241 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

Simple answer - Heat efficiency

The introduction of double heat sinks allows for big alpha strikes to fire frequently without much thought to heat managment.

Every current popular cheesebuild you can think of prior to double heat sinks was not so popular because they were very heat inefficient builds. But now they are.


I do not mind a mech with a high damage alpha strike. I really dont. What I do have a problem with is that the way heat is deisgned currently, those mechs can fire nonstop(almost) and any real mech that is made to run cool, but have a lower damage doesnt stand a chance. There needs to be a balance between these. Otherwise there is no point in making any cooler builds if every high damage alpha build can fire nonstop without heat trouble even on the hottest maps.

2 AC20's if made with single heat sinks is a mech that overheats. Double heat sinks... no overheat.
Multiple PPCs with single heat sinks is a mech that overheats quickly. Double heat sinks.... not so much.
2LRM20 or 3-4 LRM15 with single heat sinks is a mech that also shuts down quick.
3-6 SRMS with single heat sinks is also gonna shut down quickly.
3-6 large lasers same thing
9 medium lasers - same thing
(and others)

I consider all those builds viable IF they are balanced by heat. Being able to fire several times without the risk of overheating, even on the hot maps makes them overpowered.

I remember why the devs didnt make double heat sinks... actually double in the first place. Because they found that some mechs could fire nonstop. Well.. its still happening to a lesser degree, and its enough that some builds are still firing nonstop. Double heat sinks have to go to bring back balance.

Edited by Teralitha, 26 March 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Darkfire66]

TLDR: People like winning.

Also, I agree with you.

[FupDup]

Because most people like winning. Winning means killing people quicker than they can kill you. Killing people quickly means high-alpha builds and other forms of cheese.


PS: Note that I'm not excusing the behavior, I'm just explaining the thought-process being used by players.

Edited by FupDup, 25 March 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[Commander Kobold]

add penalty of some sort for alphastriking, problem solved?

[jeffsw6]

I just took the SRMs and LRMs off my Atlases and replaced them with heat sinks, and added UAC5 and AC2s to make up for the lost damage. I find that I can now kill enemies in more brawling situations than before, because I can continue firing my weapons a lot longer.

None of my 3 Atlas are alpha-strike machines. If I run into an enemy Atlas, I might die, because he can probably do more burst damage than me. But if I catch one or two enemies off-guard, I can often kill both, regardless of weight class. Now throw in some teammates and good target selection, and my K/D ratio is improving.

I encourage my enemies to keep running those 12 heat sink builds. I'm happy to keep shooting them when they are shut down or running for cover.

EDIT: Sorry, meant AC2.

Edited by jeffsw6, 25 March 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[Commander Kobold]

jeffsw6, on 25 March 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

I just took the SRMs and LRMs off my Atlases and replaced them with heat sinks, and added UAC5 and UAC2s to make up for the lost damage. I find that I can now kill enemies in more brawling situations than before, because I can continue firing my weapons a lot longer.

None of my 3 Atlas are alpha-strike machines. If I run into an enemy Atlas, I might die, because he can probably do more burst damage than me. But if I catch one or two enemies off-guard, I can often kill both, regardless of weight class. Now throw in some teammates and good target selection, and my K/D ratio is improving.

I encourage my enemies to keep running those 12 heat sink builds. I'm happy to keep shooting them when they are shut down or running for cover.

we have U/AC2s?

[BlakeAteIt]

Oh, I know!

We can set up the matchmaker so that it only launches with two teams of similar builds, and can determine if anyone is using any voip. That way, you can only play near mirror matches, all the time.

And, rather than just picking mechs AFTER we see the map, why not just have one map, that is perfectly symmetrical. And balanced for all weapons (wouldn't want the only map to be unbalanced, haha.) SO, it can be just flat, with perfect lighting. Because vision modes are OP.

Also, because [INSERT WEAPON] is op, we should trim the weapon selection down a little. Maybe to say... one.

Don't want to leave everything else balanced out, but not the different chassis, so lets put everyone in the same mech, too.

So, now everyone drops on MAP, in MECH, armed with GUN. See? Fair.

That'll be fun, right?

[Levi Strauss]

Because people don't like playing like you? Who the Hell are you to judge how someone else builds their mech?

Why are crappy pubbie builds so popular now? Why do noobs use AC2's, 5's and LRMs? You are in no place to tell the public what is "cheese" and define what is acceptable.

Stay in your lane.

- Oh, and the "skilled" players are the people that can aim well enough to use high powered, pinpoint weapons as opposed to spamming low damage crap weapons.

Edited by Levi Strauss, 25 March 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Davers]

Weapon convergence is also a large factor. But RNG mechanics are not popular on the forums (or to the Devs).

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

FupDup, on 25 March 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Because most people like winning. Winning means killing people quicker than they can kill you. Killing people quickly means high-alpha builds and other forms of cheese.


PS: Note that I'm not excusing the behavior, I'm just explaining the thought-process being used by players.

so... winning is cheese now?

[Davers]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 25 March 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

so... winning is cheese now?

Only if the other guy does it.

[Teralitha]

BlakeAteIt, on 25 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Oh, I know!

We can set up the matchmaker so that it only launches with two teams of similar builds, and can determine if anyone is using any voip. That way, you can only play near mirror matches, all the time.

And, rather than just picking mechs AFTER we see the map, why not just have one map, that is perfectly symmetrical. And balanced for all weapons (wouldn't want the only map to be unbalanced, haha.) SO, it can be just flat, with perfect lighting. Because vision modes are OP.

Also, because [INSERT WEAPON] is op, we should trim the weapon selection down a little. Maybe to say... one.

Don't want to leave everything else balanced out, but not the different chassis, so lets put everyone in the same mech, too.

So, now everyone drops on MAP, in MECH, armed with GUN. See? Fair.

That'll be fun, right?

Not a bad idea... if everything is fair and equal, then all that is left is pure skill vs skill.(yes I know you were being sarcastic, but the idea really does have merit)

[Commander Kobold]

Levi Strauss, on 25 March 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

Because people don't like playing like you? Who the Hell are you to judge how someone else builds their mech?

Why are crappy pubbie builds so popular now? Why do noobs use AC2's, 5's and LRMs? You are in no place to tell the public what is "cheese" and define what is acceptable.

Stay in your lane.

- Oh, and the "skilled" players are the people that can aim well enough to use high powered, pinpoint weapons as opposed to spamming low damage crap weapons.

low damage doesn't make a weapon crap,though I have no excuse for people who still run missiles in waves lower than 40

[Tennex]

wait i could have swore the alpha builds were about the AC20 and Gauss builds.

Previously the A1 6SRM kitty.


But right now heat isn't an issue on these alpha builds.

[CrashieJ]

BlakeAteIt, on 25 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

That'll be fun, right?

CheeseMind: "Wait, so we make it fair? AW hell naw, *FORUMRAGE*"

while I would like to see fairness in MWO in terms of teams I dont think that it wold be sustainable in a Galactic Conquest Environment which PGI is teasing to us. I hate to say it but BOATING WORKS.

what we need to do is find a way to reward more to players playing "non-cheese" against cheese as an incentive to bring players out of their comfort zone. I killed a 6Cat with a 4mg spider one time and it felt great, but I should have walked away with more.

chassis that are most used as "cheese" have a higher "bounty" on them than other chassis. and the "stocks" change from time to time forcing players to move around to other mechs or risk having the other player walk off a rich man.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

there used to be this thing called a Heat Scale, the hotter a mech ran the more bad things happened. First the mech started to run slow, then it would have a hard time aiming. Hotter still the mech moved sluggishly and can't really hit anything. This mythical heat scale punished players over time for running their mechs too hot, thus providing an incentive to keep their mechs cooler...but why do we need silly TT rules here, they're just for TT...right?

[Teralitha]

Tennex, on 25 March 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

But right now heat isn't an issue on these alpha builds.

Take away double heat sinks and heat will suddenly become an issue.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 25 March 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

there used to be this thing called a Heat Scale, the hotter a mech ran the more bad things happened. First the mech started to run slow, then it would have a hard time aiming. Hotter still the mech moved sluggishly and can't really hit anything. This mythical heat scale punished players over time for running their mechs too hot, thus providing an incentive to keep their mechs cooler...but why do we need silly TT rules here, they're just for TT...right?

this

Teralitha, on 25 March 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Take away double heat sinks and heat will suddenly become an issue.

and the few remaining grognards will rage harder than we've ever seen

[Levi Strauss]

You're like a guy bitching that his car should be able to race because it's stock.

GTFOutta here.

[Davers]

Tennex, on 25 March 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

wait i could have swore the alpha builds were about the AC20 and Gauss builds.

Previously the A1 6SRM kitty.


But right now heat isn't an issue on these alpha builds.

Correct. And streak builds aren't effected by heat much. Neither are LRMs.