100 replies to this topic

[Steel Claws]

Lets face some truths.

Truth 1: The only real issue people are complaining about with PPCs is when there are high numbers of them. But then there are also those 6 LL stalkers to contend with and they are every bit as deadly as a 6 PPC stalker. The real thing is that the game rewards high alpha builds. Boating isn't an easy fix because many mechs have many of the same weapon in the stock config. So what we really need is something to reduce the reward of a high alpha build that doesn't effect smaller alpha mechs.

Truth 2: Ballistics are pretty much OK since their weight and ammunition dependancy limits them already.

If anyone is really serious about reducing High alpha energy weapon reward then how about this:

1. Assign each engine an energy value for how much "juice" it can put to use for weapons output in Joules. The bigger the engine the more power it puts out. This charge would be stored in capacitors in the engine core.

2. Assign each weapon an energy expendature value. For instance a small laser could use 5 joules, a medium 8 joules and a large 20. PPCs could come in at around 30. ACs and missiles would be 1 - 5 joules because of the loading mechanisms.

3. If the peak power usage is greater than the power available - damage is reduced. If you have 90 joules available for instance and fired 4 PPCs at 120 joules power expendature - the damage would be reduced to 75% of weapon normal. If you fire 6 at 30 joules you would be at 180 expendature and do 50% damage. Bingo you just wasted 21 tons.

4. Have a energy recharge time that is required to rebuild full charge in the capacitors after a weapon firing proportional to the amount used. That way you cannot say fire 3 wepaons at full power and then fire three more immediatley after.

Not only is would this effectively stop High Alpha energy boating, it is very realistic.

Flame on.

[JokerVictor]

I like it.

Though I do think that implementing hardpoint sizes would be a simpler fix. But, that'll never happen, so yes.. your idea is good.

I particularly like that it encourages mixing ballistic/missile weapons with energy loadouts. Certain mechs that are designed to boat the big pew pew guns could get a bonus, like the unloved and awful Awesome.

Edited by JokerVictor, 18 May 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Zylo]

Combine this idea with a lower heat capacity (with higher heat dissipation rate) and it could be a very good solution to the current high alpha energy boating issue.

[Steel Claws]

My initial thought is that the engines would produce 25% of the engine size rating in joules. Weapons values could be fine tuned from there though I think the values I put up above would be fairly close to what would be necessary. There could also be a base amount based on the chassis and the motor size adds to it. This would help mechs like the 4P and Awesomes. The numbers would just have to be changed. It could be like Base amount + Engine size * 10% or some such.

Then they could always sell the weapons capacitor upgrade module......

Edited by Steel Claws, 18 May 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

PGI already has their own plan for dealing with excessive boating. We'll have to wait and see how it turns out.

[Renthrak]

I've been working on a comprehensive set of tweaks for this problem.

http://mwomercs.com/...ce-first-draft/

[trollocaustic]

Quote

Lie 2: Ballistics are pretty much OK since their weight and ammunition dependancy limits them already.

No, they have no heat to speak of and can fire so many more rounds than they should.
A energy weapon's lower damage and heat cripples them, a ballisdick doesn't have any restrictions other than "Weight" which can be effortlessly removed with endo-steel and ferro-fiberous, not to mention extra-light engines and DHS (Which they need exactly 0 of with a 250 engine).

[Zylo]

trollocaustic, on 18 May 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

No, they have no heat to speak of and can fire so many more rounds than they should.
A energy weapon's lower damage and heat cripples them, a ballisdick doesn't have any restrictions other than "Weight" which can be effortlessly removed with endo-steel and ferro-fiberous, not to mention extra-light engines and DHS (Which they need exactly 0 of with a 250 engine).

Ever heard of ammo? That is a significant downside of ballistic weapons. Of course you only made this forum account a few days ago so I'm not surprised by your ignorant comments about ballistic weapons.

So tell me, are you really a new player or the troll account of some player who doesn't want their PPC boat nerfed?

[trollocaustic]

Ever heard of heat?
Yeah that thing that unlike ammo, actually does something.

[Zylo]

trollocaustic, on 18 May 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

Ever heard of heat?
Yeah that thing that unlike ammo, actually does something.

Show me the ballistic weapon that can fire with 0 ammo.

[Steel Claws]

Keifomofutu, on 18 May 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

PGI already has their own plan for dealing with excessive boating. We'll have to wait and see how it turns out.

Yeah we'll have to wait to see what they come up with but from what I've seen it is based on multiples of ANY weapon. This just isn't fair to many mechs that are natural or stock boats. There are too many mechs that have only energy slots. The main issue is large hard hitting weapons - not the smaller ones.

Renthrak, on 18 May 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

I've been working on a comprehensive set of tweaks for this problem.

http://mwomercs.com/...ce-first-draft/

Your solution has many of the same issues that the one above has.

trollocaustic, on 18 May 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

No, they have no heat to speak of and can fire so many more rounds than they should.
A energy weapon's lower damage and heat cripples them, a ballisdick doesn't have any restrictions other than "Weight" which can be effortlessly removed with endo-steel and ferro-fiberous, not to mention extra-light engines and DHS (Which they need exactly 0 of with a 250 engine).

While I figure it is a troll I will respond. I have yet to see any truly effective boated ballistics. Ballistic slots are rather rare - most mechs only have one or two if any at all. The only exception is Jager and even those aren't terribly effective - even the 6 AC 2 ride is pretty easy to kill and overheats fairly easily - yes ballistics can run hot. Further they are harder to hit with because of their slower travel rates.

[trollocaustic]

the AC/2 has the same speed (2000) as the PPC. it also has longer range and higher DPS, you can just sit beyond everyone else's effective range and still do 24 dps with the AC/2 truck.
The main problem with your arguement is how DHS (The main reason energy is viable in TT) is nerfed by 30% (1.4 vs. 2) while ammo has been increased by 40-50%

[Taemien]

TT aside, this isn't how energy weapons work in the lore. When an energy weapon fires, it draws energy directly from the reactor. Drawing energy in such a manner creates heat. The reactors have enough juice to power many more weapons than a mech could possibly carry. The limiting factor has always been heat. Heat disrupts the components in a mech and can cause failure of the magnetic field that keeps the plasma inside the reactor from leaking out into the mech itself.

I want to see how PGI does their balancing pass before looking at this one. Their fixes seem a little more elegant and dynamic than simply limiting energy weapons by engines. Limiting weapons means builds will be less unique. I'd like for their to be more choices in how one builds a mech with as little restriction as possible.

However I'm all for there being consequences for those choices. Let players put 6 PPCs on a mech. But to get any use out of that many they have to chain fire them.

Many of you are looking at this the wrong way. You want to nerf 6PPC mechs into the ground to the point of being obsolete while allowing 8 medium lasers to remain viable. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Coralld]

trollocaustic, on 18 May 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

Ever heard of heat?
Yeah that thing that unlike ammo, actually does something.

So you can fire a round from a gun with out ammunition? That's amazing!! I bet you can magically divide by zero as well, I am sure physicists all over the world would love to examine a black hole.

Troll post deserves a troll response.

For a more none troll response. Ammo can and will eventually be exhausted, they also have a tendency to, gee, I don't know, EXPLODE.
Also, currently, there is really no heat penalty, simply shutting down is not a big enough draw back for bloat boating LL and PPCs because they shoot from such a distance its impossible to close in on them before they are back up and running.

Edited by Coralld, 18 May 2013 - 06:54 PM.

[trollocaustic]

so being helpless and a easy target is ok?
PPCs and LL, even the ER version, are outranged by UAC/5 and AC/2.
If your a brawler getting sniped, that's because snipers should be able to gun down brawlers that charge them from their max range.

[Livewyr]

Zylo, on 18 May 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

Show me the ballistic weapon that can fire with 0 ammo.

His mouth seems to be firing with no ammo...

[Keifomofutu]

Livewyr, on 18 May 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

His mouth seems to be firing with no ammo...

Saliva is not infinite.

[Renthrak]

Livewyr, on 18 May 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

His mouth seems to be firing with no ammo...

That's one of the hazards of keeping ammo in your head.

[Zylo]

trollocaustic, on 18 May 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

so being helpless and a easy target is ok?
PPCs and LL, even the ER version, are outranged by UAC/5 and AC/2.
If your a brawler getting sniped, that's because snipers should be able to gun down brawlers that charge them from their max range.

Wait... are you claiming to be helpless at range while taking damage from AC/2s and UAC/5s when you have the ER versions of energy weapons?

I think I found the source of the problem, this guy hasn't heard of cover.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Man the only problem with this idea is turning the game into spreadsheetwarrior online. I don't want to have to do a powerpoint layout to see if my mechs loadout will have enough power to operate effectively. They could upgrade the mechlab to showcase energy drain as you install weapons, but I don't want to spend large amounts of time changing loadouts so I don't have to see the energizer bunny go across the screen when I push the trigger.