29 replies to this topic

[Mason Grimm]

Ok, I was having a discussion with some fellow Mechwarriors last night and we were talking about the rampant boating and poptarting and ways to combat it.

Here is what I came up with (and it's cannon too so neener neener neener)

Introduce a new factor to mech operations; Power Requirements.

Yep, you heard me. Power requirements.

Yes, I know we have "cool down" timers but those don't do squat about boating when every weapon is the same and "cools down" at the same time. A 5 ERPPC mech will have it's PPCs all cool down at the same time and then be ready for another super alpha all at the same time. Imagine the sheer energy requirements of that; all the while the mech is still moving, and running it's other systems or jumping or in some cases firing other weapons; assuming they have them.

Now, allow me to explain what I mean about Power Requirements and how this is cannon.

In one of the books from the Blood of Kerensky series Phelan Kell is talking about how Vlad made a mistake the day he didn't kill him or something and the person he was speaking with (either Natasha or Rhynna or some female or other) says to him (again, paraphrasing) "Vlad fired all his weapons at once and his computer had to cycle them one at a time due to the enormous power requirements for that loadout".

Energy weapons and Gauss weapons use energy yes?
Energy weapons and Gauss weapons use capacitors right?

So while you are stomping around and getting in to position all your weapons are charged up and your capacitors are running 100%. You haven't fired a single shot so you have every weapon at your disposal.

BUT

If you are in combat your weapons are going to recharge at different times due to the power requirements having to be cycled by the computer so as not to overtax your reactor.

Basically you would get ONE alpha from your 5 ERPPC Stalker off before each weapon's capacitor need recharging.

This could be in order from top to bottom or you could build it into the game so that the Mechwarrior can specify which weapons receive priority in terms of their power requirements just like you do with weapon groups. Ideally this would be done in the Mechlab so once you set it you are stuck with it till next drop. This would help prevent "on the fly miniboating"'

Example

ERPPC1 Charging > DONE
ERPPC2 Charging > DONE
ERPPC3 Charging > DONE

etc. etc. etc.

This can be tuned in such a way that it wouldn't affect mixed builds as much because things like Ballistics and Missiles etc. don't require huge amounts of power to discharge their payloads; their recharge times would be VERY quick (if not instant) and shouldn't interfere with normal cooldown timers for them so it wouldn't really change the dynamic for mixed weapon builds.

Ideally this would only really affect pop-tart snipers and insta-gib alpha mechs running their chain fire (or group fire) ERPPC + Gauss builds.

No, it won't eliminate them.

It WILL certainly slow down their effectiveness if they are having to wait while all their weapons recharge before they can leap into the sky again and rain down cheese death upon thee! That extra time can allow the enemy to maneuver into position and take them out making them less and less the Flavor of the Month.

I'm sure there are a ton of reasons that this may or may not be a good idea and we could all argue until we are blue in the face BUT this was an idea I had and wanted to put it down for TPTB to take a look at it. If they decide it was awesom then they can pay me a trillion bazillion dollars so I can retire and sit and play MWO all day!

Before you all go off on me (click) HATE SHIELD ACTIVATED!

[Varnas]

Not sure if that would be enough.

But it would be one heck of a nice start.

[Adamski]

Why not just increase the recharge rate / cooldown rate and call that mechanic built in?

I like the overall effect of increasing the cooldown on those weapons however, as it would reduce the damage received by charging mechs, as well as reduce the effectiveness of sniper builds in brawl combat as their weapon DPS would be lowered.

[Bobzilla]

Chainfireing shouldn't be affected. And I wouldn't call 2 weapons of the same boating. I like the idea but you'd have to make it apply after an alpha, and put energy draw reqirements on every weapon. Then we get into energy management, the lowest DPS weapons (energy) getting an overall nerf and nerfing things that are affective but not op like 4 LL's or 9 ML's...

Just increase RoF on boated weapons people have problems with and label it 'energy requirement penalty' or add a min/max range penalty.

[Willie Sauerland]

Mason Grimm, on 17 April 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Before you all go off on me (click) HATE SHIELD ACTIVATED!

I like the idea but think

it should be applied to all systems.

My reasoning is as follows:

Placing this on energy alone gives the hunchie

and other pure energy mechs a true disadvantage.

Also, it would not stop boating other systems.

See the A1 chassis as a prime example.

The Gauss Rifle should require a massive

amount of energy to charge and possibly even fire.

In other words, this should be applied to all weapon systems.

[Nik Reaper]

Willie Sauerland, on 18 April 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

I like the idea but think

it should be applied to all systems.

My reasoning is as follows:

Placing this on energy alone gives the hunchie

and other pure energy mechs a true disadvantage.

Also, it would not stop boating other systems.

See the A1 chassis as a prime example.

The Gauss Rifle should require a massive

amount of energy to charge and possibly even fire.

In other words, this should be applied to all weapon systems.

While all weapons having a limitation is fair, just why does it take a lot of energy to load rockets in to tubes and load shells in to guns?

[Mason Grimm]

Adamski, on 18 April 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

Why not just increase the recharge rate / cooldown rate and call that mechanic built in?

Because all that does is increase the duration until the boat is ready again yet it can still do what it does now and fire all it's boated weapons at you; think stalker ERPPC boat. That changes nothing except slows the boat down by half a second, or a full second etc.

Bobzilla, on 18 April 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Chainfireing shouldn't be affected. And I wouldn't call 2 weapons of the same boating. I like the idea but you'd have to make it apply after an alpha, and put energy draw reqirements on every weapon. Then we get into energy management, the lowest DPS weapons (energy) getting an overall nerf and nerfing things that are affective but not op like 4 LL's or 9 ML's...

Just increase RoF on boated weapons people have problems with and label it 'energy requirement penalty' or add a min/max range penalty.

This doesn't distinguish between chain fire and alpha striking as it doesn't matter. Every weapon, whether chain fired or alpha striked, has a recharge time. If you only have 2 Large Lasers and you fire them both off in group it wouldn't matter. The only thing that matters is where you put them in terms of priority for your reactor to recharge.

Example:

ER PPC
ER PPC
Large Laser
Large Laser
AC/2
LRM15

This isn't exactly a BOAT build right? You've got a mix of different ranges, damages and heat scales to work with here.

Now, in the mechlab you would do this.

ER PPC (Priority 1)
ER PPC (Priority 2)
Large Laser (Priority 4)
Large Laser (Priority 6)
AC/2 (Priority 3)
LRM15 (Priority 5)

The Priority number is the number in which the reactor feeds power back to these weapons systems to recharge them. Being that the ERPPC are your favorite weapons you have put them on priority 1 and 2 so they recharge first (one after the other). Say it takes 2 seconds for each ERPPC to recharge that is 4 seconds total.

Now, your AC/2 is your third favorite weapon and since ballistics don't require much, if any, power it's like .25 of a second and its ready to rock.

Your Large Laser doesn't require as much power to recharge the cap as the ERPPPC does, say 1.5-1.75 seconds, so that is 3 seconds for both of them to recharge.

I'm using arbitrary numbers here, of course, just to demonstrate what I mean.

Willie Sauerland, on 18 April 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

I like the idea but think

it should be applied to all systems.

My reasoning is as follows:

Placing this on energy alone gives the hunchie

and other pure energy mechs a true disadvantage.

Also, it would not stop boating other systems.

See the A1 chassis as a prime example.

The Gauss Rifle should require a massive

amount of energy to charge and possibly even fire.

In other words, this should be applied to all weapon systems.

I'm pretty sure my OP said "all weapons" but just in case let me elaborate "This system applies to every weapon in the game. Gauss and Energy weapons have the most power requirements so would take the longest to recharge; ballistics and missiles require almost no power to reload so would require almost no recharge/reload time other than their existing cooldowns".

Nik Reaper, on 18 April 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

While all weapons having a limitation is fair, just why does it take a lot of energy to load rockets in to tubes and load shells in to guns?

It doesn't. I don't think he understood the OP as clearly as some of the other responders here.

[Fooooo]

I like the idea as I posted something similar somewhere else.

Basically it was to give each weapon a power rating and each engine a power draw rating.

A std300 would be able to fire 3-4 PPCS in an alpha, but then would have to wait for there to be enough charge in the engines capacitors to fire all of them again.

IE They could alpha, then fire them 1 by 1 when they recycle as long as there is enough juice charged at the time etc.

However they could not alpha, then alpha again right as the PPCS etc recycle as there would not be enough power to fire them all at the same time again....at least by the time the PPCs recycle that is. If they did, it could either shut them down or just not fire the weapons it cant get power for.


So yea, I like the idea as its very similar, so it gets my vote.

[DeadlyNerd]

A mod that doesn't follow the posting guidelines for suggestions.

I support the suggestion though, power has to come from somewhere, charging 6 PPCs at the same time should slow the mech down to a halt, if not completely disable all movement.

Btw what you need is this:



Good old asbestos, for your fight against everyday flamer kids.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 18 April 2013 - 07:00 AM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Mason Grimm, on 18 April 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure my OP said "all weapons" but just in case let me elaborate "This system applies to every weapon in the game. Gauss and Energy weapons have the most power requirements so would take the longest to recharge; ballistics and missiles require almost no power to reload so would require almost no recharge/reload time other than their existing cooldowns".

Ah, my apologies.

+1 to the idea then.

Although, would the rate of recharge

be dependent on engine rating?

Understand, I'm not talking STD vs XL

but say 300 vs 110 (for example)...

[The Strange]

There is an easier way, that also solves other issues besides just this one. http://mwomercs.com/...t-an-annoyance/

[Syllogy]

Before I can sign off on this, I must see any Alpha Insta-gib build that can 1-shot-kill a Hunchback without relying on a Headshot, Backshot, Ammo Explosion, or XL destruction.

Edited by Syllogy, 18 April 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Mason Grimm, on 18 April 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

Because all that does is increase the duration until the boat is ready again yet it can still do what it does now and fire all it's boated weapons at you; think stalker ERPPC boat. That changes nothing except slows the boat down by half a second, or a full second etc.

So if not to just slow down its alpha, your saying after the first alpha you can never alpha agian for the rest of the match?
Cause what you said was they would just take longer than their rof to recharge, and one after the other, you are still just waiting til your next alpha is ready but its slower. Doesn't matter how you cut the mustard there. What i'm saying is you can get that same effect by increasing certain rof's of weapons when used together that are causing problems boating, and not mess with every weapon and the entire game play by adding an energy management aspect.

[Bobzilla]

Syllogy, on 18 April 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Before I can sign off on this, I must see any Alpha Insta-gib build that can 1-shot-kill a Hunchback without relying on a Headshot, Backshot, Ammo Explosion, or XL destruction.

Thats a weird set of conditions, why not just say if it destroys a hunches ct in one shot? Which doesn't really matter cause all those other things will have the same result. Technically you could build a ppc/srm stalker that could alpha for 96, hunch can take 80 something i think. Thats close.

[Mason Grimm]

DeadlyNerd, on 18 April 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

A mod that doesn't follow the posting guidelines for suggestions.

I support the suggestion though, power has to come from somewhere, charging 6 PPCs at the same time should slow the mech down to a halt, if not completely disable all movement.

I'm not asking whether users agree or disagree with my suggestion and therefor decided not to make a poll. If you note the way it was worded "We ask that all users......"

It isn't an order, simply a request. I didn't feel a need to make a poll and so didn't

It's all about that grey area!!!

Bobzilla, on 18 April 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

So if not to just slow down its alpha, your saying after the first alpha you can never alpha agian for the rest of the match?

(facepalm) no, that is not what I am saying at all.

Bobzilla, on 18 April 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Cause what you said was they would just take longer than their rof to recharge, and one after the other, you are still just waiting til your next alpha is ready but its slower. Doesn't matter how you cut the mustard there. What i'm saying is you can get that same effect by increasing certain rof's of weapons when used together that are causing problems boating, and not mess with every weapon and the entire game play by adding an energy management aspect.

Your method is a nerf to specific weapons that someone deems "causing problems boating" where as my method is a system that encompasses everything in a single system that is fair to everyone.

So what? With your system you change the RoF on a PPC to from 3 to 30. It doesn't matter.... Every single PPC still comes online after 30 seconds right? That means after 30 seconds they can still jump snipe / PPC boat / whatever. In that 30 seconds anything can happen. I get what you are saying I just disagree with it.

Let me see if I can explain it to you another way

CURRENT COOLDOWN/RECHARGE/RECYCLE/WHATEVER
PPC1 = 3 second recharge
PPC2 = 3 second recharge
PPC3 = 3 second recharge
------------------------------------
All of the above PPCs recharge all at the same time over the course of three seconds right?

So it doesn't matter if you change that # from 3 to 30, they will all still recharge at 30 seconds.

BUT if recharging works based upon priority then it goes

PPC1 > 3 second recharge > PPC2 > 3 second recharge > PPC3 > 3 second recharge

Weapons are recharged, based upon your priority rating, consecutively and not concurrently.

This means that after 3 seconds PPC #1 is recharged and ready to fire, after 6 seconds PPC #2 is ready to fire etc. During that time (unless he is really dug in and hiding) the pilot may want to use PPC #1 and PPC #2 to suppress an enemy. The point is he is now forced to make a decision "Do I wait 9 seconds for all my PPCs to recharge so I can jump snipe again or do I use the weapons that have recharged and slug it out with the enemy". During that period of 9 seconds maybe the enemy gets into a flank position and forces an encounter, maybe the pilot decides "ok forget the alpha strike game, I need to stick and move" or maybe something else happens. It allows options rather than an easy to use "click mouse once, win engagement".

There is no miraculous solution that removes boating from the game. It simply won't happen unless you nerf specific chassis but then people will scream bloody murder because its their favorite chassis etc. etc. etc.

The suggestion I put forth allows for a means to reduce high alpha boating by making a system that is fair across the board for every weapon system, whether used individually or in as part of an alpha group (or any variation thereof). It provides options and strategy for the boating pilots to work with.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 18 April 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Bobzilla]

See thats my point how many seconds would it take to fire 9 MLs?

[Mason Grimm]

Bobzilla, on 18 April 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

See thats my point how many seconds would it take to fire 9 MLs?

Depends on what rating the MLas is set at...

If PPCs are set at 3 seconds each then it would require 15 seconds to recharge 5 of them for an alpha
If MLas were set at .5 seconds each then it would take 4.5 seconds to recharge 9 of them for an alpha

You could chain fire your MLas one at a time and by the time you were firing your 9th Medium Laser your first couple have already been recharged and are able to fire again...

BUT

If you alpha strike with all 9 of your medium lasers, and you want to fire another alpha of them, then you have to wait 4.5 seconds for them all to recharge and be ready for another alpha strike.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 18 April 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Seems simpler to just say, if you put 4 or more of PPC's or 2 or more gauss on one mech its going to suffer, as appose to applying it to every weapon but adjusting their numbers so it affects ppc's and gauss more with a made up excuse that they consume more power. Why change everything under a guise of fairness due to some make belive thing when they could just put penalties for certain weapons being boated that are causing the problem in the first place? Those who boat won't be happy either way, but your way is just too much a complication.

It would be better than not doing anything about it, and maybe if all the numbers were worked out i'd be able to invision it better and would view it differently.

[MasterErrant]

I like this idea. (the cannon reference is moot as there are many things in the book that arent in the game. and this game is cannon only in name)

a simple alternative would be to add a percentage to each successsive weapons recycle time. PPC1 3sec
PPC2 3.75 sec
PPC3 4,5 sec
ETC
if you fired 6 ebnergy weapons the total recycle time would be increased by 2,25 but each weapon would ecome available as it recovered.

I do not agree about gauss they don't draw anywhere near as much ower as PPC or lasers. which shoot energy

[Mason Grimm]

MasterErrant, on 18 April 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I do not agree about gauss they don't draw anywhere near as much power as PPC or lasers. which shoot energy

You would be surprised at the energy required to propel a dense ferromagnetic object, perhaps having the mass of a smart car, the distances that an MWO Gauss Rifle reaches with a velocity greater than 1500m/s.



Now scale this up by several hundred (maybe even thousand) times, fit it on a mech with reloading capabilities.