12 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

I've made tons of suggestions about electronic warfare before, that usually read out like essays, so here's one that's not as long:

Buffing Beagle Active Probe to where it can see anything in a radius around it, including 'Mechs behind mountains or buildings normal sensor cannot see;

moving any sort of missile defeat from ECM to a third Ghost target mode, which is countered by Beagle Active Probe.

ECM hides enemy movement from Beagle; Beagle denies ECM's disruption of missile locks.

That way we get 1.5 ton pieces of equipment that can work to have an advantage over each other, and defeat each other depending on player use.

If PPC's jam out ECM, PPC's also jam out Beagle.

Also allow Beagle to get a detailed readout of a target, in a picture in picture display like the command console that describes every bit of detail about the enemy, from locations of weapons, engine type and size, ammunition loadout, ect. ECM in disrupt mode hides this information from Beagle.

Information denial over an entire grid square is too much, and allowing targets in sensor range to be targeted, but not identified would go a long ways to qualm remaining complaints about ECM; ECM's third mode would still provide protection against missiles, but also be counter-able by a similarly expensive 1.5 ton piece of equipment, instead of a 7 ton PPC.

[Eddrick]

I think this belongs in "Suggestions". I think the poll may also requier third answer for people that do not agree or disagree.

I'm ok with the idea.

[FrostCollar]

This poll really needs an intermediate option. I agree with some of this

DocBach, on 05 March 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Buffing Beagle Active Probe to where it can see anything in a radius around it, including 'Mechs behind mountains or buildings normal sensor cannot see;

This might take restricting BAP to certain battlemechs, but it sounds interesting. Yes, I'm for this.

DocBach, on 05 March 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

moving any sort of missile defeat from ECM to a third Ghost target mode, which is countered by Beagle Active Probe.

We don't need the old Streakcat returning from the grave with an extra piece of 1.5 ton equipment. I'm open to BAP mitigating the ECM effect somewhat, but I don't think it should cancel it entirely. However, I also think TAG should allow the carrying mech to lock onto ECM mechs within the bubble and for NARC to not be jammed by ECM, so what do I know.

Here's an alternate suggestion: BAP has two modes - one to counter ECM partially and one for its usual effects.

DocBach, on 05 March 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

If PPC's jam out ECM, PPC's also jam out Beagle.

Yes.

DocBach, on 05 March 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Also allow Beagle to get a detailed readout of a target, in a picture in picture display like the command console that describes every bit of detail about the enemy, from locations of weapons, engine type and size, ammunition loadout, ect. ECM in disrupt mode hides this information from Beagle.

This is my favorite suggestion out of all of these. If nothing else, I really would like this to be added somehow. It would make BAP useful for snipers and might even make crit seeking weapons more viable than now. If you know where the SSRMs are kept, an MG might even be useful.

DocBach, on 05 March 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Information denial over an entire grid square is too much, and allowing targets in sensor range to be targeted, but not identified would go a long ways to qualm remaining complaints about ECM; ECM's third mode would still provide protection against missiles, but also be counter-able by a similarly expensive 1.5 ton piece of equipment, instead of a 7 ton PPC.

The trouble with ECM is that it isn't expensive from a weight or crit-slot standpoint. That's why I'm much more supportive of giving BAP new and interesting modes than making it a straight out counter to ECM. Most builds could spare 1.5 tons, many builds might add them, and then ECM's mostly gone.

Edited by FrostCollar, 05 March 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[DocBach]

FrostCollar, on 05 March 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

The trouble with ECM is that it isn't expensive from a weight or crit-slot standpoint. That's why I'm much more supportive of giving BAP new and interesting modes than making it a straight out counter to ECM. Most builds could spare 1.5 tons, many builds might add them, and then ECM's mostly gone.

Right now ECM provides a stealth field, and a missile defeat system in one neat package. Splitting up its capabilities and allowing a similarly weighted and sized piece of equipment that counters one mode but is countered in another seems like a better balance than what we currently have, where you need to use skill based counters to defeat a completely passive ECM system.

[FrostCollar]

DocBach, on 05 March 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Right now ECM provides a stealth field, and a missile defeat system in one neat package. Splitting up its capabilities and allowing a similarly weighted and sized piece of equipment that counters one mode but is countered in another seems like a better balance than what we currently have, where you need to use skill based counters to defeat a completely passive ECM system.

I agree. However, I don't think it's ideal. Right now if you can carry the former, it's essentially required to carry it. If this suggestion is implemented it will be essentially required to carry the latter for its advantages and to defeat the former. At the end of the day, builds have become a bit more restrictive.

[DocBach]

Ghost Target mode should have its current functions reduced; instead of a complete denial of missile locks, it increases lock time for guided weaponry, so it provides protection from missiles, but not absolute negation of them. It would be a useful feature, but not an invulnerability shield.

[FrostCollar]

DocBach, on 05 March 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Ghost Target mode should have its current functions reduced; instead of a complete denial of missile locks, it increases lock time for guided weaponry, so it provides protection from missiles, but not absolute negation of them. It would be a useful feature, but not an invulnerability shield.

I'd be fine with this, but isn't this already in the game? I'm pretty sure ECM also increases missile lock on times significantly, but since it's so rare to get a lock on a mech with ECM active that it's usually not visible.

(Alsostreaksstillneedtobechangedinsomewaytoreducetheirdominanceinlightversuslightfights,ECMornot)

[DocBach]

ECM currently disallows targeting unless the target is hit with a TAG; proposed ECM changes would make it so enemy 'Mechs are target-able but not identified. Ghost Target mode would provide protection against missile locks, but would require the ECM 'Mech to sacrifice protection from Artemis/Beagle/Narc/Target sharing.

[Strum Wealh]

Admittedly, I voted "no" on the poll, but for lack of an intermediate choice.

My arguments very much mirror those in FrostCollar's initial post - the "issue" with Beagle is not with Guardian being arguably over-featured, but Beagle itself being under-featured.

[DocBach]

PGI's made a new edict that says our polls can only be "yes" or "no."

Kind of limiting in choices for polls, but we're free to discuss our thoughts beyond that with posts.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I voted "yes" ... given the option, I would have voted, "yes, but ..."

I agree that ECM needs a better counter than TAG, PPC or "MOAR ECM". BAP is a logical choice (particularly if its deployment is limited to certain mechs in a similar manner as ECM).

I recommend a gradual approach to adding features to BAP and/or nerfs to ECM. Add or tweak something once every major patch (two weeks) so that decent data can be collected to determine the impact ... but PGI, please let us know that you are considering / planning / evaluating something!

While ECM use in PUGs is on the overall decline, I've dropped many times into a group that has no ECM ... it's not a guarantee that we will lose, but it is a much more significant factor than it should be.

[Joker Two]

Agreed, perhaps with the caveat that BAP can detect the general location of ECM fields and other BAPs. Add an option to turn ECMs and BAPs off entirely.

[Monky]

For Beagle Active Probe; it needs to be able to detect mechs. That's its job. When IN RANGE of the enemy ECM, it should be overridden, so long as the ECM is in disrupt mode. When not in range, it can detect any mech covered by another mech's ECM, and boost the sensors of friendlies that ARE affected by ECM. This is both an in-cannon effect, and a practical gameplay balance that yin and yangs the two pieces of equipment. On top of this, an equipment rework is needed - either allow all mechs ECM and BAP, or restrict both. Having BAP open to all and ECM only open to some is not going to work for a rebalance.

Also, increase 'detection of shut down enemy mechs' to 180 meters. No reason to half-arse it on that feature.

Edited by Monky, 06 March 2013 - 02:30 AM.