140 replies to this topic

[GreenHell]

There has been a huge debate in the general discussion (title "Weapon convergence") where everyone has been suggesting ways to implement a balanced method for targeting, and preventing the alpha-strike syndrome that has plagued MW4. I'm sure you know the story about how MW4 mechs were infinitely accurate, and this caused players to outfit their mechs with many pinpoint accuracy weapons and target the same spot with a single alpha-strike in the hopes of "one shoting" the enemy (or close to it anyways).

Many people were fans of the "cone of fire" in order to combat this. However, I see this as a rule that would artificially limit the skill level of the game, in the same way that MW4's targeting method caused the skill level to be artificially raised (since everyone had perfect aim).

I propose instead, that mechs should sway, bob, and (for the heaviest mechs) have huge jarring footsteps. This would cause the aim of the mech to be constantly moving with it. Scout mechs would have the issue of swaying and bobing at top speed, which would encourage them to slow down a bit if they wanted to actually fight in a serious manner. For mechs like the Atlas, it is a huge mech that weighs 100 tons. It would have giant, halting, jarring steps that would affect your aim every time the mech took a step. This would encourage pilots to stop moving if they wanted to get off a perfect shot.

But as we all know, "Speed is life. You go slow, you die" That's why I think this method will encourage people to not stop, not slow down, but instead speed up and learn to fight THROUGH the bobing and swaying and huge steps. This method would cause players to have a hard time fighting at first, but with practice and skill they could learn to use their mechs better and thus be able to land those tough shots, even while the mech is traveling at cruising speed! Thus, I propose a system that does NOT have a cone of fire, but in return has a much higher player skill cap than any system with "CoF" effects.

Also, unlocking arm aiming from torso aiming would raise the skill cap as well. I know this leads to another problem where people wont want to torso twist, or won't realize they can (with new players). To combat this, I believe the solution is the have the torso aiming be static (locked to dead center) and have the arms be aimed with a system similar to what "Steel Battalion" used. Two reticules, one representing the players desired position, and the second reticule representing the actual position of the arms. Having the second reticule follow the players reticule at a speed determined by the speed of the engines/servos/myomer strength/etc... This would create a more realistic system, raise the player skill cap by allowing them to aim in different places, and reduce the effects of players "flicking" with mouse controls trying to use techniques from more unrealistic FPS games.

That's my suggestion for targeting. I got my inspiration from many places. I will keep an open mind and won't "expect" you to do anything I just said. I trust that the system you do use will be great in its own way. In any case, that's what I think. Take from it what you will.

-Tony





EDIT: This thread is very old now. I've read ALL of this thread three times and I have more knowledge of targeting than I ever expected to have in my life. Thanks to everyone for your input.

Edited by GreenHell, 27 December 2011 - 09:51 AM.

[That Guy]

I agree with what you said mostly. I am a little uncomfortable with a COF in this type game.

also to add a little, things like how long it takes to aim something should be taken into account depending on the mech weight. for the heavy's and assaults torso twisting and arm movement should be a little slower due to inertia, wile the meds and lights will be able to zip around alot faster.

[theginganinja]

This actually makes pretty good sense - I had been going for the cone of fire, but this idea grew on me pretty quick. I do think, however, that targeting should be affected by heat - your turning/aiming times should be slowed down, but you should also perhaps gain a cone of fire as your heat goes up, representing malfunctions in your targeting computer from the heat ******** things up

[Lorebot]

Personally I'd like to see a system of aiming more akin to Armored Core than the previous MW games. Now I know that statement may seem a bit alarming to hardcore MW fans so let me explain.

For Torso weapons you should have to aim using a reticle with a small area of lockon around the reticle. For Arm mounted weapons they should be able to track a target within their field of effect which isn't linked to your reticle but to your field of view. If you look to the right without torso twisting your right arm should track to the right and follow you, locking on to targets you can see. This would allow you to engage multiple targets effectively at once. All lockon fire should be controlled by your mech's electronics, a targeting computer, and by your own general Gunnery skill and by your specialized skill with the weapon mounted in the arm, and of course by the varying factors of your mech's current position and/or activity. The better your electronics and the more you've increased your stats and skills the closer to dead center your fire should be. Basically think about it like auto targeting in a FPS game in reverse, the better your stats are the more likely you are to land a hit dead center at the reticle with torso mounted weapons and with arm mounted weapons the more likely you are to hit dead center at the chosen target. Now, you should have the option of linking your arm weapons to the torso weapon reticle so that you can take any sort of targeting computer error out of the equation if you're focusing on a single target, but if your target is faster than your torso twist you should be able to unlink them cause your arms will track faster if perhaps less accurately because they're more dependent on your targeting computer than your Gunnery and skills stats. Different targeting computers should be calibrated to work better at different ranges, so trying to use a machine gun with a Targeting computer calibrated for medium or long range combat should be an inaccurate hail of bullets, not a pinpoint stream of death.

If you think about it, you're riding a 20+ ton robot with a bunch of moving parts, it's not going to be able to keep everything pointed dead center on target without some sort of targeting computer calibrated to keep them all pointed there if they're not welded into place. Just think of the amount of kinetic energy and motion involved with a light mech and then imagine how much more swaying and jarring starts and stops you'll have in an Atlas. These aren't Gundams, they're not graceful, they're giant walking tanks and unless you're a genius pilot or have some awesome piloting assist computer you're not going to be wining any prizes for subtlety. When an Atlas walks the ground shakes, and so do all the weapons it has.

[Damocles]

@OP
this is exactly the basis I want this game to have for targeting. I DO like possibly having upwards of 3 separate reticules floating/moving/jarring around my HUD and constantly trying to reestablish center-aim but one would be just fine too.

[Chembot]

Is dual mouse support possible for a game like this? ie, two mouses (mice?) are plugged into the players PC, and by hitting say a manual arm control hotkey, the player can jump to dual mouse mode whereby the left mouse controls the left arm, and right for the right. You could then have left click firing that arms weapons, and right click opening/cloging the fist (if your mech has hands). The bigger and heaver the mech, the slower the arm actuators respond (for animation purposes).
Has dual mouse even been done before??
Sounds weird, I know.

[GreenHell]

@Chembot
If you had two mice attached to your computer you would be moving the 1 cursor with both. It would take special programing to support two mice.

@Damocles
Thanks man!

@Irishwarrior & That Guy
I completely agree with you that heat and weight of mech should affect your movement and targeting. I was just focusing on the main issues that were brought up in the discussion from before.

[VYCanis]

I could easily see increased heat definitely sluggish, through a number of possible means too.

aim going sluggish and lagging behind what you are telling it to do, making moving targets harder to track

aim getting shakey and twitchy making precision and sustained fire a nightmare

aim getting a sort of drunken momentum, where your movements are magnified and tends to slide past where you want it to go.

[Mchawkeye]

i like the idea of targeting being affected by movement and such like, and separate reticules for arm based weaponry as opposed to loading up in the heavier armoured torso; I can see the arm weaponry being more gyro-stabilised that the torso based ones. This would also help, to make the arms a more viable slot when customising your mech; but that all depends on the method of customisation they employ, of course.

The only issues I can for see is how separate movable cross-hairs work effectively with joysticks (being a HOTAS fan myself) and I don't want the reticule to jump around too much or it'll become frustrating and unrealistic. It's definitely preferable to the other options that have been floating around the forum, though.

[diana]

Can't say I like multiple reticules and I like separate reticules for each weapon even less. I think there should be just one reticule that stays in the center of the screen, but changes its size\appearance depending on the chosen weapon.

Maybe make a ghosted crosshair that shows what the arm are aiming at to make keeping your aim steady somewhat easier.

As for alpha strike, arms will need some time to align themselves, so this will hopefully lessen the amount of jump strikers and not make it the obvious choice.

But, I kinda like that if you put lasers not in a single battery on torso, then the shots won't converge and some of them will miss, making the weapon placement important and making people think of using a single heavy weapon instead of a group of small.
But then it might make some mechs better than others just because they offer better placement.

Edited by diana, 07 November 2011 - 07:01 AM.

[TheForce]

Have to post this again...

Here's how AC20's become useless with group fire, concentrated damage and pinpoint accuracy:

1 AC20: range 270 meters, ammo 5, tonnage 15, damage 20, heat 7
4 Med. Lasers: range 270 meters, ammo unlimited, tonnage 4, damage 20, heat 12

So the first thing I'm gonna do with my hunchback is strip the AC20 and add a frak load of med lasers, heat sinks, and armor.

But in Btech the med laser damage is distributed all over, and your lasers are not as deadly as an AC20.

I don't like multiple crosshairs either.

After 8+ years of playing mech games that make grouped smaller weapons as good as the big ones, I would prefer this:

- whenever you fire a weapon group at a target, damage is applied randomly.
- give me an option to aim ONE weapon and apply that weapon's damage with pinpoint accuracy.

Edited by theforce, 07 November 2011 - 10:13 AM.

[azov]

@OP MWLL already has a sway and bobbing effect. After playing it for some time, I have as well as others conditioned ourselves to ignore and counter act the movement. The same thing occurs when you hit jumpjets that was supposed to make it difficult to aim.

Reposting from other thread

I have made a crappy paint drawing of what I think will work, and almost everybody can agree on.



The radius of the circles will decrease with either a Targeting computer, or with skill over time as described by the developers.
This method benefits both the quick and agile mech as well as the the heavier and slow mechs.

Edited by azov, 07 November 2011 - 10:49 AM.

[Tweaks]

I REALLY like your example azov!

One thing though, how would you manage torso mounted SSRM's? Since they would home on their target when they get a lock, I assume you wouldn't need the torso to actually face the target if you can put a crosshair on it, no?

Edited by Tweaks, 07 November 2011 - 01:22 PM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

azov, on 07 November 2011 - 10:46 AM, said:

@OP MWLL already has a sway and bobbing effect. After playing it for some time, I have as well as others conditioned ourselves to ignore and counter act the movement. The same thing occurs when you hit jumpjets that was supposed to make it difficult to aim.

Reposting from other thread

I have made a crappy paint drawing of what I think will work, and almost everybody can agree on.



The radius of the circles will decrease with either a Targeting computer, or with skill over time as described by the developers.
This method benefits both the quick and agile mech as well as the the heavier and slow mechs.

So kind of like the WOT turret lag reticule, but with three parts? Neat enough. I'd still want to limit the pinpoint fire to chain fire or some sort of zoom mode even so. Make large damage packet weapons really mean something.

[Devlin Stone]

Some of this has been said, but I think some things could use a bit of clarification.

A Mech should have a single targeting reticle, and multiple hardpoint indicators. You are only moving the targeting reticle with the cursor, but with your weapon hardpoints independently tracking towards it.

Hardpont positions are dependent on their physical mounting on the mech, they are NOT able to magically fire in any direction at any time. Hardpoints are each assigned a "base" tracking speed, and motion constraints. Traverse speed for arms would, of course be quickened, but otherwise hardpoint traverse speed should vary inversely with assigned weapon tonnage. Hardpoint indicators would gradually normalize to the forward firing position when they do not have a target, and track towards the targeting reticule when they do. This would eliminate twitch-fire style play. Some specialized hardpoints (such as the Hollander's shoulder mount), would have tracking fully or partially restricted to a section, such that they are aimed by moving the torso of the mech. Otherwise you should be able to change between a torso centered or free floating targeting reticule at your choosing.
Weapons within a hardpoint should be mounted and fired in parallel, with spacing being relative to the weapon size. This helps spreads light weapons fire over an area without ridiculous random fire cones. Actual weapon's fire spread should depend on the weapon, it's condition, recoil, and Mech movement (being interpreted through the hardpoint's location dependency.) Hardpoint indicators would have to size up and down at different target ranges to show weapon spread.

So visually something like this :

[azov]

Tweaks, on 07 November 2011 - 01:19 PM, said:

I REALLY like your example azov!

One thing though, how would you manage torso mounted SSRM's? Since they would home on their target when they get a lock, I assume you wouldn't need the torso to actually face the target if you can put a crosshair on it, no?

Locks can be achieved by the outside reticle. A red lock box well appear on the target closest to the pinpoint if more than one target appears. While moving, you do get a larger lock field, the time for lock-on could increase.

[Pht]

Players should not be given control of the convergence (concentration) of their 'Mech's weapons fire.

The mech does the aiming and the basic concept of battlemech piloting is to keep it as simple as possible.

Fiddling with firing cones and targeting computer convergence factors is counterproductive.

Besides which, this game is called "Mechwarrior" - it's supposed to be a simulation of what it's like to pilot a BattleMech in the Battletech universe - and none of this fiddling goes on there.

The pilot picks the target, and the 'Mech aims it's weapons at the target. This distinct separation is what makes Mechwarrior a game of armored combat simulation instead of ... anything else other.


How well or badly a 'Mech can target and get its weapons to concentrate under the crosshairs is already laid out; there's no need for cones of fire and all that jazz. 'Mech performance factors are well known and have been for decades; they're there in black and white in the Lore.

Look at the firing 'Mechs conditions and environment, look at the ability of the weapons it's trying to hit with, look at the target 'Mech's condition (running, jumping, etc). Look at how well a 'Mech can handle these conditions and calculate a hit/miss for each weapon fired. Than, look at how well a 'Mech can concentrate its various weapons under the reticules target and calculate exactly where to have each weapon hit, resulting in weapons fire concentration/convergence.

Quality of weapons lock can be indicated by color coding the reticule and "solid" lock can be further indicated with audibles. There's no need for a dancing, resizing, or multiple reticules, which have caused misery when they've been implemented.

Edited by Pht, 07 November 2011 - 04:59 PM.

[Neon Noble]

Now, I'm no veteran to Battletech, but there is one thing that seems like it isn't being factored into these aiming suggestions...

Wouldn't the Neurohelmet offer some of the convergence calculations in addition to the targeting computer? Obviously the Neurohelmet's main purpose is balance, but, ultimately, it is also used to adjust the basic input from the MechWarrior's controls. So if the pilot aimed at a target, would that not mean that the Neurohelmet would then take the input from the sensors to adjust the weapons toward the target, in addition to the pilot's own physical input?

Regardless of whether or not what I just stated above is valid or true, I do like the concept of 'Mech movement disrupting accuracy, as well as the near-removal of pinpoint-accurate weapons, although as far as lasers go, wherever they're pointed is where they should go, and nowhere else. The 'cone of fire' concept has its merits, of course, and if implemented as azov illustrated, it would probably save my precious Light 'Mechs when it matters, especially since getting hit by everything ever with no margin of error kind of sucks when trying to do battle with 'Mechs that are 50 tons heavier. The mere idea of that chance to miss, like in the tabletop game, certainly makes things more fair for everyone.

[Pht]

Neon Noble, on 07 November 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

Now, I'm no veteran to Battletech, but there is one thing that seems like it isn't being factored into these aiming suggestions...

Wouldn't the Neurohelmet offer some of the convergence calculations in addition to the targeting computer? Obviously the Neurohelmet's main purpose is balance, but, ultimately, it is also used to adjust the basic input from the MechWarrior's controls. So if the pilot aimed at a target, would that not mean that the Neurohelmet would then take the input from the sensors to adjust the weapons toward the target, in addition to the pilot's own physical input?

No, the neurohelmet is not involved in targeting. The raw data input needed for that sort of thing would be, IMO, above the level the helmets can put into a human brain without cooking it.

http://www.sarna.net...The_Neurohelmet

Quote

Regardless of whether or not what I just stated above is valid or true, I do like the concept of 'Mech movement disrupting accuracy, as well as the near-removal of pinpoint-accurate weapons, although as far as lasers go, wherever they're pointed is where they should go, and nowhere else. The 'cone of fire' concept has its merits, of course, and if implemented as azov illustrated, it would probably save my precious Light 'Mechs when it matters, especially since getting hit by everything ever with no margin of error kind of sucks when trying to do battle with 'Mechs that are 50 tons heavier. The mere idea of that chance to miss, like in the tabletop game, certainly makes things more fair for everyone.

Lasers have to have an "on" time in order to do their rated damage, so they will tend to "slash" a bit. They don't do their damage in an instantaneous burst.

[Insaniti]

GreenHell, on 06 November 2011 - 07:57 PM, said:

Many people were fans of the "cone of fire" in order to combat this.  However, I see this as a rule that would artificially limit the skill level of the game, in the same way that MW4's targeting method caused the skill level to be artificially raised (since everyone had perfect aim).

This has been discussed to death at www.dropshipcommand.com for the last 10 years.

The most viable solution is a composite solution:

Weapon groups firing en mass (e.g., 5 Medium Lasers all at once) are resolved with a cone of fire for any weapon groups (affected by movement, heat, etc).
Single fire weapons have no cone of fire and are susceptible to the inaccuracy only of mech movement.


Thus all problems are solved.

Individual weapons can still be powerful.  Amazing pilots can still be accurate and dangerous with those powerful weapons. However,  alpha strikes aren't overpowered.

Done and done.


Insanity