61 replies to this topic

[Divine Madcat]

I know, one more QQ thread. You may not care, but i would like to say my 2 cents..

As a programmer (Java and C#), i feel like i do understand the challenges a developer faces. No, i don't program games, but the core issues are the same. I understand that bugs happen, and i can respect that. It is a fact of life in programming, and keeps many QA people employed..

That said, what drives me crazy, as a programmer, is seeing the game seemingly degenerate. I expect that new features will have issues, but why do old, previously working bits suddenly stop working?

In the software world, we have something called regression testing - basically, when you add or modify a feature, you go back and make sure that everything working previously continues to do so after your changes. Add a feature, run a regression test; if you have a problem, revert that feature (at least from any production commits), and try to isolate what it is that your change broke. By doing so, you avoid having to try to track down bugs later, in a mountain of changes..

And thus my rant. Things that were once working, are now working worse, or are broken
- The backspace key. Working for months.. now, you can't hold it down. A small issue, but an obvious one.
- Hud Bugs. We went from a pretty much working hud, to one that breaks several times a day. While old bugs were squashed, we got new ones (no map rotation, no IFF, no hud at all).
- Performance issue. One day, people were using a specific nVidia driver just fine, then bam... bugs galore. Mind you, the bug persisted on other drivers, but that makes the point even more.

Now, as much as we like to call this "Beta" (which any non-game software dev will tell you its not. Beta means feature complete...), you are also actively selling a product. Officially "launched" or not, your product needs to be held to a higher standard of quality.

As such, i really feel like PGI needs to step back, and have everyone do a "pencils down", step back, and take a hard look at the bugs (sure, your art and modeler people don't need to stop, obviously). Spend your time wisely, and focus on actually FIXING the game for two weeks. We have decent content at the moment (though, it wouldn't kill ya to make a quick TDM...), and i think everyone would appreciate a bug free experience over one more mech or map...

Hell, take a month if you have to, but please.. fix the bugs! I fire up the game, only to be hit with two crippling HUD bugs in 3 games. I used some MC for the premium time, and really regret wasting the MC now. Certainly, it makes no sense to spend more money, if i can't trust that i will be actually able to play the game i am paying for. I can guarantee, you will keep new players playing far better, if you give them a big free experience..

*Before anyone asks, no, i am not a "defend PGI" founder. I am disgusted at their practices so far, and how much we have slipped since CB, in both promises and quality. Going OB when they did remains one of the worst decisions they have made, and they continue to make even worse ones. I did try to approach this peacefully however, in the hopes that the listen to the community (that they feel does not actually represent the community).

[Tie Ma]

yup.

definately need to prevent piliup of bugs. it only gets harder to track them down as mor changes come


thanks for having high standards. there are very few people like that on the forums. who understand the importance of nuances and attention to detail

as someone in the medical field where a certain level of excellence comes at a minimum, its very hard to watch PGI make this game.

Edited by Tie Ma, 17 April 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Good post.

I do like that Matthew has been making posts regarding the bugs, that helps.

But it does seem like the game has seemingly overtaken the dev's at this point, and they are barely treading water.

[AnnoyingCat]

Everything is fine

[Viper69]

Have you tried a clean install? It seems that is helping a lot of people with their problems. It could be there are bugs they fix on their end because they are clean installing everytime they work on a update, where we are just updating to their final version and this may leave things lurking that should and probably are squashed on a clean version. Now as for the backspace issue, sure its a minor issue and annoying as you say but how are we to know how simple of a fix it is? No offense but with all your programming knowledge you have surely you know you just cant fix one thing, its a cascade effect. I have a feeling something is blocking them from simply fixing it and I have a feeling that is because its a chain of effect that will happen if done wrong.

[Scromboid]

Good insight, and you bring a good point. I don't remember, excepting the hotfix with LRM damage, them ever rolling back a patch at all that introduced bugs.

The fact that folks are getting used to and expecting these sorts of bugs is ridiculous. I cannot say I have ever played a single game where there is someone who hasn't had a HUD bug. I'm actually getting pretty good, myself, at playing without a HUD. Maybe they're testing a new game mode...

The other thing I'd like to see from them is TESTED and VERIFIED drivers for AMD and NVidia posted to their site to let us know which ones to use. That alone may cut out a few issues...

[zhajin]

Viper69, on 17 April 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Have you tried a clean install? It seems that is helping a lot of people with their problems. It could be there are bugs they fix on their end because they are clean installing everytime they work on a update, where we are just updating to their final version and this may leave things lurking that should and probably are squashed on a clean version. Now as for the backspace issue, sure its a minor issue and annoying as you say but how are we to know how simple of a fix it is? No offense but with all your programming knowledge you have surely you know you just cant fix one thing, its a cascade effect. I have a feeling something is blocking them from simply fixing it and I have a feeling that is because its a chain of effect that will happen if done wrong.

I tried a clean installs since i was getting hud bugs every 1 in 10 matches or so, and had not done a clean install since the start of open beta.

Now i get hud bugs every 1 in 3 matches...

[Divine Madcat]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Good post.

I do like that Matthew has been making posts regarding the bugs, that helps.

But it does seem like the game has seemingly overtaken the dev's at this point, and they are barely treading water.

Sadly, i am forced to agree, which is really my whole point. I don't think anyone in the community would be upset if the devs stepped back, and said" Look guys, this month is NOTHING but bug fixes.. no new features or content until we get a hold of the issues.". I know they are trying, but it is getting away from them....

Viper69, on 17 April 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

...Now as for the backspace issue, sure its a minor issue and annoying as you say but how are we to know how simple of a fix it is? No offense but with all your programming knowledge you have surely you know you just cant fix one thing, its a cascade effect. I have a feeling something is blocking them from simply fixing it and I have a feeling that is because its a chain of effect that will happen if done wrong.

But see, that is my point. If you do things right, bugs like that should never get through anyway. Regression testing should be as automated as possible, and run against any changes made.

My whole point was handling a bug as soon as it is made/found, such that there isn't a cascade effect, and the source of the bug can be found quickly. Sure, i acknowledge that not ALL bugs are fixable.. but they should at least communicate this, and a blurb as to why.

As it is, there hadn't been any known engine changes, so a bug like the backsapce key is a rather peculiar one. Given its unique nature, one should be able to track down where it might be getting interfered with, and go from there. But again, i just want them to take the time and work the bugs.. that is all i can ask at this point..

[Viper69]

Divine Madcat, on 17 April 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

But again, i just want them to take the time and work the bugs.. that is all i can ask at this point..

I agree with you. However PGI has two audiences to please here. They have the testers who want to clear out bugs and you got the players who forget its a beta and want new content. the problem is the second audience is larger and is the money generating one.

[zmeul]

Divine Madcat, on 17 April 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

here's how they do it, from a fellow programmer

build A gets green lit
A gets published
build A gets patched to A1... A9
build B is in the oven, but it's an increment on build A, not A9
build B gets green lit
B gets published
build B gets patched to B1 ... B9

there's the issue
I've saw CCP doing this exact same thing with EVE's development


WarGaming goes a different path with WoT's development
unless build A has some critical flaws, like not playable, they give a **** about bugs and they start build B; the bugs reported in build A get to be fixed partilally in B and the rest in build C
the number of hotfixes WG did for WoT I can count on 2 hands, and that's in 2+ years of development

Edited by zmeul, 17 April 2013 - 06:20 AM.

[Scromboid]

Oh, and the re-install worked for me to a degree. It took me from bugging ~70% of the time to ~30% of the time. Over time it worked it's way back up to ~50% of the time, but only time will tell if the bugs find the time to slip back in. If they do, it'll be time to reinstall again, though I don't want to take the time to do it. I hope the devs find the time to iterate the games with their new testing procedures in time for the next patch time.

Time to go. Not sure what I was thinking this time.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

Divine Madcat, on 17 April 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

...
Now, as much as we like to call this "Beta" (which any non-game software dev will tell you its not. Beta means feature complete...)
...

<--- non-game software dev

Beta is beta.

LOL at OP not knowing what "patch" means

Edited by Rizzelbizzeg, 17 April 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Divine Madcat, on 17 April 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

I know, one more QQ thread. You may not care, but i would like to say my 2 cents..

As a programmer (Java and C#), i feel like i do understand the challenges a developer faces. No, i don't program games, but the core issues are the same. I understand that bugs happen, and i can respect that. It is a fact of life in programming, and keeps many QA people employed..

That said, what drives me crazy, as a programmer, is seeing the game seemingly degenerate. I expect that new features will have issues, but why do old, previously working bits suddenly stop working?

In the software world, we have something called regression testing - basically, when you add or modify a feature, you go back and make sure that everything working previously continues to do so after your changes. Add a feature, run a regression test; if you have a problem, revert that feature (at least from any production commits), and try to isolate what it is that your change broke. By doing so, you avoid having to try to track down bugs later, in a mountain of changes..

And thus my rant. Things that were once working, are now working worse, or are broken
- The backspace key. Working for months.. now, you can't hold it down. A small issue, but an obvious one.
- Hud Bugs. We went from a pretty much working hud, to one that breaks several times a day. While old bugs were squashed, we got new ones (no map rotation, no IFF, no hud at all).
- Performance issue. One day, people were using a specific nVidia driver just fine, then bam... bugs galore. Mind you, the bug persisted on other drivers, but that makes the point even more.

Now, as much as we like to call this "Beta" (which any non-game software dev will tell you its not. Beta means feature complete...), you are also actively selling a product. Officially "launched" or not, your product needs to be held to a higher standard of quality.

As such, i really feel like PGI needs to step back, and have everyone do a "pencils down", step back, and take a hard look at the bugs (sure, your art and modeler people don't need to stop, obviously). Spend your time wisely, and focus on actually FIXING the game for two weeks. We have decent content at the moment (though, it wouldn't kill ya to make a quick TDM...), and i think everyone would appreciate a bug free experience over one more mech or map...

Hell, take a month if you have to, but please.. fix the bugs! I fire up the game, only to be hit with two crippling HUD bugs in 3 games. I used some MC for the premium time, and really regret wasting the MC now. Certainly, it makes no sense to spend more money, if i can't trust that i will be actually able to play the game i am paying for. I can guarantee, you will keep new players playing far better, if you give them a big free experience..

*Before anyone asks, no, i am not a "defend PGI" founder. I am disgusted at their practices so far, and how much we have slipped since CB, in both promises and quality. Going OB when they did remains one of the worst decisions they have made, and they continue to make even worse ones. I did try to approach this peacefully however, in the hopes that the listen to the community (that they feel does not actually represent the community).

WE still have bugs in the game that have been around for 9 months... 9 MONTHS!

[Dagada]

Jade Kitsune, on 17 April 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

WE still have bugs in the game that have been around for 9 months... 9 MONTHS!

Pgi hasnt even had testing software or tools for this game until last week. it still amazes me that the game doesnt explode every patch day. still waiting for the patch that actually melts down users gpu's you know thats gotta be just around the corner one of these days.

[MaddMaxx]

Last nights Patch pretty much eliminated all Hud based bugs for myself. The frequency was down to 1-15 matches. Maybe some folks should look at their hardware and check the purchase date...

[BatWing]

I think all lies on how to balance "Fix" and "Make money".

I appreciate the post and i do agree that they should take a breath and provide a PATCH aimed to FIX issues.

On the other end, i have a feeling the guys need to make money. And without the money, there would be no Fix.. a sort of loop.

Then it comes how to balance it. It seems they are giving a balance of 60% features and 40% (or less) fixing for every patch.

S, while collecting money thru the new features, they are also slowly addressing issues. It may work if was not for the fact that as we noticed, they fix one thing and possibly 2 others get broken, playing astressing role on the user experience.

Definetely they had the most brilliant money maker idea when they released the Hero Highlander before the Standard one. I am quite positive they made a BUNCH of money out of that. I am not condamning the idea. It s all good.

Now, STOP for a couple of weeks and just give us a strong Repair Patch. That would be really appreciated.

Just as an example:
I had a very bad Graphic glitch in the last 3 months. Texture corruptions. Especially on any Frozen Map. I had enviroonment flickering textures and I was unable to see Mech Textures.
... How Bad Is That to try to play your Favorite game in that condition?

I have been in touch for 2 months with PGI Tech Support and although very corteous, they did NOT fix the issue, not having a clue to figure out what was it.

JUST RECENTLY, thru a word of mouth, someone told me to disable the TESSELLATION from my AMD catalist center.. and BAM !! probelm fixed, NO MORE GRAPHIC GLITCHES WHATSOEVER!!

Well, really?? Thanks for Nothing to the PGI patching process. What s the sense to have colors, Camos and all the amenities if I cannot even see them ???

I am happy now, but this game needs some reriouos patching....

[Koniving]

Divine Madcat, on 17 April 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Hud bugs: Breaking several times a day.

Just a few things to say.

• Took me 7 hours of play time to encounter even one hud bug this patch.
  
• Holding backspace hasn't worked since chainfire was implemented into the game when I joined closed beta last June. I'm pretty sure it didn't work before either. I always use shift + home and then press backspace once to delete everything typed.
  
• They just implemented a new battlegrid, which was poorly commented out last patch leading to the intense frequency of the new hud bugs. Now on my system I see the bug once in 7 hours of continuous play with a game that's known for memory leaks. That's acceptable to me. Of course, PGI is in the process of hiring new/more scripters and may or may not have the new guy on the job already (who is bound to make mistakes just starting the new job).
  
• Frame rates are tied to the hud bugs. Right shift + F11 if your FPS is too low. For some lower-end processors the FPS can jump up as much as 26 FPS. Mine currently jumps up by 10. Last patch by 19, and by 30 during a hud bug. Redundant scripting issues and various compiling errors are likely the cause.

Now that said, I was very disappointed with the previous patch. Commenting out more than thirty lines of script at the last minute without testing the result is a pretty stupid choice.

This patch I'm happy with, but that's because it works well for me. Obviously lower end computers are suffering. But seriously, if you're running anything less than a GTX 480, you shouldn't be playing at all. Even the GTX 480 may as well predate the playstation 2. When this game first started in closed beta with DX11 installed, my computer could barely run it on high settings, the graphics were that intense. The game's been so dumbed down for lower end computers that it is freaking disgusting. Please start upgrading your stuff to keep up, so that PGI can actually spend more time fixing more pressing bugs rather than trying to make the game compatible with pre-xbox 360 software.

I mean it. You guys have no idea how great this game used to look before fools with laptops popped in, "OMG I'm using a 386 processor, windows 3.1. 8 megabytes of ram and I can't play the game, fix the game it's all your fault PGI! What do you mean do I have directx installed? What's that? Whatever that has nothing to do with it. Fix your game PGI!"

How it used to look before the players with antique computers showed up.







That's how it'll look again soon, so in the meantime if the bugs are that bad for you, take a break from the game and start buying some new graphics cards and better processors. Your grandmothers should be using dual core processors. There's 4 and 8 core processors, and soon to be 12 cores. What are you doing on pre-2004 tech? It's cheaper than your car insurance payment to upgrade. Most of those with frequent bugs are using dinosaurs to play something new-age.

Also if you're experiencing bugs, nothing will be done if you whine about it in the forum. Submit reports to the support@mwomercs.com so that they KNOW what computers are affected and whether or not you're in the stone age.

[Divine Madcat]

Rizzelbizzeg, on 17 April 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

&lt;--- non-game software dev

Beta is beta.

LOL at OP not knowing what &quot;patch&quot; means

Learn to troll better please ...

Dagada, on 17 April 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Pgi hasnt even had testing software or tools for this game until last week. it still amazes me that the game doesnt explode every patch day. still waiting for the patch that actually melts down users gpu's you know thats gotta be just around the corner one of these days.

Agreed it realy is frustrating. The last graphics bug really did feel like it melted my card..

MaddMaxx, on 17 April 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Last nights Patch pretty much eliminated all Hud based bugs for myself. The frequency was down to 1-15 matches. Maybe some folks should look at their hardware and check the purchase date...

Yeah, can we keep the useless comments out? My hardware was built in january... the issue is the game.

[Mercules]

Jade Kitsune, on 17 April 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

WE still have bugs in the game that have been around for 9 months... 9 MONTHS!

My company still has bugs in their code that has been around for 4 years... 4 YEARS!

The issue though is beyond their control in a piece of code that comes from another company to interact with their hardware. We can't alter the code because of contracts so we have built things in around it to lessen the impact of it, but it is still there. PGI is building off a game engine with limitations and probably undocumented issues in that system too. I expect bugs especially with a bi-monthly development run.

[Dnarvel]

Personally, I think half of this blame needs to fall to their pre-release testers. It is obvious they are not testing everything they should be as testers. Maybe they are having too much fun playing with the new content to report the bugs.. or maybe most think that "oh, someone else will report it so I don't have to". They don't realize that if only 1 person reports a bug, the odds of it getting fixed are almost nil.

In short, PGI needs to step up their regression testing and also get someone to control their testers and get them to start reporting every minor glitch they come across.