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Information Warfare Overhaul & Its Side Effects


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Poll: Information Warfare Overhaul & Its Side Effects (13 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you think of this suggestion?

  1. Yes, this is a good system (9 votes [40.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.91%

  2. I partially agree but it could use some tuning (explain) (4 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  3. No, this is a terrible idea and you should feel bad for posting it (2 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  4. Abstain/Dont care (1 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  5. Whatever my thoughts are, PGI will never do this and you just wasted an hour of your day that you will never get back again - chump. (6 votes [27.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.27%

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#1 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:11 AM

OK - this is going to be a long read but the more I think about the Info warfare and entire way sensors are handled in this game I keep thinking it needs a base level overhaul. However, I also understand that PGI cannot change a huge amount of hard coded stuff so i am trying to keep it within realms of possibility using tools I think they might already have.

If you want the too long didn't read version - you wont get it. Do not bother commenting as its too fiddly to explain in a sentence. Lets get started.

Terminology:

Firstly lets quickly recap the terminology as this can get confusing and I might refer to something differently to others so lets get on the same page.
  • Sensors: I count all functions of a mech to target others and friendlies as sensors. It could be radar, it could be electromagnetic, or any other fluff. The mech gets a bunch of data form its various sensors and consolidates it into your screen as targets.
  • Vision Modes: Like we have now, they are things to aid your eyesight not your sensors.
  • Modules: Things like seismic modules are additions to your sensors, and zoom is an addition to your vision modes.
  • Electronics: I count this as BAP/ECM/TAG/NARC - its not really true that NARC is electronics it is a weapons system but its only purpose is to add to the information warfare aspect so i will just label them all as electronics for the moment, but will usually refer to them individually.

Base Level Sensors:

At the fundamental core of the game are mechs that carry nothing else but their base sensor loadout. These need to be viable and complex enough to add a level of tactics to a game without any other toys. This is the core of all targeting and info warfare that is manipulated via modules and electronics afterwards - or circumvented by vision modes.
Firstly we have the base sensor modes
  • Active Sensors: This means you can see, but people can see you. Functions similar to what we have now with some adjustments (se below)
  • Passive Sensors: You have extremely limited sensor range, and enemies have much reduced effectiveness on you. However you are at more of a loss when an enemy is active so it is to be used situationally. You also share NO data with your friendlies so you are dark to your allies, and you cannot see them. You cannot use LRMs or SSRMs in passive.
  • Changing sensors: It should take a full second or more to change between sensor modes to stop people flicking back and forth like tards.
How they interact with mechs
  • Detection Range: All mechs have a detection range as of the current game (800m?) This is to remain the same adjusted by electronics/modules. Passive sensor reduces YOUR sensor range to 180m (or maybe nothing at all!). Passive sensors reduces your detection range to others to 500m - so passive radar is not stealth mode, you still need lots of situational awareness. Again electronics/modules can change that range.
  • Detection time: All mech will have two levels of detection time. The first is to simply have them appear on our screens as targets with a letter assigned as we have now. The second is to show the mechs loadout and damage display - as we also have now.
  • Detection time manipulators: This is where we diverge. Detection time should be based on the size of your mech and other factors such as heat and electronics/modules. An assault would take perhaps half a second from showing up in your vision if in detection range, heavies take 1 second to show up on your screen, mediums 1.5 seconds, and lights 2 seconds. (numbers are just placeholders). The loadout and damage screens would take the same amount of time to fill in as now adjusted for modules etc). If you are running at high heat your detection time is reduces as you show up like a beacon. Reticle targeting will also speed up detection time. So if you spot a light visually and keep your reticle on the mech you will get a detection lock on of a greatly reduced time (halved, instant, to be tested) This allows people with good vision to lock up sneaky ones.

What this all means.

Light mechs can dash from cover to cover with active radar on and spot people with thier reticles. This will allow them to flank more easily without needing ECM, but they can still be spotted, locked and shot at if they leave cover too long. Assaults would be detectable very easily though so they will need to be careful.

So active radar scouting and flanking etc are all viable without giving away your position too quickly.

Using passive radar though, you can still be stealthy - but you have hardly any to no information on your HUD. You rely on situational awareness and eyeballs to keep yourself alive and effective. You can use passive to sneak into range, to cross open ground, to flank before putting radar on and so forth. However you are vulnerable when passive as it is a limited amount of stealth and you can still be detective, shot, or locked on with such things as TAG and NARC etc.

This base level of change would dynamically shift the battlefield but allow a greater level of tactical depth if you know you are not always an LoS beacon as soon as you leave cover. However the stealth can be mitigated with targeting, range, speed and additions such as electronics.

Higher Level IW

So now the base sensor game is in and you have a good, fun, tactical experience without any additions. Now we can add in modules, electronics, and vision modes.

Vision modes are easy. They function with active and passive radar and help your eyeballs just as they do now. Very useful for those running passive and for those running active.

Modules so far seem to be things that manipulate the current values. Higher detection time, range, or non LoS detection such as 360 and seismic. With more complexity in the sensor system even more modules can be made, or existing ones changes to suit. Using modules you can turn yourself into a much greater stealth machine, or a much greater spotting machine. Or a mix of both if you have the slots.

Electronics: This is where it gets more interesting. Lets look at the bugbear first - ECM.

ECM is support to counter other electronics such as TAG, NARC & BAP. It can still do this. Any advantage BAP gives is nullified to the ECM carrier and those in its bubble. Tag works the same as now, and NARC needs a total overhaul but should be negated only when in the bubble, but if still not destroyed when you leave the bubble becomes active again.

ECM would then adjust the sensor game somewhat. ECM would increase detection time by a large margin, reduce detection range partially(not too much), and would also completely hide the damage and loadout screen. This would make it much harder to get a lock for LRMs as long as the users are not standing in the open and using cover to break locks.

If you go passive in an ECM field though, you get all the advantages of passive plus a reduction in detection range to about 400m or so perhaps.

So ECM and passive will allow a greater level of stealth but you need to be very careful and situationally aware as a tight group to gain this or you might just be ambushed yourself.

BAP: Bap should give a much greater level of detection time, detection range, and lock on for missiles. Unless in an ECM field. It should be the premier tool for detection and should give a LARGE boost not a small boost. Also increases detection vs passive targets to maybe 650m or something.

Artemis: much the same as now, unless targeting people in ECM as usual.

TAG: Same as it is now, can target Passive mechs as well.

NARC: Would light up a mech on sensors no matter what mode they are in unless in ECM. Would stay on target until it takes x damage to the location it is on (x being a much higher number than now) This one is up for debate though it needs to be useful but with passive mechs around maybe it becomes more useful anyway.

What This Means:

ECM is still powerful but it does not completely destroy LRMs who have options to target but will need to be closer, but not completely ineffective unless in brawling range. ECM is not needed for stealth anymore because you can go passive to achieve stealth to a degree, and ECM and passive allow a little more stealth as well. ECM becomes a counter for electronics mostly including sensors but not to an extreme amount. It is a useful tool and one you would nearly always take but does not hard counter some weapons.

BAP becomes more useful because there is a lot more going on in sensor warfare that it can affect. tricky lights will be able to duck from cover to cover without being LRMed and BAP and direct targeting can help to nullify that but they can still be stealthy but BAP will help pierce their passive radar as well.

All other electronics are viable and even more useful now the flat binary sensor system is replaced with something more complex where more tools are needed. Modules can then increase your effectiveness where you want to be effective on the info warfare front.

Stealth is now a feature of all mechs - but it comes with a heavy downside. Not being able to see or share info with your allies is a massive downside for instance. It allows ECM to not be the centrepoint of all IW and is instead one piece of the whole.

Examples:

OK, how might this play out on the battlefield? Let look at a few examples.

Light flanker: Going passive and wide of the enemy means you probably will not be spotted. You can then go active to assess your situation and feed back info to your team. You will not be locked up at range very easily but you might run headlong into another flanker or be spotted visually and you might not know. risk vs reward but you might sneak into a cap or behind the enemy too.

Light scout/forward observer: Hiding in woods so you are visually hard to see on passive allows you to see and report targets via chat. Or if you have ECM you can be active. You can also take a quick peek in a light mech while active and not show up like a beacon on the enemies screens unless you stay too long.

Mediums: Mediums get a similar advantage to lights. Using passive can help you position better and even when active you can dash from cover to cover and peek more than a heavy or assault possibly could.

Assaults can a lot of benefit when tying to be stealthy but they are still hard to hide visually and sensor wise. Going passive to cross open ground, then back active when in position.

LRM boats are viable but can be baffled by the use of cover, sensor modes, and clever piloting. However LRMs should be punishing to those who do not do this! Those caught in the open can go passive though to avoid further volleys until they are closer - or retreat. So LRMs can force people to turn of thier sensors, a neat side effect that can cause chaos in the enemy team.

Direct fire mechs may rely totally on passive though, and use their vision only, but it would be interesting to see just how much effectiveness is lost without damage readouts and instant notification of enemies in your LoS.

---

I may have missed a bunch of stuff - but i feel this would allow a greater use of tactics and info warfare without being overly complicated (it sounds complicated but in practice it will become second nature)

Your thoughts?

Edited by Asmudius Heng, 15 May 2013 - 06:10 AM.


#2 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:23 AM

You basically need multiple choice for the poll, because everyone will have to click the last option, but want still to signify some level of support or hate. :(

A part I don't agree with is that I don't think LRMs should be extremely powerful if you don't use sensor and stuff smart, and very weak if use them well.

It's a matter of degrees, but I want less extremes, not more.

One thing I would change no matter what - force homing weapon users to re-lock a target after they fired their missiles. After they are fired away, the missile should be fire & forget (which makes some things easier), but will also force them to accept targeting delay penalties (which makes some things harder).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 15 May 2013 - 05:38 AM.


#3 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:37 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 15 May 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

You basically need multiple choice for the poll, because everyone will have to click the last option, but want still to signify some level of support or hate. :wub:


Done :(

#4 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:39 AM

View PostAsmudius Heng, on 15 May 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Done :(

That was more a joke comment, but in the end, it doesn't matter, I suppose.

Note I added some commentary on the actual post.

#5 scJazz

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 06:18 AM

Neat on so many levels but in the land of 6 PPC... Alpha... Alpha... Boom!... shutdown!!! No real benefit occurs with all this sensor mode stuff. I get to high ground with some cover. Zoom in and blast the little dot that comes over the ridge. Whether the dot is ECMing, BAPing, Passive, Active, or God's Eye view makes precisely ZERO difference!

The end.

#6 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 15 May 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

You basically need multiple choice for the poll, because everyone will have to click the last option, but want still to signify some level of support or hate. :D

A part I don't agree with is that I don't think LRMs should be extremely powerful if you don't use sensor and stuff smart, and very weak if use them well.

It's a matter of degrees, but I want less extremes, not more.

One thing I would change no matter what - force homing weapon users to re-lock a target after they fired their missiles. After they are fired away, the missile should be fire & forget (which makes some things easier), but will also force them to accept targeting delay penalties (which makes some things harder).


I may have used too strong a word to describe LRMs. Punishing meaning effective not OP situationally. I imagine a system such as this would mean major changes and testing for LRMs which rely on the targetting data.

What you say makes sense though. One thing that has always annoyed me is that taking a single LRM rack is like punishment beause you have to guide your single (weak) salvo into the target which often means you cannot effectivly fire any of your other weapons. People tend to boat LRMs or not take them at all - a fire and forget system would allow a single rack to be useful, as long as getting a shot off took some level of patience and skill for sure.

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 15 May 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

That was more a joke comment, but in the end, it doesn't matter, I suppose.


Made me chuckle so i did it, poll is kinda a joke anyway, prefer actual discourse of an idea because it actually keep the thread alive - a great idea not discussed gets buried. So you either have to bump shamelessly (like i am doing now :lol:) or post flame bait which is not something I wish to do.

In fact i woke up this morning and this entire thread was on page two, never to be seen again unless i replied.

View PostscJazz, on 15 May 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

Neat on so many levels but in the land of 6 PPC... Alpha... Alpha... Boom!... shutdown!!! No real benefit occurs with all this sensor mode stuff. I get to high ground with some cover. Zoom in and blast the little dot that comes over the ridge. Whether the dot is ECMing, BAPing, Passive, Active, or God's Eye view makes precisely ZERO difference!

The end.


This is not meant to be a suggestion to help current weapon game balance, that is something that needs to be looked into as a separate issue.

However, I believe a little more stealth would allow brawlers and flankers a little more leeway when trying to deal with high alpha boats. It is not a solution to that but does give a tactical option for the everyday mech without ECM.

A poptarter might also have a split second delay in finding a target if it take a little longer to appear when he jumps. Using only eyeballs might mean they miss a few opportunities that instant detection allowed them previously.

#7 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:58 PM

Bumping for more feedback

#8 Theodor Kling

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:07 AM

Nice setup.
Some changes and one addition I would propose:
Make detection ranges mass/speed and heat dependent. An assault running near shutdownshould be detactable at 800m+ easily even if you run passive.

Make detection times not jus mass and heat, but also speed dependent . More precisly: Dependent on the ration between speed and mass. Because that is what would affect MR sensors.

The addition is for NARC: It should also make targeting shutdown mechs possible.. so should BAP at close range ( canon after all ).
Also it should allow LRMs to home in when fired from a mech on passive sensors. They are after all mereley folowing a beacon, the mechs targeting systems are not involved.

This brings me to another quirk, that I am not sure should get in: Fireing homing weapons ( especially LRMs) from passive snesors IF someone else is targetign yoru target with active sensors. Would make sense , the targeting data is available, no need to go active yourself. But it is risky balancing wise... expet ... and here comes the part that probably never will happen in this FPS style game:

C3

Make the passive use of other teammates active sensors, and the (lock free) target info relay of teammates running passive dependent on C3 networks. If you got a C3 slave and at least one mech a C3 master ( for simplicity I would diverge from canon here and allow a master to link 7 or 11 slaves) you get your C3 network. If a slave gets into an ECM buble he falls out of the network, if the Master does so, the whole net collapses.
This would give you a powerfull tool, especially for LRM+Scout teams, but at the cost of tonnage/crit slots.
1/1 for the slave is not much, but might hurt the lights where every ton is important. The 5/5 for the master do hurt, but it also brings intergral TAG.





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