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Dr. Mechlove...or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love Ecm


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#21 BigJim

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:14 PM

Now streaks have gone back to normal (well, nearer) I can take a 2A and beat any light in the game, most of the time.
Obviously depending on who gets the drop on who, etc..
This time a fortnight ago, you would be mental to take anything but all-Raven, all the time.
ECM is now way less powerful for want of a better word than it was.

Streaks are still powerful, and still are no-aim, auto-hit etc, but at least now Lasers and other weapons, in the right hands can compete, making ECM a choice, not a necessity.


But the short version is ECM was only (and I hate this term) "OP" because of the weapons systems that it enables or denies - Nothing else.

This is a game all about putting weapons onto a target. It's really simple at heart.

If ECM is making a target harder to see in the first instance, then it's doing it's job as a stealth-nabler.

If it's skewing what weapons are seen as powerful and useless, then it's doing too much.

That balance has come much closer to the ideal with the recent missile changes.

Edited by BigJim, 01 April 2013 - 01:19 PM.


#22 Vrekgar

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:21 PM

View PostZerberus, on 01 April 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

... they don`t want to lose the ECM cover and be targetable by that lrm boat over on the ridge. :)

Sorry. People dont run those much if at all anymore. Your going to be plastered by 50 ERPPC from max range by flying Jump snipers or that 6xppc Stalker. No lock on or cover needed. I always prioritize DDC's because of the information warfare aspect. Plus they are big heavy armored targets that if killed quickly take a large chunk of enemy tonnage off the field.

View PostTeam Leader, on 01 April 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Having to take something in order to win? Sounds completely unbalanced to me

Taking something in order to win? Sound overpowered! Also you wont win just because your team had more ECM. You win because having more ECM gives you an advantage to deny enemy weapons systems and dictate the information battle. ECM confers large advantages, but doesnt AUTOWIN.

#23 BlackWidow

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:50 PM

View PostRhenis, on 01 April 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

There is no excuse for ECM stacking to cancel out TAG. It's a ******* laser targetting system.


Say wut?

#24 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:52 PM

I have no problem with the idea of the team that brings more electronic warfare components having a significant advantage in the fight - that's what should happen. The issue is when there's only one electronic warfare component :)

#25 Mystere

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:56 PM

View PostMN03, on 01 April 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

YES! We have the solution! Thanks! We all need to play ECM to counter ecm, brilliant.


Or a PPC or two ... or six. :)

#26 BlackWidow

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:56 PM

View PostTehSBGX, on 01 April 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

So think about it OP you're basically saying "ECM isn't bad when have ECM". Well not every mech can use ECM honestly it does needs some adjustments possibly having different kinds of ECM and increasing it's weight I'm honestly not sure how to adjust it. Basically, you shouldn't have to use ECM to Counter ECM, BAP is meant to be Anti-ECM so the idea should be to balance out ECM and the Equipment meant to counter it.


Oh, I know. And I'm not here and an "ECM representative" or even that I like it. I state that it's OP, and that I hold it with general disregard as to how it affects MWO gameplay. I was simply showing that as a former ECM HATER! I have overcome a blind spot in my personal experience and actually get a small amout of enjoyment countering Angry Bird 3L's and Cocky D-DCs.

It's kinda analogous to having an obnoxious tail-gater....pulling in behind them...and hitting the high beams.

Hate the game not the player? Naw. I always thought that saying was bull***.

I simply found a way to curb my ECM anger.

.....or did I take the BLUE pill? I forget now.

#27 stjobe

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:03 PM

View PostRoyalewithcheese, on 01 April 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

I have no problem with the idea of the team that brings more electronic warfare components having a significant advantage in the fight - that's what should happen. The issue is when there's only one electronic warfare component :)

Well then, the solution is simple: Break ECM up into several items

It already has the capabilities of Guardian ECM, Angel ECM Suite, and Stealth Armour/Null Signature System, so let's have those four instead.

Also fun to read on that Guardian ECM page is the following game rule: "Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal."

The Angel ECM Suite *will* prevent Streak locks, but then the Streaks can be fired as normal SRMs.

Oh, and of those four, only the Guardian ECM is actually available in 3050.

PGI has taken great liberties with the Guardian ECM, and we're all paying the price.

#28 Vrekgar

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:23 PM

View Poststjobe, on 01 April 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Well then, the solution is simple: Break ECM up into several items

It already has the capabilities of Guardian ECM, Angel ECM Suite, and Stealth Armour/Null Signature System, so let's have those four instead.

Also fun to read on that Guardian ECM page is the following game rule: "Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal."

The Angel ECM Suite *will* prevent Streak locks, but then the Streaks can be fired as normal SRMs.

Oh, and of those four, only the Guardian ECM is actually available in 3050.

PGI has taken great liberties with the Guardian ECM, and we're all paying the price.

Ive been saying this for months now!

The FUNCTIONS it gives are balanced, provided its all given by seperate subsystems, each with their own cost and size.

Hell you can even then distribute some to other mech variants (Probably not the total package) to beef up some less optimal mech designs.

#29 BlackWidow

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:26 PM

View PostVrekgar, on 01 April 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:


Ive been saying this for months now!

The FUNCTIONS it gives are balanced, provided its all given by seperate subsystems, each with their own cost and size.

Hell you can even then distribute some to other mech variants (Probably not the total package) to beef up some less optimal mech designs.


View PostVrekgar, on 01 April 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Ive been saying this for months now!

The FUNCTIONS it gives are balanced, provided its all given by seperate subsystems, each with their own cost and size.

Hell you can even then distribute some to other mech variants (Probably not the total package) to beef up some less optimal mech designs.


Love this idea

#30 Nutlink

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:44 PM

View Poststjobe, on 01 April 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Well then, the solution is simple: Break ECM up into several items

It already has the capabilities of Guardian ECM, Angel ECM Suite, and Stealth Armour/Null Signature System, so let's have those four instead.

Also fun to read on that Guardian ECM page is the following game rule: "Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal."

The Angel ECM Suite *will* prevent Streak locks, but then the Streaks can be fired as normal SRMs.

Oh, and of those four, only the Guardian ECM is actually available in 3050.

PGI has taken great liberties with the Guardian ECM, and we're all paying the price.

Do want. That is all.

#31 WardenWolf

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:56 PM

View PostBlackWidow, on 01 April 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

TL;DR: Almost all of my ECM complaints have been eliminated by using it in COUNTER mode for most of my engagements. Yes, it still needs tweeked. But, I think it could actually be introduced to MORE chassis if people started to COUNTER more.

This is why I usually run an Atlas D-DC these days - if you can't beat 'em (ECM), join 'em!

But really, the fact that we have to go to this length in order to enjoy the game is silly. ECM needs to be balanced, and it needs to get to the point where it can be equipped on any mech. If it is limited enough in effect that all mechs can have it then and only then will I consider it balanced. Heck, even now it would be better to let any mech have it (so that almost everyone would carry it, avoiding teams having none vs teams decked out with it).

#32 Mazzyplz

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 03:11 PM

there's something wrong in the original post;

if anything ecm made matches faster; before then there were people just pinning you down with missiles and you had to facehug a wall the whole match, worse than before last hotfix.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 01 April 2013 - 03:13 PM.


#33 BlackWidow

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 03:19 PM

View PostWardenWolf, on 01 April 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

This is why I usually run an Atlas D-DC these days - if you can't beat 'em (ECM), join 'em!

But really, the fact that we have to go to this length in order to enjoy the game is silly. ECM needs to be balanced, and it needs to get to the point where it can be equipped on any mech. If it is limited enough in effect that all mechs can have it then and only then will I consider it balanced. Heck, even now it would be better to let any mech have it (so that almost everyone would carry it, avoiding teams having none vs teams decked out with it).


And I would agree with this 100% if it wasn't for the fact (personally) that ECM tend to make matches either way out of balance or INCREDIBLY BORING.

I understand ECM is part of any modern mechanical warfare. And I even understand when people rant about how "realistic" certain weapons are in Mechwarrior (compared to current real world implementations). But, Battletech / Mechwarrior has never been about F16's fighting Mig 27's or what have you.

It's World War II P-51's fighting FW-190's in furball dogfights. Except it's Giant Fighting Robots punching each other in the face. Not taking them out with a guided missile at 25 miles.

We want enough tech (with adequate suspension of disbelief) to get a pilotable robot but not so much tech that you can't charge the other one with lasers blazing.

ECM's current implementation is too much of the latter and not enough of the former.

Four weeks more, and hopefully we will see some refinement.

#34 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

wack-a-mole, no missiles except ssrms or srm as a applicable

ECM no longer an issue.

ignore the fact that 8 mans have no radar anymore.

#35 RJGatling

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:14 AM

View Poststjobe, on 01 April 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Well then, the solution is simple: Break ECM up into several items

It already has the capabilities of Guardian ECM, Angel ECM Suite, and Stealth Armour/Null Signature System, so let's have those four instead.

Also fun to read on that Guardian ECM page is the following game rule: "Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal."

The Angel ECM Suite *will* prevent Streak locks, but then the Streaks can be fired as normal SRMs.

Oh, and of those four, only the Guardian ECM is actually available in 3050.

PGI has taken great liberties with the Guardian ECM, and we're all paying the price.


I'm sorry for not adding anything to the constructive side of this conversation other than to say I wholeheartedly agree with this concept. PGI/igp could do little better and far worse to not heed such a suggestion.

#36 BlackWidow

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:27 AM

View PostHammacher Schlemmer, on 02 April 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:


I'm sorry for not adding anything to the constructive side of this conversation other than to say I wholeheartedly agree with this concept. PGI/igp could do little better and far worse to not heed such a suggestion.


Hey, sometimes just showing your support for an existing idea is all that is needed.

I sometime wonder how PGI goes about translating a TT rule into a FPS mechanic. ECM and Streaks in particular. ECM in TT was good. ECM in MWO is very over-reaching. It's one thing to made modifications to my dice rolls, but to actually PREVENT me from being able to fire or even "lock" on the enemy when I CAN SEE IT in my line of sight need to be re-thought. And as far as streaks go....I think there are a couple things to bear in mind. As you know, in TT the only thing streaks do is NOT fire unless you roll a confirmed HIT. This saves ammo. Nothing more. In the game, they seem to be guided missiles. I don't know how else they would do it though. By the time you got your confirmed "hit" and the streaks flew....the enemy really would not be there any more. So, visually it looks like they are guided, but mechanic wise....when you fire....you would have "hit" if the mech stayed put. It doesn't so the streak has to visually follow the mech or all reality breaks down.

#37 BlackWidow

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:03 AM

View PostMazzyplz, on 01 April 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

there's something wrong in the original post;

if anything ecm made matches faster; before then there were people just pinning you down with missiles and you had to facehug a wall the whole match, worse than before last hotfix.


Now that you mention it...sometimes that is the case. If you don't see the enemy on radar you just keep bumbling ahead towards your objective. Then BAM! 6 Atlas D-DC come lumbering around the corner...Your entire team is dead in 30 seconds. So yeah. Faster. But fun? I have more fun playing rock, paper, scissors.

#38 RJGatling

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:50 PM

View PostBlackWidow, on 02 April 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:


Hey, sometimes just showing your support for an existing idea is all that is needed.

I sometime wonder how PGI goes about translating a TT rule into a FPS mechanic. ECM and Streaks in particular. ECM in TT was good. ECM in MWO is very over-reaching. It's one thing to made modifications to my dice rolls, but to actually PREVENT me from being able to fire or even "lock" on the enemy when I CAN SEE IT in my line of sight need to be re-thought. And as far as streaks go....I think there are a couple things to bear in mind. As you know, in TT the only thing streaks do is NOT fire unless you roll a confirmed HIT. This saves ammo. Nothing more. In the game, they seem to be guided missiles. I don't know how else they would do it though. By the time you got your confirmed "hit" and the streaks flew....the enemy really would not be there any more. So, visually it looks like they are guided, but mechanic wise....when you fire....you would have "hit" if the mech stayed put. It doesn't so the streak has to visually follow the mech or all reality breaks down.



A series of ideas for the streak srm that would be vastly closer to its TT purpose in my eyes would be the following:
  • Disable the existing lock on requirement. It is too similar to LRM missiles and not SRMs.
  • Standard reticle remains the appropriate grey/red color until it enters a calculated window for hitting the target, at which point it should turn green or another differentiated color to alert the pilot. If LRMs are used, colors could alternate red/green. Audible or other visual indicators could supplement/replace the color change.
  • Missile would not fire until window of opportunity is properly achieved save for two exceptions.

a) ECM disrupts assisted aiming at which point the reticle turns green/etc. allowing free fire

b) And this is optional - user defeatable assist bound to a key. Can be turned on or off as seen fit by pilot, similar to weapon door toggle.

  • Streak SRM missile velocity should be increased above standard SRM for at least twofold reasons.

a) It prevents supplementing/exploiting the firing of Streak SRMs with standard SRMs.

b) Minimizes deviance from target to maximize opportunities from other weapons as SRMs are the slowest in terms of weapon velocity for unguided munitions.







Overall, this is similar to modern aircraft aiming HUDs, but with a few differences. There would not be a displayed impact line/velocity vector to both clean up clutter and to minimize pilots attempting to calibrate regular srm firing difference based upon the assisted streak srm reticle placement. The computer would also disallow free firing of missiles unless defeated manually.

I think the above changes would help guarantee at least one hit, with more depending on how far you go into the calculated hit window, the precision of the missile cluster, and maybe a little bit of luck for a fun game.

Since this has wandered off topic, let me know if I should make a separate post containing the above info.

Regards,


Hammacher Schlemmer/RJGatling (Depending on game and until I can change names)

PS - Evening here, so I've started drinking. Feel free to point out grammatical/technical errors in this post. I am highly appreciative of this.

Edited by Hammacher Schlemmer, 02 April 2013 - 04:19 PM.


#39 stjobe

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:14 PM

View PostHammacher Schlemmer, on 02 April 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

let me know if I should make a separate post containing the above info.

I think you should. In the Suggestions forum.

#40 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:15 PM

ECM got a buff haha. I feel invisible now on the murkier maps.





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