43 replies to this topic

[p4g3m4s7r]

So, small gripe. Ever notice how, when you're in a light mech, when you're moving forward at a high rate of speed and you fire jumpjets your speed doesn't increase (or even decreases) and you travel upward at a substantially slower rate than if you weren't moving at all?

This, physically, MAKES NO SENSE!

I know that this is a game with big stompy robots inspired by '80s anime/manga and that things don't have to make perfect sense or be explained scientifically, but this is just... bad. I mean, this is a blatant violation of something as simple as F = Ma for no purpose and to the detriment of gameplay!

So, my suggestions:

- Make jumpjets always impart forward momentum, that way they can produce a slight speed boost to light mechs at the cost of maneuverability.

- Make it so that there is absolutely no difference in the height you jump when moving forward or otherwise.

[MrVop]

This is MWO... where the community thinks that JJ's are for sniping only and not actually intended to improve movement abuility.

[Zyllos]

MrVop, on 28 April 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

This is MWO... where the community thinks that JJ's are for sniping only and not actually intended to improve movement abuility.

Ya, that is the problem.

How do you balance forward momentum with the need to actually clear objects or reach high places? The current community held thought is to implement screen shake during jump jetting. I foresee players finding ways to stop the shake before firing while still being in air.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Zyllos, on 28 April 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

How do you balance forward momentum with the need to actually clear objects or reach high places?

I addressed that. Jumpjets should always impart there full forward and upward momentum (they don't thrust vector in this game, so they can't do anything else anyway). Per my suggestion, jump jets would always push you as high as they do now when you're standing still, but you'd also be gaining forward momentum that you'd have to counter or that would increase your forward velocity if you were already moving forward.

[Tennex]

thers no movement physics in game.

i suspect right now jump jets are a simple upward/downard modifier with changes to mech engine speed.



but no actual phsycis effecting it.

maye when they add terrain/height/water physics they can add this in.

Edited by Tennex, 28 April 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[pencilboom]

MrVop, on 28 April 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

This is MWO... where the community thinks that JJ's are for sniping only and not actually intended to improve movement abuility.

you nailed it good..

[Tennex]

also Jump jets don't have a forward vector. just a vertical one

despite how the visuals look

Edited by Tennex, 28 April 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Appogee]

p4g3m4s7r, on 28 April 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

...robots inspired by '80s anime/manga ...

Wait. There was ZERO anime/manga inspiration for BattleTech/MechWarrior.

Carry on...

[p4g3m4s7r]

Tennex, on 28 April 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

thers no movement physics in game.

i suspect right now jump jets are a simple upward/downard modifier with changes to mech engine speed.

but no actual phsycis effecting it.

maye when they add terrain/height/water physics they can add this in.

You're either incorrectly trying to disambiguate physics modelling and the physics approximations that go into games or you're just trying to say that no real physics modelling is in the game yet (which I highly doubt given the ragdoll behavior).

Either way, that's not my point. I don't care if this game has an actual physics "model" or not. Frankly, a real one beyond what's naturally present in the Cry Engine would just be a waste of time unless PGI actually hires someone who specializes in that work.

My point is that there should be some sort of sensible Jump Jet behavior in game. I honestly don't think a highly realistic physics model should be implemented for Jump Jets if they add forward thrust because then 8JJ spiders could conceivably rocket forwards at 200+ kph out of almost nowhere. However, I do think JJ need to add forward momentum to help reduce the amount of pop-tarting that occurs and also to make it so that JJ actually help light mechs get out of sticky situations and become more difficult to shoot again.

Tennex, on 28 April 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

also Jump jets don't have a forward vector. just a vertical one

despite how the visuals look

If JJ don't have a forward vector then why do they have a weaker vertical vector when moving? The thrust is either going into maintaining forward motion (which it basically isn't since you slow down when using JJ) or it's literally just disappearing due to bad math or a poor understanding of physics or because magic.

[Tennex]

p4g3m4s7r, on 28 April 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

If JJ don't have a forward vector then why do they have a weaker vertical vector when moving? The thrust is either going into maintaining forward motion (which it basically isn't since you slow down when using JJ) or it's literally just disappearing due to bad math or a poor understanding of physics or because magic.

The forward vector you see when people jump jet is carried over by the forward momentum from when the mech was moving on the ground.

if jump jets had a forward vector poptarts wouldn't jump straight up and down. they would go up and forward when the JJ is used.

so it makes sense that the only thing the thrust maintains is upward movement..

p4g3m4s7r, on 28 April 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

or it's literally just disappearing due to bad math or a poor understanding of physics or because magic.

TIL drag is magic and or poor math. maybe you think gravity is magic and or poor math too since it makes upward motion disappear

Edited by Tennex, 28 April 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[StandingInFire]

They do, just you loose the momentum fairly rapidly because you legs are no longer accelerating you and drag that a giant (mostly non-aerodynamic) mech would experience slow you down.

[Helsbane]

To those that believe cockpit shake during jumpjet activation will cull jump snipers from the game, it's just wishful thinking. All you would nee to do is apex your jump, let off the jets for a second and fire, boost again to cushion the landing. Simple, and keeps you from having a rumbly view while jump sniping.

[StandingInFire]

Also cause I am bored here is some physics:

using skier for the drag coefficient for jenner going 130kph though air, lets assume a jenners front face is 10x20m
Fd = 1/2 p v^2 Cd A
= ½ 1.2 kg/m^3 (36 m/s)^2 1.05 (10mx20m)
= 163 296 N

That gives us a deceleration rate of:
F = ma
a = F/m
= 163 296 /35000
= 4.7 m/s^2

Now to get the time to stop or distance is a bit more painfull, but let’s assume an average deceleration rate of 3 m/s^2.
0 = 36 – 3*Time
Time = 36/3 = 12 seconds to reach full stop.
Or
Dist = 36/2 *12 = 216m

Edited by StandingInFire, 28 April 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[sC4r]

Appogee, on 28 April 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Wait. There was ZERO anime/manga inspiration for BattleTech/MechWarrior.

Carry on...

i believe there was... otherwise there wouldnt be so many problems with unseen mechs

[Tennex]

Appogee, on 28 April 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Wait. There was ZERO anime/manga inspiration for BattleTech/MechWarrior.

Carry on...

look up robotech

[Accursed Richards]

Appogee, on 28 April 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Wait. There was ZERO anime/manga inspiration for BattleTech/MechWarrior.

Carry on...

Quick, somebody tell that to Harmony Gold, then we can have the Marauder and Battlemaster back!

[p4g3m4s7r]

StandingInFire, on 28 April 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Also cause I am bored here is some physics:

using skier for the drag coefficient for jenner going 130kph though air, lets assume a jenners front face is 10x20m
Fd = 1/2 p v^2 Cd A
= ½ 1.2 kg/m^3 (36 m/s)^2 1.05 (10mx20m)
= 163 296 N

That gives us a deceleration rate of:
F = ma
a = F/m
= 163 296 /35000
= 4.7 m/s^2

Now to get the time to stop or distance is a bit more painfull, but let’s assume an average deceleration rate of 3 m/s^2.
0 = 36 – 3*Time
Time = 36/3 = 12 seconds to reach full stop.
Or
Dist = 36/2 *12 = 216m

Your numbers seem representative of actual normal behavior while deploying jump-jets when moving forward, which would imply that there is absolutely no forward thrust from jump jets. If that were the case, then the mech should have the same amount of upward thrust and achieve the same jump height when deploying the jump-jets while moving forward as they would when not moving at all. Thus there is still missing momentum.

Helsbane, on 28 April 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

To those that believe cockpit shake during jumpjet activation will cull jump snipers from the game, it's just wishful thinking. All you would nee to do is apex your jump, let off the jets for a second and fire, boost again to cushion the landing. Simple, and keeps you from having a rumbly view while jump sniping.

I don't think that would be the end all and be all solution, but I also don't think that jump sniper are a huge "NERF NAO!!" kind of problem. I think it would probably be better if there was some sort of extra challenge like cockpit shake and jump jets always boosting you forwards.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Tennex, on 28 April 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

The forward vector you see when people jump jet is carried over by the forward momentum from when the mech was moving on the ground.

Except that you slow down very slowly when using jumpjets while moving. Also, you would use an extremely small portion of the thrust to maintain that movement because you aren't fighting gravity.

Tennex, on 28 April 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

if jump jets had a forward vector poptarts wouldn't jump straight up and down. they would go up and forward when the JJ is used.

so it makes sense that the only thing the thrust maintains is upward movement..

Your point is? My point was that a forward vector would make pop-tarts have to reset their jump every time they did a jump shoot, thus adding in an extra obstacle to them jump-shooting and possibly be a solution to people complaining about pop-tarts.

Tennex, on 28 April 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

TIL drag is magic and or poor math. maybe you think gravity is magic and or poor math too since it makes upward motion disappear

See the post above. StandingFire's math and reasoning are sound and he basically shows that the normal mech behavior indicates that no forward thrust is currently present (though he would argue otherwise, I think). Also, the amount of thrust to lift a 35 ton mech straight up (assuming it applies enough force to counter gravity + 50% which seems about right if not conservative) is about 467 kN so even if they did make it so that jump jets maintained forward velocity you'd still only see a substantial decrease in rate of climb as opposed to almost no rate of climb whatsoever.

I'm going to play around with my Jenner and try to get some numbers in the training ground, but there is missing momentum.

[Jungle Rhino]

There is nothing wrong with poptarts. It is when there are 4-5, or 6 poptarts that it becomes a problem. Yes, just like everything else in this game 'boating' poptarts is OP

[Nihtgenga]

As long as JJ help in turning, they do NOT only have up thrust; otherwise an airborne mech would never turn - but last time I tried with a 'bucket 7M, it did. Currently, the JJ are relatively close to BT Universe description, they only lack full-free-vectoring, they're limited to up+turning, which seems a bit odd to me (why should they be limited?). Full vectoring on the other hand would allow to use the JJ at ground level to accelerate or break, but then it would e.g. possible to do JJ-strafing, speed-turning, etc. too - which would have other consequences to consider.

Helsbane, on 28 April 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

To those that believe cockpit shake during jumpjet activation will cull jump snipers from the game, it's just wishful thinking. All you would nee to do is apex your jump, let off the jets for a second and fire, boost again to cushion the landing. Simple, and keeps you from having a rumbly view while jump sniping.

Why SHOULD it completely cull JJ-snipers from the game? It should only require more skill to hit (now JJ-sniping is the much better form of longrange fire support compared to LRMs)