20 replies to this topic

[Nik Reaper]

As it is each missile does 1.6 ( 1.8 as has been shown ) damage per hit, and even without artemis if the target is in the open, which alpine mostly is , most find there target and even with one AMS still do the most damage in the game considering heat, weight and crit. space.

As has been noted they are most efficient when boated so you usually don't have 15 of them flaying at you solo... it's usually 2x20 + 2x10 or 2x15 , so a single barrage of 60 to 70 missiles does from 96 to 112 spread damage but mostly on the upper , torso part of the mech.

The increase to the damage was made during the time Lrm flight path and homing was being tuned as they use to be easily dodged and the spread was too wide so to compensate they upped the damage that did hit , but now even with out artemis, during indirect fire they still mostly hit and the damage is ... well saying unbalanced seems to be an understatement.

So back to the question , when will Lrm 20 do 20 damage again?

Edited by Nik Reaper, 24 February 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[Daggett]

I have no problem with LRM damage because of those things:

• Its very easy to dodge them. I never use AMS and get hit by LRMs very, very rarely and in the past 1000 games i never was missiled down to death.
  
  The rare occasions i'll take more than 30dmg from LRms in a match have all been my own fault by running into the open with not enough information about the enemy.
  
• LRM boating gets punished by fast mechs and ECM.
  
  Once inside the ECM bubble, the LRM boat cannot fire at anything, even TAG won't work here.
  
  I'll tried this a few times. Though i am able to deal quite some damage to unwary enemies running in the open, it was nearly always the case that some ECM mech came too close and prevented me from doing any further damage.
  
  And when i'm running mediums or lights, i look out for those LRM trails and if the way is clear, the LRM boat usually is toast.

Therefore the high damage (edit: and dummies that run into them) is currently the only thing that makes LRMs viable in my opinion.

And boating them seems to only work reliably when you are in a premade where you can rely on protection and ECM counter.
And even then they can still be evaded.

Personally i fear SRM6 way more than LRMs because they do the second-most damage per ton while cannot be evaded or disrupted.

Edited by Daggett, 24 February 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

So in order to counter the argument you say using lights and mediums is the way? So you are of the workaround mentality rather than address the problem?

In premades I played the ecm is easily countered with other ecm because, which premade goes out with out at leas 2... and your argument sticks as long as there is cover to hide behind and your fast... which about 50% of the mechs usually played are not, and even if all those things stand as easily countered ,what justification do you have to an ability to mount more than 100 dmg per cycle easily on a single mech at long range?

As I see it giving them 70 which doesn't overheat them and can fire indirect seems enough.

Edit: Btw Lrm's were never the mech artillery, they are a harassment tool and a way to strike in to the back lines of a group, as they should spread enough to not do the full damage , much like srms at near max range, with artemis there to help a bit if line of sight is available. Arrow IV is the mech killing missile and it should rain death to mechs.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 24 February 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[Daggett]

Nik Reaper, on 24 February 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

So in order to counter the argument you say using lights and mediums is the way? So you are of the workaround mentality rather than address the problem?


In premades I played the ecm is easily countered with other ecm because, which premade goes out with out at leas 2... and your argument sticks as long as there is cover to hide behind and your fast... which about 50% of the mechs usually played are not, and even if all those things stand as easily countered ,what justification do you have to an ability to mount more than 100 dmg per cycle easily on a single mech at long range?

Nope, i say staying in cover is the primary way to counter LRMs which is available to every Mech. The slower you are the less open space you can cross without risking LRM hits. By following this rule even an Atlas can be LRM safe most of the time.

One of my favorite mechs is a rather slow Stalker. And even against LRM-heavy enemies and without ECM buddies, they simply can't hit me because i choose my paths carefully enough to not be cought in open space for too long.
Lights, Mediums and ECM are the dangers of boating LRMs.
In my eyes it's totally fair that if i boat the most devastating weapon in the game, i gain the disadvatage to auto-lose to any fast mech.

Another problem why i currently would never boat LRMs is the following:
As soon as any mech is attacking you (which will happen in most games), you are forced to defend yourself with rather weak secondary weapons. During this time your damage potential is neutralized. This is a huge disadvantage for any LRM-boat which do not apply to most other weapons.

So the very rare occasions where an LRM boat is able to deal damage at all, should be quite rewarding in my eyes.
Of cause, if the enemy team all run in the open and no one attacks the LRM boat, then they deserve to be missiled to death just like they deserve to be sniped to death....


So that's my main justification why i have no fear from 1.8 dmg per hit (yep, they do 1.8 instead of 1.6 ).

Nik Reaper, on 24 February 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Edit: Btw Lrm's were never the mech artillery, they are a harassment tool and a way to strike in to the back lines of a group, as they should spread enough to not do the full damage , much like srms at near max range, with artemis there to help a bit if line of sight is available. Arrow IV is the mech killing missile and it should rain death to mechs.

I agree with that. But your suggestion of only reducing the damage will not do the trick because it would simply reduce LRMs to a weapon no one would longer use.

But when tweaking other parameters in conjunction, the world looks different.
For example you could make them travel faster when reducing their damage. This way hiding from them would be harder and the LRM user would score more hits, but less devastating ones. Or you could let spread them more. There are many possibilities.

And personally i like their current role. They indeed do harass the enemy. Whenever i see "Incoming" i have to slow down or even stop my advance. This is a feature of harassment which is not to be underestimated.
LRMs forces you to chose your path carefully.
And if you do, you have nothing to fear from them.

Edited by Daggett, 24 February 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

lol!

[Nik Reaper]

When you say they harass , you must mean if they hit they devastate , right now they are like a 6 ppc stalker but without such a high heat output that they don't need to shutdown after every alpha if they get a lock, 6 ppc = 60 dmg, 70 missiles = 112 dmg , a bit spred out but mostly torso hits.

It is true that a Lrm boat is not guarantied death in a match , but it's similar to facing a 2xac20 cat at short range, you need to do a lot more than he does to win that engagement.

Edit: lovely so it's 1.8 , well it's a good thing they did 2x armor, too bad they didn't up the damage of ALL OTHER weapons about x2....

Edited by Nik Reaper, 24 February 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[Critical Fumble]

Nik Reaper, on 24 February 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Edit: lovely so it's 1.8 , well it's a good thing they did 2x armor, too bad they didn't up the damage of ALL OTHER weapons about x2....

I've been pointing this out some. You'd think that there might be a firing system issue here. . .

[JudgeDeathCZ]

As you can see I am mostly LRM player.
Now I am XPing up Trebuchets.Now opening basics on 4th missile variant(3C I think) and if I had over 500 dmg once per 20 matches then I am lucky(I use 2xLRM15 and 4-6 Tons of ammo).ECM just screw me up.Sometimes I do not even shoot out all ammo bcuz ECM do not let me maintain lock so long my mIssiles can reach target and even with TAG its so hard to keep enemy mech locked...Mostly I end match with like 250-300 dmg with 2 tons of ammo shooted on enemy.Which should be in your calculations 648 dmg...where are my dmg please?
That means those players dodging my missiles and using cover and/or ECM are better than you and you are noob who came to cry on forums bcuz you cross water in forest colony alone in Atlas at 30 kph.
Kkthxbay...

EDIT:If you do not play LRM boat you have no idea how flustrating can it be right no.I see whole team charging on us but I can not get any lock bcuz there are 2 DDCs leading chargé and 2 ravens-3L circling me.Right now game is about brawling all the day and FOTM mech is splatcat supported by any ECM mech.Today we encountered 2xDDC 2x3L 3xSplatcat and Dragon...guess what?I did whole 9(NINE) dmg and it was only by lasers and SRM2 before I was obliterated in 3 sec(be4 my weapons reloaded).Yea thats how I should play this game now.But you know what?I refuse to play it like 99% ppl out there.Even if playing LRM support player is sometimes flustrating I sill like...ppl like you who never played LRM boat since ECM patch will never understand...

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 24 February 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[Deathlike]

The LRM Damage increase is a response to people being smart most of the time when LRMs are fired. Unless you increase the speed that LRMs travel, it will almost never receive a damage nerf.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 February 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 24 February 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

That means those players dodging my missiles and using cover and/or ECM are better than you and you are noob who came to cry on forums bcuz you cross water in forest colony alone in Atlas at 30 kph.
Kkthxbay...

Yeah very mature, you must be god Lrm player, because you must have killed me with you'r lrms.... and no I have no atlai . Grow up and attack opinions not people you don't even know, you wuss X) . ( I had to do it, topics with flaming get more views ) .

Anywho, I support changes to ecm (making longer lockon time but more missiles missing and allowing lockon always ) , increased Lrm speed, but the raw dmg of Lrm has to go down, just because most ppl still mostly play pug means nothing to the greater metagame of 8v8 that have no problems countering ecm and using tag well also with the advent of large maps that will soon be coming and alpine, Lrm are not a harassing tool but a plain main damage dealer, that overperformes any other weapon per ton and crit.

Edit: One thought also came to me, why should Lrm should be equally usable in ever situation? It does suck that we can't select which map we drop on, or in which mech , but brawlers were the first choice till now , if you go brawler and get alpine , well not a good time.
It's just that most maps so far are brawler centric, which should change in the coming months and we should see much more use for max range lrm on maps with less cover , so I wounder how many will say that Lrm's are underpowered when open battles start being a lot more frequent.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 24 February 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[Lugh]

I imagine it'll be tuned that way once you learn to equip AMS and dodge behind cover.

[Nik Reaper]

Lugh, on 24 February 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

I imagine it'll be tuned that way once you learn to equip AMS and dodge behind cover.

Care to elaborate on that a bit more? What will be tuned?
Also to mention it, AMS is very weak to all missiles , srms more so, but to anything larger than lrm 10 it's effect is almost nonexistent, well a full team of AMS equiped mechs do reduce a good amount of a 70 missile swarm, but it's very situational as what happens when they have 2 Lrm stalkers firing, and all must be tightly grouped for it to work which is not very advisable most of the time.

[Lugh]

Nik Reaper, on 24 February 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Care to elaborate on that a bit more? What will be tuned?
Also to mention it, AMS is very weak to all missiles , srms more so, but to anything larger than lrm 10 it's effect is almost nonexistent, well a full team of AMS equiped mechs do reduce a good amount of a 70 missile swarm, but it's very situational as what happens when they have 2 Lrm stalkers firing, and all must be tightly grouped for it to work which is not very advisable most of the time.

Sure thing. Fact is that MOST players do not value AMS at all, so MOST players don't fit it into your build. TWO AMS running in concert standing in the open will reduce entire LRM 20 salvos to about nil.

Those same two AMS with mechs manuvering to use hills and other cover to help block will reduce the damage to 0.

Those that complain most about LRMs are either :
a) not utilizing AMS at all.
or
not utilizing cover.
AND
often c) all of the above.

[Nik Reaper]

Lugh, on 24 February 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

"TWO AMS running in concert standing in the open will reduce entire LRM 20 salvos to about nil.

Those same two AMS with mechs manuvering to use hills and other cover to help block will reduce the damage to 0."

Where exactly did you see 2x20 and 2x15 fired together get reduced to half with 2 ams? I will need to see a video of it as from personal experience as I mount AMS it shoots down about 10 of those 70 incoming, so those 2 will mby shoot down 1/3 rather then 1/2 and again , many drops happen with more than 1 missile boat .
Seriously stop the whole Lrm damage is not to high it;s just that people are in the open... read the much more open maps coming soon part, Lrms as they are now are the most damaging weapon in game, sure it has counters but there are drops with no ecm.
As things are now, on a large map like alpine or an open one like caustic it's rock-paper-scissors who has more ecm, more missile boats, more lights with ecm ... not really good for gameplay.
The bad implementation of Ecm, slow flight time and small maps gimped Lrm before , but some of those are changing and some will , so there will be no reason for Lrm to be the most damaging weapon in game, as they are there for harass rather than plain outright killing, at least in lore.

[Koshirou]

Daggett, on 24 February 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Personally i fear SRM6 way more than LRMs because they do the second-most damage per ton while cannot be evaded or disrupted.

Sure they can be evaded, you're just not good enough. I evade SRMs all the time, even in my Atlas with a 200 engine.

Now that the "I'm so 1337!" part of the conversation has been settled, can we maybe focus on the issue at hand? It doesn't concern you anyway, does it, since you manage never to be hit by LRMs anyway, and thus should not care whether they do 1.8 damage or 1 damage.

My opinion: LRMs should be faster and less easily dodged. They should also be less effected by ECM, making ECM less of a binary counter. In turn, their damage should be tuned down somewhat. Probably not all the way down to 1, that would give them a big disadvantage compared to more tightly focused weapons. Maybe 1.2 or so.

[Nik Reaper]

So, well now we do have some insight and it seems to be: before more large maps come in and some tweaks to missile speed and tracking comes in ppl wouldn't consider using them with any lower damage... too bad devs really don't take much said on the forums to heart.

[Abivard]

let me guess, your always dying to LRM's?

[HarmAssassin]

Just to clear up something said above, an AMS will knock out about 5 missiles from an incoming salvo. Two AMS will therefore take out 10. If someone fires 60, two AMS will still result in 50 LRMs getting through.

Anyone that says 2 AMS can take out 20 LRMs doesn't know what they're talking about.

[Deathlike]

HarmAssassin, on 24 February 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Just to clear up something said above, an AMS will knock out about 5 missiles from an incoming salvo. Two AMS will therefore take out 10. If someone fires 60, two AMS will still result in 50 LRMs getting through.

Anyone that says 2 AMS can take out 20 LRMs doesn't know what they're talking about.

I think the issue perhaps is how the big the missile slots are... as some only shoot 10 missiles will cause an lrm20 to shoot 2 volleys equivalent to 2 separate lrm10 shots....

Outside of that, AMS is pretty much mandatory for assault mechs...

[machinech]

Nik Reaper, on 24 February 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

So in order to counter the argument you say using lights and mediums is the way? So you are of the workaround mentality rather than address the problem?

To be clear without intent to be offensive, the idea that LRM's are currently a problem is rather subjective. Many feel they are not, while many do. Yes, LRM's can be a problem. Point of fact, so can every other weapon used properly in a situation optimal for the weapons purpose. SRM's, AC's, PPC's, etc... all can be a -problem-. For the system work as it was intended, they are meant to be a problem for someone and a boon to another. In every matchup there is a winner and a loser. Someone has to lose, and sometimes that person will be you. I don't think being on the short end of things from time to time calls for a nerf. Should you find a particular weapon to be an issue -all- the time, at this point in the game, you might want to consider your tactics before calling foul. Tactics and adaptation could be viewed as a -work around- sort of mentality, but that too, is subjective. If you personally don't like LRM's, your sort of in the wrong game. BT as a franchise has always had them, they like many other weapons are rather trademark, and one might as well get used to them.

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In premades I played the ecm is easily countered with other ecm because, which premade goes out with out at leas 2... and your argument sticks as long as there is cover to hide behind and your fast... which about 50% of the mechs usually played are not, and even if all those things stand as easily countered ,what justification do you have to an ability to mount more than 100 dmg per cycle easily on a single mech at long range?

Using your logic, LRM's are rather easily countered with ECM. But discussion of ECM use an balance are another topic entirely. Throwing the two together simply makes the topic complex to the point of subjective obscurity. Currently PGI is working on finding a balance, granted not as fast as many would like. For reference, Virtual World ran battletech for years and LRM balance was an issue until the very end when they finally stopped running sites. So be prepared to strap in an find a way to contend.

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As I see it giving them 70 which doesn't overheat them and can fire indirect seems enough.

Fair enough, as long as you can remember that this is subjective, oppinion, and many will not agree, and still others will.

Quote

Edit: Btw Lrm's were never the mech artillery, they are a harassment tool and a way to strike in to the back lines of a group, as they should spread enough to not do the full damage , much like srms at near max range, with artemis there to help a bit if line of sight is available. Arrow IV is the mech killing missile and it should rain death to mechs.

Subjective, personal oppinion, heard, and understood. I hope for your sake that they either balance them to your liking or you find a way to come some sort of personal peace over the issue. Time will tell which.

Edited by machinech, 24 February 2013 - 06:36 PM.