40 replies to this topic

[BlackWidow]

Like ECM? Hate it? Or absolutely LOATH it with every fiber or your being?

Put me in category three, please. Until last week that is. Let me asplain.

[for the TL;DR version skip to the end]

I personally love taking a GIANT FIGHTING ROBOT and punching others GFR's in the face. I've been Battletech since Battletech was young. Almost 25 years now. And MWO is just the latest love in a long line of tabletop and computer enjoyment. Until ECM came along.

In TT, ECM factors in some games. You use it, or deal with it. Just modifiers to your dice rolls mostly. But in MWO it changes the games. It was bad enough on maps like Frozen City where everyone just ran up to the ridge and waited for someone to blink. Huge drag. Then ECM came in and turned fun fast violent furballs into something else. Akin to waiting for an email to come in before you could do your job. Or watching grass grow. This is not Mechwarrior.

if PGI directly translated ECM it would have been 'ok' but still annoying. It's different playing a turn based game vs real time where you have to stand around and wait for something to happen. Kinda takes the 'action' out of an action game.

And of course, I can't mention ECM without bringing up the the Raven-3L. This just crystallized the hatred.

Well, something happened. I learned to stop whining and play the stupid game. Turns out that ECM actually has TWO modes! Yes, yes. We all knew that, but knowing and putting into practice are two different things. At least it was for me.

So, I've always had a Commando-2D. Even before ECM was introduced. Fun mech, but not my favorite. But, I got tired of losing constantly to teams with 3 RVN-3Ls or 2 or more ATL-D-DCs. So, I dusted off my the command chair in my ol'Mando and decided until PGI fixed ECM I would just 'ride the cheese'.

Well, even with ECM, the commando's 3 SSRM2's weren't getting the job done. I didnt equip a med Laser as I needed the extra weight for armor. 3L's and 3M's were still cleaning my clock. Until I started using COUNTER mode instead of DISRUPT.

OMG the world had truly opened before my eyes! This weekend my KTD ratio against ECM lights was about 40/3. Of those 40 kills about 10 were against 2 or 3 other ECM's ganging up on me. Of the 3 deaths, only 1 was 1-on-1. The other were against multi-enemies.

Now, of course I can't chalk this all up to skill. I have no-skill streaks in my mech. But, for every tactic there should be a counter. And this is my counter. Against full armor heavies....streaks are back to where they should be. But, against a lightly armored light, wow...they still do the trick.

So, now I am in full ECM heaven. Not hiding from others but in COUNTERING their ECM. It has made all the difference. No only do I usually prevail in ECM light vs ECM light fights, but DDC Atlas as well.

Now, I don't mean I get the kills on them...but let me tell you how much fun it is to sneak up behind a D-DC, turn on COUNTER and wait. Withing seconds he is a burning pile of rubble since my teammates can all see him now.

TL;DR: Almost all of my ECM complaints have been eliminated by using it in COUNTER mode for most of my engagements. Yes, it still needs tweeked. But, I think it could actually be introduced to MORE chassis if people started to COUNTER more.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Yeah I do not ***** about ECM too.Since last hotfix nerfed LRMs to the ground I have no use for them.And ECM do not interfere with lasers or balistics which I use now.
Solution by PGI...well done.

[Roadbeer]

TL:DR
Just wanted to say I really appreciate the topic of your post

[MN03]

YES! We have the solution! Thanks! We all need to play ECM to counter ecm, brilliant.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

See, and you thought when we said LTP we were trolling.

[Orzorn]

I glad you found something that allows you to deal with ECM, but the issue lies in that the answer is to use ECM yourself. Consider that only one variant from ravens, commandos, spiders, cicadas, and atlas mechs can use ECM, now consider that every mech in the game must deal with ECM.

Regardless, I've stopped worrying as much about ECM because missiles have been fixed (and other parts are about to be), and PPCs now have EMP. Still, ECM's relationship with SSRMs is a bad one that should be looked at (Something I hope PGI's ECM fixes, or whatever they're cooking up, does).

Additionally, it just comes down to it that ECM isn't as popular as it once was (probably because Raven's got fixed), so you don't see it nearly as often, or if you do, you can keep it locked down with PPC fire or just kill it (Which is now a possibilities due to those hitbox and state rewind fixes).

Still, ECM has its own problems, as well as BAP. I hope we see some interesting fixes and tweaks (ECM ghost generation would be awesome) to really make information warfare mean something again.

[Ignatz22]

Sirs;

But...but you did it in a COMMANDO....little thing, flitting from frozen waste to fiery desert...a COMMANDO! I love them little things.

Brings a tear t' mah eye, it does....

I just can't talk about it.

-ignatz22
Needs a hankie

[BlackWidow]

MN03, on 01 April 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

YES! We have the solution! Thanks! We all need to play ECM to counter ecm, brilliant.

LOL. Yeah, I understand the irony and it is a bitter pill. But, until they tweak ECM...that pill is required medication to stop foaming at the mouth about it after every match. I'm surprised my account hadn't been locked up to that point.

Mongoose Trueborn, on 01 April 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

See, and you thought when we said LTP we were trolling.

That is because 99/100 L2P is just trolling. Turns out my blinders were on.

[Zerberus]

I used to find ECM OP, and in many ways still do.

But as the saying goes, "If you can`t beat 'em, Join em.".. So I essentially no longer play my more balanced Atlas D and RS, but almost exclusively my DDC, which is now purpose built for getting in close and tearing stuff up, and is harmless at >400m, which is where the other 2s "butter zone".

Ironically, we now find more and more flamethreads and vitrol towards brawlers than we have in the past. Where 2 weeks ago people were bitching about atlas pilots hanging back and not leading teh charge, they now ***** and moan about atlases going 60+ and getting so close to the enemy that they no longer have a clear shot into the circlepit 50% of the time, more often than not because they`re using zoom and thermal (if spectating in PUG is any indication).

Every game that has ever been created has ALWAYS benefitted those that understood and played the game instead of letting the game play them. This is why nobody plays football with 8 on defense and 2 strikers anymore.

It is very much the same with ECM. People experience it, realize it`s advantage, and immediately attempt to attain it, even at the cost of playing a variant or configuration they enjoy more. Simply because nobody likes losing all the time.

We used to put needles in the soles of our shoes when I still played handball. You could swipe past someone`s leg closely and scratch them deeply, taking tehm out for at least a few seconds, but nop foul could be called becasue you obviously missed.

After 2 seasons, others started doing it , too. After the third year, EVERYBODY was doing it.

In the 4th, they started checking people`s shoes before the matches and after breaks, removing the advantage altogether.

The only time the game was regularly balanced was in seasons 3 and after, when EVERYBODY did it without exception or it was banned, negating the advantage completely. ECM in MWO is, IMO, at about a season 2-3 level.... it`s starting to get more balanced, because more and more people are using it.

When somebody that just started on Friday and bought a stalker 4n for his cbills over a 3l ONLY because he had 25 matches of experience on the chassis, even though he has never piloted a light or perused these forums, that says something about ECM to me.... His other choice was a D-DC, but he didn`t want to have to play for another 2 days just to buy his first mech. Had the trial mechs not been set up to still grant chassisXP, I am 100% sure he would be in a 3l now, possibly hating the game for what he would IMO rightly feel was forcing him to buy that specific mech.

But again, since I now also run an ECM mech, I don`t care about ECM being OP anymore, either.

Edited by Zerberus, 01 April 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[BlackWidow]

Ignatz22, on 01 April 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Sirs;

But...but you did it in a COMMANDO....little thing, flitting from frozen waste to fiery desert...a COMMANDO! I love them little things.

Brings a tear t' mah eye, it does....

I just can't talk about it.

-ignatz22
Needs a hankie

Yes. I must admit though, I've never liked the Commando much. Not just in MWO, but since TT 3025. It's just a bit too humanoid for me. I like my mechs too look more like walking tanks (Warhammer, etc) and less like:

Edited by BlackWidow, 01 April 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Vrekgar]

BlackWidow, on 01 April 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Like ECM? Hate it? Or absolutely LOATH it with every fiber or your being?

Put me in category three, please. Until last week that is. Let me asplain.

[for the TL;DR version skip to the end]

I personally love taking a GIANT FIGHTING ROBOT and punching others GFR's in the face. I've been Battletech since Battletech was young. Almost 25 years now. And MWO is just the latest love in a long line of tabletop and computer enjoyment. Until ECM came along.

In TT, ECM factors in some games. You use it, or deal with it. Just modifiers to your dice rolls mostly. But in MWO it changes the games. It was bad enough on maps like Frozen City where everyone just ran up to the ridge and waited for someone to blink. Huge drag. Then ECM came in and turned fun fast violent furballs into something else. Akin to waiting for an email to come in before you could do your job. Or watching grass grow. This is not Mechwarrior.

if PGI directly translated ECM it would have been 'ok' but still annoying. It's different playing a turn based game vs real time where you have to stand around and wait for something to happen. Kinda takes the 'action' out of an action game.

And of course, I can't mention ECM without bringing up the the Raven-3L. This just crystallized the hatred.

Well, something happened. I learned to stop whining and play the stupid game. Turns out that ECM actually has TWO modes! Yes, yes. We all knew that, but knowing and putting into practice are two different things. At least it was for me.

So, I've always had a Commando-2D. Even before ECM was introduced. Fun mech, but not my favorite. But, I got tired of losing constantly to teams with 3 RVN-3Ls or 2 or more ATL-D-DCs. So, I dusted off my the command chair in my ol'Mando and decided until PGI fixed ECM I would just 'ride the cheese'.

Well, even with ECM, the commando's 3 SSRM2's weren't getting the job done. I didnt equip a med Laser as I needed the extra weight for armor. 3L's and 3M's were still cleaning my clock. Until I started using COUNTER mode instead of DISRUPT.

OMG the world had truly opened before my eyes! This weekend my KTD ratio against ECM lights was about 40/3. Of those 40 kills about 10 were against 2 or 3 other ECM's ganging up on me. Of the 3 deaths, only 1 was 1-on-1. The other were against multi-enemies.

Now, of course I can't chalk this all up to skill. I have no-skill streaks in my mech. But, for every tactic there should be a counter. And this is my counter. Against full armor heavies....streaks are back to where they should be. But, against a lightly armored light, wow...they still do the trick.

So, now I am in full ECM heaven. Not hiding from others but in COUNTERING their ECM. It has made all the difference. No only do I usually prevail in ECM light vs ECM light fights, but DDC Atlas as well.

Now, I don't mean I get the kills on them...but let me tell you how much fun it is to sneak up behind a D-DC, turn on COUNTER and wait. Withing seconds he is a burning pile of rubble since my teammates can all see him now.

TL;DR: Almost all of my ECM complaints have been eliminated by using it in COUNTER mode for most of my engagements. Yes, it still needs tweeked. But, I think it could actually be introduced to MORE chassis if people started to COUNTER more.

Would sure be awesome if every mech had the ability to mount the counter system.... oh wait. They Dont.

The Commando you reference was also always handicapped due to splash damage. It was getting hit with the equivalent of 30+ damage from each missile fired against it. The hotfix has helped enormously to even the odds.

The problem still remains. As coded, ECM is doing too many things for what you spend in mounting it. Its only true counter is more ECM and by its very inclusion in its current state it stifles many builds by removing effectiveness from some weapons, thus making other weapons more effective.

The most Damning thing about it is the lack of communications feedback from the devs, even though they stated they would give us more information back in DECEMBER. A month ago they said a post was incoming after recieving all the feedback SINCE the December announcement. We are still waiting. Yet while we wait a single bug crops up in the missile code followed by a huge bug when they drop a patch and they drop a sweeping hotfix that just nerfs every missile.

We know they are capable of quick response action, but for some reason they have remained a stone wall of silence on the issue beyond the platitudes that they are "Gathering Feedback and will release a post 'Soon'".

[BlackWidow]

Zerberus, on 01 April 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

We used to put needles in the soles of our shoes when I still played handball. You could swipe past someone`s leg closely and scratch them deeply, taking tehm out for at least a few seconds, but nop foul could be called becasue you obviously missed.

Remind me to only play computer games against you.

[Revorn]

Nice that OP now likes ECM, but for myself, piloting a LRM Boat and not able to equipp this Magic Pice of Tech, i dont like it as ever.

Edited by Revorn, 01 April 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Vrekgar]

Revorn, on 01 April 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Nice that OP now likes ECM, but for myself, piloting a LRM Boat and not able to equipp this Magic Pice of Tech, i dont like it as ever.

Stick an LRM 20 in a Ravel 3l.... Funniest **** ever as it fires one at a time from a narc tube.

[BlackWidow]

Revorn, on 01 April 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Nice that OP now likes ECM, but for myself, piloting a LRM Boat and not able to equipp this Magic Pice of Tech, i dont like it as ever.

Heh.. Almost. Still don't like it. But LOVE the fact that I have found a personal solution to it.

[Zerberus]

BlackWidow, on 01 April 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Heh.. Almost. Still don't like it. But LOVE the fact that I have found a personal solution to it.

My sentiments exactly.... not the solution I prefer, which would be to have it on a more versatile chassis, but on the flipside a balanced build doesn`t have quite the satisfaction of bulldozing right through the enemy line because all the M/H/A mechs race to follow the only ECM mech in the company and he`s out to pickpocket the enemy drivers.

Side note: That`s probably even the biggest advantage of the DDC and the 360, you`re not running behind hoping to catch up OR out in front praying the others will follow, you`re right in the middle of the pack whith everyone stickking as close to the bubble as they can. And they actually help you fight because they don`t want to lose the ECM cover and be targetable by that lrm boat over on the ridge.

[Writer]

There is no excuse for ECM stacking to cancel out TAG. It's a ******* laser targetting system.

[Team Leader]

Having to take something in order to win? Sounds completely unbalanced to me

[TehSBGX]

So think about it OP you're basically saying "ECM isn't bad when have ECM". Well not every mech can use ECM honestly it does needs some adjustments possibly having different kinds of ECM and increasing it's weight I'm honestly not sure how to adjust it. Basically, you shouldn't have to use ECM to Counter ECM, BAP is meant to be Anti-ECM so the idea should be to balance out ECM and the Equipment meant to counter it.

[stjobe]

Team Leader, on 01 April 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Having to take something in order to win? Sounds completely unbalanced to me

It's the very definition of overpowered.

I'm getting pretty sick of the Cravens myself, ECM is bad enough on its own, as is the Streak (aimbotting built into the game? WTF? Streaks never were guaranteed a hit in BT) but the combination of the two on what is arguable already one of the best light chassis (just talking the 3L here) in the game is maddeningly, stupidly, and horrendously broken.

PGI needs to tone down both ECM and Streaks, they're both too powerful.