24 replies to this topic

[NotEnoughDakkaDakka]

Just some quick calculations as to the differences between clan OmniMechs and Inner Sphere Battlemechs.

For an example; Jenner JR7-F versus an Adder Prime.

The Adder Prime runs 97.2 KPH, with 11 Double Heatsinks and two Clan ERPPCs and a Flamer. While it is intimidating at first, consider the following;

-OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components: its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech. (From the Wiki itself.)

-The flamer on the Adder Prime is completely fixed to the 'Mech. This leaves 2.0 structure tonnes) plus the 8.5 tons from the XL210 engine, plus the 0.5 tons from the Flamer, and the 6 tons of FF armor (for reference, that's about 215 points of armor in MWO.) plus 3 additional heat sinks, which leaves 15 tons of pod space.

The total stats come out to roughly 22% cooling efficiency, 97.2 KPH, 215 armor, 30.40 firepower and a significant range advantage over other light 'Mechs of its size.

Now, the Jenner JR7-F that I run normally has the following;

6 MLas, 45% cooling efficiency (note that this is a bit more than DOUBLE that of the Adder Prime), 15 DHS, XL280 for a speed of 129.6 KPH, two Jumpjets and 224 armor.

Just as a quick comparison, the Jenner has the following advantages over the Adder;

-Jumpjetting
-Far cooler to run
-Far faster
-Slightly more armor, has a lesser psychological impact on the enemies


The Adder has, to be honest, only one advantage, and that is pinpoint damage. Other than that, it has far worse cooling, is a slow Light 'Mech (read; slow = dead), has less armor, and doesn't have jumpjets.

---

Extrapolate towards other OmniMechs (Nova Prime vs Hunchback 4P, Atlas vs Daishi, etc.), and you'll find that the Clan 'Mechs are actually slower, less heat efficient and have slightly worse armor in exchange for firepower.

Throw in the Star vs Lance typical combat, and the Clans are completely outmatched. If you want to point anything out to my liquor-addled brain right now, feel free to do so.

:sleepy:

[Roadkill]

NotEnoughDakkaDakka, on 11 May 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

-OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components: its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech. (From the Wiki itself.)

Inner Sphere 'Mechs are not modular at all. The negative that you've just applied to the non-modular parts of a Clan Mech apply to the entire Inner Sphere Mech. So pretty much, your argument is invalid.

[Lootee]

This thread accidentally all the.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Roadkill, on 11 May 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Inner Sphere 'Mechs are not modular at all. The negative that you've just applied to the non-modular parts of a Clan Mech apply to the entire Inner Sphere Mech. So pretty much, your argument is invalid.

Since we don't have any hard data about how the Clans or their omnimechs will be implemented at this point, all we do have is rampant speculation. One of the most popular theories is that an omnimech will have no hardpoint restrictions for its payload (meaning players will be able to fill their pod space in any way they like without restriction aside from available tonnage and critical space), and to balance that freedom and flexibility will have locked-down minimum armor levels, engine rating, armor and structure type, fixed weapon and electronic warfare equipment when appropriate, and so on.

What this would do is make omnimechs a tradeoff. Instead of being the unlimited-customization monsters that the hard point system was originally designed to prevent, they'd be far less customizable in many respects but far more customizable in payload.

Assuming that this system, or one like it, will prove to be an accurate prediction, then much of the technological advantage that the clans possess would be mitigated by the overall greater flexibility of inner sphere designs. Of course, nothing is stopping a clan player from spending pod space to upgrade the weight of armor, to add more heat sinks, or otherwise to do whatever they want, but they can never touch the engine rating, the structure or armor type, or the fixed systems (like the Puma's flamer), and they can never go below the minimum armor and heat sink requirements of the stripped omnimech chassis.

Plus a Clan erPPC is half again the damage of an IS erPPC, and other similar efficiencies will be in play with regard to tech. The Puma in the OP's example has a 30-point accurate alpha potential (that's 3 IS PPCs worth of damage, and likely enough to breach a Jenner's CT armor in one shot) out to an absurd range, while his Jenner can match the raw damage output but has to be far closer and generally won't be able to guarantee that all the damage will land on the same point.

[Vassago Rain]

Uhm.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jenner_IIC

Clans are far superior to IS.

[Tennex]

IS mech's engines are not supposed to be modable either. or anything really

Edited by Tennex, 11 May 2013 - 09:13 PM.

[Tennex]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 11 May 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

Since we don't have any hard data about how the Clans or their omnimechs will be implemented at this point, all we do have is rampant speculation. One of the most popular theories is that an omnimech will have no hardpoint restrictions for its payload (meaning players will be able to fill their pod space in any way they like without restriction aside from available tonnage and critical space), and to balance that freedom and flexibility will have locked-down minimum armor levels, engine rating, armor and structure type, fixed weapon and electronic warfare equipment when appropriate, and so on.

they can't do that because t would break the way this game is balanced.

only with the hardpoint system they are able to buff the small laser's (and other small weapon's) DPS to a multiple. which in turn buffs smaller mechs but no big mechs. since larger mechs will still want more bang for the buck since they only have a few hardpoints.


but if you let people use without hardpoint restrictions. you will have heavier mechs boating 20 small lasers, something insane like that. and do much greater damage than they could with say 3 or 4 large lasers.

Edited by Tennex, 11 May 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[Roadkill]

Clan Mechs are not balanced by design. Any attempt to balance them on a Mech-for-Mech basis destroys the whole point of the Clans. If PGI even intends to let us play Clan Mechs - and personally I think it would be a bad idea - then by far the simplest way to balance them is to make them count double in the matchmaker. 6 Clan Mechs vs 12 IS Mechs. Within the constraints we have, that's the only reasonable solution that's easy to implement.

[ShadowbaneX]

This topic is so wrong it has to be a troll job.

If, somehow, it's not, I'll just put it this way, if the IS mechs are any indication not only will clan mechs be able to swap engines and components like endo-steel around as easily as we do, with their OmniMech design they should be able to as easily change their weapon hard points around as well...and have better equipment as they do it.

No, the only way Clans are going to be balances is if they only fight other Clans or if it's 4 Lances vs 2 Stars, ie 16 vs. 10

Edited by ShadowbaneX, 11 May 2013 - 09:45 PM.

[Tennex]

i think it would be nice if the clan mechs had only a set location of pods to switch between. for example the vulture has missile rax on its R/L torso. but can switch those pods out for ballistics side torsos which has its own distinct model. etc. However, the rest of its components hardpoints (arms/CT) cannot be switched.

or maybe PGI will simply implement omni hardpoints. limited to a few locations on the mech.


i like the pod idea better though.


also. if they make clan mechs all omni. how will they sell clan hero mechs with distinct hardpoints?

Edited by Tennex, 11 May 2013 - 09:57 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Tennex, on 11 May 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

IS mech's engines are not supposed to be modable either. or anything really

You can mod any battlemech in any way, as long as you have the time, the money, and the spare parts for it, and the mech has enough tonnage and space.

This is very different to omnis, that you effortlessly swap weapon pods off. Grandma Smith's atlas might be really ****, but after she gets her right side shot out, she's gonna wait a couple weeks for the techs to swap the ruined gauss rifle for three spare AC2s.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Tennex, on 11 May 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

also. if they make clan mechs all omni. how will they sell clan hero mechs with distinct hardpoints?

If they did something like the system in my previous post, they could sell ones with different stock kit (bigger/smaller engine, ff or es instead of standard or the other way around, etc.), plus there's paint patterns and cbill boosts associate with Hero mechs.

[Coralld]

Battle mechs are in fact modifiable in swaping out weapons and engine like we see in the mech lab but they required to be taken to a shop to do it. The only thing battle mechs couldn't do with out completely taking the mech apart is the weapon hard points, if that hard point was meant for an energy weapon then only a energy weapon could be placed there. To replace that energy hard point to say a ballistic would require that section of the battle mech to be completely dismantled. Omni mechs advantage was that their weapons could be modified on the fly with out being taken to a shop. As long as you had a crane, mobile gantry or scaffold, and a wrench, you could replace the mechs weapon right then and there with out taking them off the battle field. The drawbacks of Omni mechs is that if you wanted to change up their engine and heat sinks then you would need to take them to a shop and completely dismantle the mech.

Edited by Coralld, 13 May 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[Zolaz]

Well, they should reinstate R&R to make it cost prohibitive to run Clan mechs. Also, I am good with making Clan mechs count as double tonnage for matchmaking.

[Capt Sternn]

Right now IS mechs are more or less Omni mechs, easily swaping out weapon loadouts. I think the Clans will have hardpoints, just universal ones. And yes the only way to have Clan mechs portrayed correctly in the game and maintain any balance will be to not allow clan and IS mechs on the same team and always have the fight 1 Clan Star (5 mechs) vs. 2 IS lances (8 mechs), 10 vs 16 for larger battles.

[General Taskeen]

Capt Sternn, on 12 May 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

1 Clan Star (5 mechs) vs. 2 IS lances (8 mechs), 10 vs 16 for larger battles.

Yeah, no. Not happening, an uneven match, is still an uneven match. Unless those 10 player's are super pro.

Edited by General Taskeen, 12 May 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Unfortunately, the OP post is based on stock mechs, not how the players will trick them out.

Clan and IS mechs will be able to equip the same amount of armor per weight scale. Clan advantage will be some savings in weight if got Ferro and/or Endo since Clans will need only 7 crits per instead of IS 14 crits.

Take lights
Armor - maxed out-same
Engines - Durability Clan can live with a side torso gone but same weight savings for both and 2 crit slots are freed up. With additional weight savings clan mechs can be much faster than same IS mech.
Heat Sinks - Clan 2 slots to IS 3 slots so will likely be able to fit in more HS, weight allowing.

Weapons - Considering how IS lasers work, clan lasers will likely have less beam time.
Energy - no IS weapons so normal Large/med/small lasers will not fit.
CERMLasers - Same range on IS LL, 1 dmg less than LL and 2 heat less than LL.
Pulse Lasers (shudders) Longer range than IS non-pulse lasers.

Simply skipping the extreme long range advantages, clan mechs will be able to equip more DHS (crit space, for every 2 IS DHS one will fit 3 Clan DHS). Clan mechs will be able to "brawl" at longer ranges.

With the current heat scale in place, even in brawling range Clan mechs will, in general, top IS mechs simply from a spreadsheet look. The differences will lie in the recycle times, heat and if the heat scale is tweaked or redone to reduce repeated alpha strikes.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 12 May 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Tarl Cabot, on 12 May 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Unfortunately, the OP post is based on stock mechs, not how the players will trick them out.

Clan and IS mechs will be able to equip the same amount of armor per weight scale. Clan advantage will be some savings in weight if got Ferro and/or Endo since Clans will need only 7 crits per instead of IS 14 crits.

Take lights
Armor - maxed out-same
Engines - Durability Clan can live with a side torso gone but same weight savings for both and 2 crit slots are freed up. With additional weight savings clan mechs can be much faster than same IS mech.
Heat Sinks - Clan 2 slots to IS 3 slots so will likely be able to fit in more HS, weight allowing.

Weapons - Considering how IS lasers work, clan lasers will likely have less beam time.
Energy - no IS weapons so normal Large/med/small lasers will not fit.
CERMLasers - Same range on IS LL, 1 dmg less than LL and 2 heat less than LL.
Pulse Lasers (shudders) Longer range than IS non-pulse lasers.

Simply skipping the extreme long range advantages, clan mechs will be able to equip more DHS (crit space, for every 2 IS DHS one will fit 3 Clan DHS). Clan mechs will be able to "brawl" at longer ranges.

With the current heat scale in place, even in brawling range Clan mechs will, in general, top IS mechs simply from a spreadsheet look. The differences will lie in the recycle times, heat and if the heat scale is tweaked or redone to reduce repeated alpha strikes.

You can't mod omni-mech armor values, or engines, or structure, or any of the hardwired components. For instance, the puma has a flamer you can't take off.

I'm not gonna go into detail, but if they do things properly, and clan mechs take up more slots on your team, they won't be that much of a balance nightmare. If they don't, well.

[Strum Wealh]

Roadkill, on 11 May 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Inner Sphere 'Mechs are not modular at all. The negative that you've just applied to the non-modular parts of a Clan Mech apply to the entire Inner Sphere Mech. So pretty much, your argument is invalid.

Actually, standard (that is, non-OmniTech) BattleMechs are rather more modifiable than their OmniTech cousins, assuming one has access to:

• sufficient money
  
• sufficient time
  
• the correct class of refit kit
  
• a sufficiently-advanced facility

With specific regard to the aforementioned refit kits (described on pages 188-189 of Strategic Operations):

• Class A: field refit kit ("can be attempted with little or no access to support facilities") allowing for replacement of a single already-present weapon with one of the same type (energy/ballistic/missile) and similar or lesser size (criticals)
  
• Class B: field refit kit ("can be attempted with little or no access to support facilities") allowing for replacement of a single already-present weapon with one of a different type (energy → ballistic or missile, ballistic → missile or energy, missile → energy or ballistic) and similar or lesser size (criticals)
  
• Class C: maintenance refit kit ("requires access to the equipment and resources found in the appropriate type of transport cubicle") allowing for change of armor type and distribution, replacement of a single already-present weapon with one of a different type (energy → ballistic or missile, ballistic → missile or energy, missile → energy or ballistic) regardless of size, movement of a component to another location (e.g. RT → LT, or vice versa), addition or removal of ammunition bins, or addition or removal of a heat sink (but not a change of heat sink type)
  
• Class D: maintenance refit kit ("requires access to the equipment and resources found in the appropriate type of transport cubicle") allowing for the addition of a new (not already-present) weapon or piece of equipment, a change of heat sink type, or a change of engine rating (but not engine type)
  
• Class E: factory-level refit kit ("requires a production facility capable of producing the unit in question") allowing for the installation of CASE or a change of myomer type
  
• Class F: factory-level refit kit ("requires a production facility capable of producing the unit in question") allowing for a change in internal structure, engine, gyro, and cockpit types

By contrast, the limitations imposed on OmniMechs as the price for the flexibility of their weapon/equipment loads are described in more detail on pages 47-57 of TechManual.
The short version is that (canonically):

• An OmniMech's internal structure type (standard, endo-steel, etc) and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's engine type (standard, XL, etc), rating (250, 300, etc), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's armor type (standard, FF, etc), amount (total tonnage/number of armor points), distribution (how much armor is where), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• The locations and types for the cockpit and gyro may not be changed.
  
• The presence and location(s) of MASC and TSM cannot be changed; neither may be added to an OmniMech that wasn't originally built with it, and neither can be moved into a set of criticals other than what they originally occupied (for example, it may not be moved from the Left-Torso to the Right-Torso).
  
• The type of heat sinks (standard, DHS, etc) that are equipped on an OmniMech cannot be changed.
  
• Weapons and other pieces of equipment, additional Heat Sinks, Jump Jets, and other items may have been built-into the OmniMech as hard-wired "fixed items". Examples of such fixed components include the Flamer on the Puma (mounted in the Center-Torso), the Medium Lasers on the Avatar (mounted in the Center-Torso), and five of the Jump Jets on the Thor (one mounted in the Center-Torso, the other four filling the legs). Such "fixed items" may not be either moved to another location on the OmniMech nor completely removed from said OmniMech.

Under such a system, for example, a Mad Cat would never be able to carry an Engine other than a 375 XL (even if the tonnage and/or criticals are made available, or if one wanted to downgrade the Engine rating to free up tonnage), nor would it ever be able to carry less armor in favor of more weapons, nor could it install MASC or TSM (even if the necessary tonnage and/or criticals could be made available), nor would it ever have the space in its side-torsos to mount LB 20-X ACs or Ultra AC/20s there (as the Engine, ES, and FF together consume a total of five (5) of the twelve (12) criticals, leaving only seven (7) criticals available in each side-torso; the Clan LB 20-X requires nine (9) criticals while the Clan Ultra AC/20 requires eight (8) criticals), nor could it ever carry fewer than 15 DHS (though, it can mount more as OmniTech pods) or ever change from DHS to SHS, nor could it ever mount any equipment in the legs (as they are filled with ES criticals).

The above restrictions are a large part of what keeps each OmniMech unique in spite of their flexible weapon/equipment loads.
They're part of what keeps, for example, a Night Gyr and a Mad Cat unique from each other; otherwise, both of them are "merely" 75-ton gunbags with different skins.

The advantage of OmniMechs, gained for sacrificing the ability to modify the base 'Mech, is that they wouldn't/shouldn't have hardpoint limitations on their remaining weapon/equipment loadouts; whatever space and tonnage isn't already used for the base 'Mech's components would/should be essentially as many "Omni hardpoints" as there are open criticals, and the ability to change what is in those open criticals without penalty or cost.

While MWO doesn't follow the refit kit rules to the letter, the core idea is present in the implementation of the MWO hardpoint system.
It would be interesting and novel to see the Clans' OmniMechs (and later, IS OmniMechs) balanced against the IS BattleMechs (and Clan-built non-Omni/"second line" 'Mechs, should they make an appearance) through a combination of implementing the canonical OmniMech restrictions and making the tech bases exclusive of one another (at least, at first... and even later, maintaining tech exclusivity for core components like engines, structure, armor, and heat sinks).

Thoughts?

[Pater Mors]

Just give me my Mad Cat and leave the customization how it is. I don't care if Clan Mech's aren't powerful compare to IS Mechs. I don't care if they are exactly the same customization-wise as IS Mech's. I don't really see any possible ways to balance Clan power Vs Inner Sphere in this game and keep anyone except for the hardcore BattleTech fans happy. CW will end up with everyone playing Clans and almost no one playing IS if the Mech designs follow proper BattleTech lore.

It would be nice to have a true to life real time BattleTech game but it's just simply not going to happen with MWO. If you introduce Clans as being more powerful and then let players play them, you might as well just take the Inner Sphere out of the game now.

The only people who will actually enjoy that are the long time BattleTech fans who are keen for RP and unfortunately, there's not enough of them available to justify catering solely to their needs. A new player who hasn't been introduced to BattleTech will not understand the dynamic and will quickly get sick of getting their butt handed to them by the clans. It's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is.