17 replies to this topic

[The Last Blade]

I am making this argument since we will soon have 12v12 and more ammo will be needed throughout the fight or everyone will be forced to use lasers/PPC's more, plus for some reason no one has brought this up yet.

Mechs in MWO have 50% increased health in internals per max point of armor per section. To somewhat mitigate this, I believe ammo has been increased slightly. In the case of AC/20's, ammo from table top, 5 per ton, has been increased to 7 per ton in MWO. Gauss is from 8 to 10. Ultra/5 from 20 to 25. Wouldn't it make more sense to have Gauss go from 8 to 12 and ultras 20 to 30? is it really necessary to skimp there? currently we have to sacrifice way more tonnage and crit slots for our ballistics and risk explosion just to get through a match, in comparison to lasers. I don't remember having to carry so much ammo to get through a match in Table top vs MWO. Things just died faster at the "normal" TT rate.

Damage in MWO is done a bit differently, as all weapons do not do 1:1 damage, like missiles. Ballistics however do, and so to even this out they gave us more ammo per ton... but not nearly what it should be. It seems that we are being shortchanged a few shots per ton, which is multiplied since you always seem to need at least 2-4 tons of ammo, PER Ballistic, just to get through an 8v8 match. This problem will be compounded when 12v12 comes out in the near future.

I say we all get our Pitchforks, and head on down to the Piranha Lair, cause the way I see it, you owe me about 3000 c-bills per ton of ammo you've shortchanged me, so now you owe me a small fortune. /Sarcasm shots fired

Math was never my strong suite, but I have always felt that I was having to put a ton or two more than I should have needed to this whole time. For instance, dual Ultra AC/5's, I need at least 6 tons to get through a match of 8v8, but I feel like 4 or 5 should have been more about the right amount. I've felt the same with LRM's, gauss, and ac's. Am I doing this right math people? are my facts right? make a comment if you think something is incorrect, but try to have at least a small reason or proof .


TL;DR

More Mech Hit Points in MWO = More ammo per ton than they have given us, especially considering 12v12 is coming up.

[El Bandito]

But 12 v 12 means more of your friends are shooting at your enemies and more chance for you to die to concentrated fire (cause more guys aiming for a single target)--before you finish your ammo.

Ammo count should stay as is, IMO. Aside from A1, all other mechs can have back up laser weapon.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 May 2013 - 11:19 PM.

[TexAce]

i will be pleased if the TTK slows down a bit and the games get more durable so no.

Edited by TexAss, 03 May 2013 - 05:51 AM.

[Drenzul]

I agree, the amount of ammo per weapon is already too high, its going to get worse but I also agree about the TTK been too low from the amount of alpha mechs about.

I'm hoping they will be increasing the amount of armour of mechs from 2x TT values to 3x, I'm hoping at the same time they will pretty much double the amount of ammo for ballistics, and maybe increase it for missiles slightly.

[Cyke]

El Bandito beat me to it.. 12 vs 12 also means that there will be more 'Mechs shooting their weapons at the enemy team.

Still, you have a point.. I'm curious about the reasoning behind durability being increased 2x* but ammo per ton only being increased 1.5x.
I'm sure there's an explanation, and it might have been announced before.. does anyone know?


* - Durability is doubled. You can say that MWO armor is 2x of TT armor value, and MWO structure is increased by an additional half point for each additional MWO armor point, which is technically true, but that's an overly complicated of saying the same thing this way: Both MWO armor and structure are 2x of TT values.

[Cyke]

Drenzul, on 03 May 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

I agree, the amount of ammo per weapon is already too high, its going to get worse but I also agree about the TTK been too low from the amount of alpha mechs about.

I'm hoping they will be increasing the amount of armour of mechs from 2x TT values to 3x, I'm hoping at the same time they will pretty much double the amount of ammo for ballistics, and maybe increase it for missiles slightly.

Further increasing the armor is not going to solve the issue in a meaningful way that improves gameplay.

There's folks who already say this everywhere, but it doesn't mean they aren't right:
The 'Mechs have their armor distribution over their body parts based on the TT game, that made it hard to concentrate damage on a single location. In MWO, it's trivial to do so.
The only way to solve it would be to somehow make it require more time, skill, or effort to get all a 'Mechs weapons to hit the enemy's CT.

[jeffsw6]

I need to carry enough ammunition to solo all 12 opponents because my PUG will be full of noobs! FFS how do they think I am going to play if my AS7-D-DC only has 21 rounds AC/20 and 200 SRMs?! I will have to kill those last 9 guys with nothing but lasers! I sure hope the enemies are all low on ammo, too, after expending some to kill my 11 clueless pop-tart teammates.

Really, it shouldn't be that different. I mean, if you are really going to rambo the whole enemy team then it's probably because all the opponents are beat-up already and lasers will do the job. I've never done over 1300 damage in a match but I've sure had some where I am the last mech on my team, and get 5 or 6 kills and win the match, because the last 3 enemies are all jacked up and run to defend their base 1-by-1 instead of arriving as a team; and I do not think those were really my best dmg matches. It would be a shame if that never happens anymore, but I think I can give that up if the teams become large enough that someone can actually defend a base and you can have capture parties that are big enough to win a real fight.

[Sephlock]

Of course, more ammo per ton = more damage from ammo detonations = the need for more internal structure points to compensate = the need for more ammo per ton =... MY GOD, WHAT HAVE WE DONE?!

[jeffsw6]

Also ammo already limits mechs in a useful way right now.

You can make a 4 x Ultra AC/5 mech with a JM6 but you can't get more than 2 or MAYBE 3 kills in one because it can't carry enough ammunition. Try it out if you want, JM6-DD 352/422 standard armor, Endo, XL200, 10 DHS, 4 UAC5, 5 tons ammo. You will wreck the first 1 or 2 enemies you find because it is twice as much DPS as two AC/20s (with a $70 macro-mouse) and it has a far larger effective range.

The 4xUAC5 Jagermech literally can core the back of an Atlas in seconds, unlike the 6 MG Spider. I'm not making it up, I just went to the Testing Grounds, found an AS7-D, and destroyed it in 4 seconds by shooting it in the back. An Awesome took 5 or 6 seconds by shooting him in the front of its torso. It's ridiculous.

If ammo were raised 50% this would suddenly be the new JM6 cheesebuild.

[Egoist]

I used to run dual uac5's with 6 tons as well but since i have been 4 manning i've been more selective eith my shots and have reduced it down to 4 tons. I've only run out in one game out of about a hundred so far but it does lead me to believe that focus fire and component targetting reduces the amount of spraying that i was doing.

I have also noticed an increase kills and a decrease in my damage dealt as well, i used to post 800+ games regularly but i find my average has dropped to around 400 now. I even had a 5 kill game with only 200 damage dealt as we were coring our targets so quickly i barely used half my lower ammo count.

[Fire and Salt]

I use 9 tons of LRM ammo in my LRM 55 highlander, and 9 tons of AC2 ammo in my jager.


The stock jager has.... 3 tons of ammo? 2?


I think it it good that they increaded all from the TT, since there is more armor, but i think it still needs to be increased a little more. Im not saying that a stock mech should have enough ammo to score 800 damage (i make sure i have enough for 800 damage while missing 1/3 of my shots if i am ammo dependant)

No, i dont think stock mechs should have this much ammo, and i KNOW that i add lots of ammo to my mechs with the expectation that i might kick some @#$ but 9 tons for a 65 ton mechs is crazy! I would be quite happy saying "yea, this things full of ammo cuz on gonna stomp all day... 7 tons of it, aww yea"

Even so with 9 tons... but i fear that i will need 10-11 tons when 12v12 comes around.

As a general rule, I carry atleast 2 tons ammo for each LRM5, if i want to rely on it.

--------


Now, lets say 8 tons is enough for my jager (it usually is, i average using about 6-7 tons if i do good) but i dont want to run out (hey, i dropped my medium lasers to add ammo, and im a waking bomb because of it... i shoudnt run out)

If we have 12v12, that isnt going to make me all of the sudden require 12 tons... but battles will surely be a little longer.... and since i plan on surviving the whole time, i will need more ammo... maybe 10 tons instead of 8.


So my suggestion is that PGI increase ammo by 10-20% when they transition to12v12 - so that i dont have to have atleast 2LL or 2PPC on every mech incase i am the last one alive.

Edited by Fire and Salt, 03 May 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[The Last Blade]

You will see once 12v12 comes, you will run out of ammo far too quickly, and lasers will be the weapon you have to equip if you hope to last the entire fight. Ammo limits you right now at the moment, but it will be much worse when there is many more opponents. Ammo was never limit us this much, and it will become obvious when more mechs will be on the battlefield. I'm not saying give us a huge amount more per ton, but we're gonna need at least some to make ballistics and missiles even worth bringing to the battlefield. I'm guessing they know this already, but they don't care/understand it's very likely going to be a problem when 12v12 is implemented.

[jeffsw6]

Fire and Salt, on 03 May 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

I use 9 tons of LRM ammo in my LRM 55 highlander

Just because you waste ammo like a fool doesn't mean everyone needs to. I only carry 7 tons of LRM ammo on my LRM70 Stalker. If I use it all up, it's because I wasted too much, or I am going to end the match with 700 - 1000 damage and multiple kills, and half the opponents that my teammates killed was probably stripped of armor from my LRMs.

Seriously, 9 tons of LRM ammo is 1620 missiles. I understand suppressing fire and that may be what you are using a lot of the ammo for, but you can do that with an LRM5 or LRM10 and it will actually be more effective than by firing a bigger launcher (or an alpha) because it will keep the enemy off-balance -- not knowing if "incoming missiles" means he is about to get hit by 5 or 55 missiles.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Yes armor was doubled while ammo was only slightly increase, but for the same reason, pinpoint accuracy. If you can place most of your shots on target to the same location, you will need far less ammo than in the TT where you couldn't control where those shots were going. An Atlas that fires 5 times in TT against another Atlas with its AC20 may score hits to 5 seperate locations (and just used up a ton of ammo), but in MWO unless your a lousy shot those 5 rounds can be all CT. Also, for those very skilled shots out there that do place all the rounds expended on target, do you want to increase how long they can do so against your team? For the hell of it to experience a 'cheese' build I made my DD into an AC40 Jager, and it takes up a large amount of tonnage to have a good supply of ammo. Do you really want to give AC20's and gauss rifles more shots for free?

[HybridTheory]

The Last Blade, on 02 May 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

I am making this argument since we will soon have 12v12 and more ammo will be needed throughout the fight or everyone will be forced to use lasers/PPC's more, plus for some reason no one has brought this up yet.

Mechs in MWO have 50% increased health in internals per max point of armor per section. To somewhat mitigate this, I believe ammo has been increased slightly. In the case of AC/20's, ammo from table top, 5 per ton, has been increased to 7 per ton in MWO. Gauss is from 8 to 10. Ultra/5 from 20 to 25. Wouldn't it make more sense to have Gauss go from 8 to 12 and ultras 20 to 30? is it really necessary to skimp there? currently we have to sacrifice way more tonnage and crit slots for our ballistics and risk explosion just to get through a match, in comparison to lasers. I don't remember having to carry so much ammo to get through a match in Table top vs MWO. Things just died faster at the "normal" TT rate.

Damage in MWO is done a bit differently, as all weapons do not do 1:1 damage, like missiles. Ballistics however do, and so to even this out they gave us more ammo per ton... but not nearly what it should be. It seems that we are being shortchanged a few shots per ton, which is multiplied since you always seem to need at least 2-4 tons of ammo, PER Ballistic, just to get through an 8v8 match. This problem will be compounded when 12v12 comes out in the near future.

I say we all get our Pitchforks, and head on down to the Piranha Lair, cause the way I see it, you owe me about 3000 c-bills per ton of ammo you've shortchanged me, so now you owe me a small fortune. /Sarcasm shots fired

Math was never my strong suite, but I have always felt that I was having to put a ton or two more than I should have needed to this whole time. For instance, dual Ultra AC/5's, I need at least 6 tons to get through a match of 8v8, but I feel like 4 or 5 should have been more about the right amount. I've felt the same with LRM's, gauss, and ac's. Am I doing this right math people? are my facts right? make a comment if you think something is incorrect, but try to have at least a small reason or proof .


TL;DR

More Mech Hit Points in MWO = More ammo per ton than they have given us, especially considering 12v12 is coming up.

More HP? Why? You can't take a hit? Give me a break. Adding MORE hit points at this point is totally ludacris. You say an AC/20 Jager is cheese? What about the splat cat? Gauss cat? ECM? If you don't like how the ammo works in this game... maybe aim a bit better. If you add HP to the situation all you end up with is AC40 Jagers that could TAKE more damage.... given the state of the game right now the best way to "win" is to pop tart, Guass it up, or AC40 Jager. Until they address the issue of multiple weapons firing pinpoint in a group, or, firing perfectly while jumping, adding more hit points won't do what is required to balance the game out in the long run.

Edited by HybridTheory, 08 May 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[Khazrak]

The AC20 ammo seems to be about right (maby 8 instead of 7, maby), but as you go down to sizes there should be more per tonne. The ac2 for example has the same dmg per tonne of ammo but you have to track your target the whole time exposing your CT vs a quick shot with an ac20 then torso twist to cover your CT. Far more wasted shots with the smaller ACs and more vulnerability.

[Sephlock]

HybridTheory, on 08 May 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

an AC/20 Jager is cheese?

No

Quote

What about the splat cat?

No

Quote

Gauss cat?

No

Quote

ECM?

Yes.



One of those things completely invalidates 3 out of 4 of the different classes* of 1 of the 3 weapon types.

*Narc, LRM, SSRM, SRM

[The Last Blade]

I feel anyone who doesn't want an ammo buff in this thread, is a poptarting PPCer! OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH