13 replies to this topic

[80Bit]

I would like to clear up some misinformation about LRMs. Some newer players don't know what they used to be like, and other players don't seem to know they will be changing again soon. This post is not meant to be an argument about what LRMS should be like, only what they were, are, and will be like.

First, in case you missed it, PGI has stated that two issues are currently making LRMs to powerful in the game. Details of that can be seen at: http://mwomercs.com/...93#entry2369593 So don't go ranting about how LRMs are OP right now, the current state is temporary.


What LRMS were like yesteryear (December 2012 to Februrary 2012)

Back in December of last year, not long after MWO went into open beta, PGI finished a series of bug fixes, adjustments, and feature additions that put LRMs into a fairly stable state for several months. In this state, LRM missiles had a fairly shallow flight path, traveled at 100 m/s, and did 1.8 damage per missile. They were viable, and useful, but really depended on TAG and/or Artemis to be able to do significant damage, and mechs could take cover from them behind anything slightly taller than their mech. Even though damage was at a high 1.8 per missile, it was mitigated by the wide missile spread; even with TAG and Artemis not all your missiles would necessarily hit a target. Personally I liked the state they were in during this time, but some still complained they were OP, while others stated that ECM ruined them and they were worthless.


What LRMS were like for a few days (March 2013)

In March of these year PGI put through a patch that fixed a bug with splash damage not working right. This introduced a new bug/feature that made splash damage work even less right and do massive additive damage. This caused LRM missiles, which were still at 1.8 damage per missile, to do huge damage to small and medium mechs, and increased damage even to larger mechs. In this state the missiles were totally broken and a single salvo of LRMs could kill many mechs.


What LRMs were like yesterday (April and May 2013)

PGI "fixed" the above issues with a Hotfix in late March. This hotfix pushed LRM damage down to .7 per missile and reduced splash damage radius. No changes were made to the missile spread, speed, or flight path. After these changes, LRMS because very ineffective and little used. A player could shoot 30 LRM missiles with TAG+Artemis, and only manage to do 10-15 unfocused damage. I don't know why LRMs were simply not reverted to their pre-splash "fix" state; I guess splash damage changes were a genie out of a bottle at this point.


What LRMs are like now (May 21st patch)

This weeks patch saw several major changes to LRMS. First, damage was increased from .7 to .9 per missile (still far short of the old 1.8 number). Second, speed was increased from 100 m/s to 120 m/s. Third, missile spread was decreased a little overall, so the missiles are packed more tightly and more are likely to hit. Finally, the flight trajectory was changed a little to give them a steeper up and down angle.

That last change is bugged however. The steeper flight angle is only supposed to work if someone else is spotting the target for you, so you can shoot targets behind cover if they are scouted for you. But that steep angle is working even if you are self spotting, so if a target runs behind cover and you maintain lock long enough, your missiles will dive right in.

Another problem is that missiles have a tighter grouping now, but splash damage still happens, causing smaller mechs to take a lot of center torso damage.

These two issues combine to make LRMs overly effective, especially on smaller mechs and in situations where mechs only have short cover.


What LRMs will be like tomorrow (Next patch or hotfix)

Ok, here is the big one. What will LRMs be like after they are "fixed"? Who the hell knows. The big problem here is splash damage. It is not clear what they are going to actually do to it to fix the problem. Splash damage + tight missile grouping = death to small mechs. This is because missiles that hit the arms and side torso also push splash damage to the center torso, so smaller mechs take a disproportionate amount of CT damage. And if they just remove splash damage (which they really don't seem to want to do)? If you do that, then the .9 damage on LRM missiles becomes to low. In short, it is very hard to say what state LRMs will actually be in after fixes. They may still be OP, or they may go back to being little used.


TLDR;

LRM balance is a very complex issue dealing with missile grouping, tracking strength, speed, damage, splash damage, and target size. Do not expect them to be balanced after the upcoming patch/hotfix, I think it will take even more time after that.

Edited by 80Bit, 23 May 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[MonkeyDCecil]

The fix is easy. No splash damage and each missile does 1 damage. Keep the speed, the tight grouping and change the flight path a little. But no splash damage, and each missile does 1 damage. Problem fixed. Splash damage is not needed. Same goes for SRMs and SSRMs no splash damage make each missile do 2 damage. keep the speed, tighten the grouping and keep the flight path. There missile done. Splash damage is wrong. I know that in real life missiles and other explosions have "splash damage", but this is a game. So it is not needed.

[Novakaine]

MonkeyDCecil, on 23 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

The fix is easy. No splash damage and each missile does 1 damage. Keep the speed, the tight grouping and change the flight path a little. But no splash damage, and each missile does 1 damage. Problem fixed. Splash damage is not needed. Same goes for SRMs and SSRMs no splash damage make each missile do 2 damage. keep the speed, tighten the grouping and keep the flight path. There missile done. Splash damage is wrong. I know that in real life missiles and other explosions have "splash damage", but this is a game. So it is not needed.

Being a Rocketeer myself, I hate to say I agree with you.
An explosion is just that bits metal flying everywhere, and yes including all over the mech.
However as for game balance the splash damage need to go bye bye.

[Sheraf]

It calls adaptation:)

[Hotthedd]

MonkeyDCecil, on 23 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

The fix is easy. No splash damage and each missile does 1 damage. Keep the speed, the tight grouping and change the flight path a little. But no splash damage, and each missile does 1 damage. Problem fixed. Splash damage is not needed. Same goes for SRMs and SSRMs no splash damage make each missile do 2 damage. keep the speed, tighten the grouping and keep the flight path. There missile done. Splash damage is wrong. I know that in real life missiles and other explosions have "splash damage", but this is a game. So it is not needed.

The grouping should only be as tight as it is now if Artemis is equipped. Without Artemis, there should be significant spread.

But spread is not an inherently bad thing. It allows the missiles to hit many parts of a mech, increasing the chance of hitting an already damaged component. It also discourages the enemy mechs from huddling too close together.

[IceSerpent]

MonkeyDCecil, on 23 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

The fix is easy. No splash damage and each missile does 1 damage. Keep the speed, the tight grouping and change the flight path a little. But no splash damage, and each missile does 1 damage. Problem fixed. Splash damage is not needed. Same goes for SRMs and SSRMs no splash damage make each missile do 2 damage. keep the speed, tighten the grouping and keep the flight path. There missile done. Splash damage is wrong. I know that in real life missiles and other explosions have "splash damage", but this is a game. So it is not needed.

Your proposed damage values are off - you can't use TT damage values when missiles spread damage randomly, lasers have player-controlled spread, and ballistics/PPCs have no spread at all.

[Hotthedd]

IceSerpent, on 23 May 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Your proposed damage values are off - you can't use TT damage values when missiles spread damage randomly, lasers have player-controlled spread, and ballistics/PPCs have no spread at all.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in TT missiles had spread, while energy and ballistics did not. (The U/ACs rolled for separate hit locations IIRC)

[IceSerpent]

Hotthedd, on 23 May 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but in TT missiles had spread, while energy and ballistics did not. (The U/ACs rolled for separate hit locations IIRC)

In TT everything hits random locations. Yes, missiles have more spread, but "boating" doesn't put all damage into a single spot. So, it was pretty much balanced aside from a few exceptions (i.e. useless AC2). In MWO you would end up with SRM36 splat cat doing 72 pts of damage spread all over the place and AC40 K2 landing 40 pts of damage into CT every time - guess which one would be the go-to build and which one would end up in the unwanted toys box. Same goes for LRMs vs. PPCs, if you want to look at long range configs.

[Hotthedd]

IceSerpent, on 23 May 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

In TT everything hits random locations. Yes, missiles have more spread, but "boating" doesn't put all damage into a single spot. So, it was pretty much balanced aside from a few exceptions (i.e. useless AC2). In MWO you would end up with SRM36 splat cat doing 72 pts of damage spread all over the place and AC40 K2 landing 40 pts of damage into CT every time - guess which one would be the go-to build and which one would end up in the unwanted toys box. Same goes for LRMs vs. PPCs, if you want to look at long range configs.

Right. So the real issue is convergence for ballistics and energy weapons. If alpha striking with them did not have every weapon hitting the same spot, then missiles would not need splash damage and/or very tight grouping to be as effective as ballistics and energy weapons, right?

[Bobdolemite]

Im glad someone did something to help clarify this situation for people who either don't read the patch notes or choose not to for whatever reason. The two known issues with this patch are a big part of the problems people are having:

Artemis direct line of sight bonus is applied regardless of line of site

Narc bonus is applied regardless if target mech has a NARC tag applied or not

These two things tighten the spread of the missiles, the problem is further compounded because people started actually scouting and using TAG again, in essence were seeing the fully buffed "if all conditions are met" bonus applied to nearly every salvo.

Once these known issues are fixed there will be some relief. LRMS will (and should) always be dangerous though, the hotfix that killed them introduced two months+ of flukey lets run around anywhere we want to cover or not, and this led people into new strategies that will no longer work with viable LRMS.

The transition will be tough especially for non ECM lights and mediums that previously had their largest predator removed.

On the battlefield the sky is always respected (ever since the introduction of the bow and arrow) people have had to worry about destruction raining down. 3050 is no different, we must re-learn the battlefield again and start to be smart about where we go and what cover is available. And yea it sucks when you come across an entire team of boaters, just the same as it sucked to come across a team of snipers, or for that matter any highly armed opponent. This is no different.

On a side note, as to the splash damage affecting CT - I think this is true but there is a catch. I think that half the time people think it was their core it was a side torso on a mech with XL engines or perhaps damaged components. Missiles are great at spreading damage and they tend to *** off those arms or side torso weapons which can cause a great deal of damage. So its not necesarilly all about the splash damage when people are falling quick. More likely 2-3 ppc or gauss hits + a missile salvo.

Edited by Bobdolemite, 23 May 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Hotthedd, on 23 May 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Right. So the real issue is convergence for ballistics and energy weapons. If alpha striking with them did not have every weapon hitting the same spot, then missiles would not need splash damage and/or very tight grouping to be as effective as ballistics and energy weapons, right?

Not quite. Alpha striking is irrelevant, because you can easily chain fire multiple weapon groups (either manually or via a macro) and achieve the same effect. Missiles don't need splash damage, but they do need tight grouping and appropriate damage boost.
Basically, the traditional BT/MW balance goes along the lines of trading range for firepower with virtually all configs for a given range being equally viable. I.e. you can build a brawler around an AC20, or around SRMs, or around medium lasers, or any combination of the above - the differences should be minimal. Any decent brawler should have an overwhelming advantage over a sniper at point blank range and vice versa at long range. Unfortunately, PGI seems to be dead set on inventing their own balance instead of using the existing scheme.

[Fate 6]

MonkeyDCecil, on 23 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

The fix is easy. No splash damage and each missile does 1 damage. Keep the speed, the tight grouping and change the flight path a little. But no splash damage, and each missile does 1 damage. Problem fixed. Splash damage is not needed. Same goes for SRMs and SSRMs no splash damage make each missile do 2 damage. keep the speed, tighten the grouping and keep the flight path. There missile done. Splash damage is wrong. I know that in real life missiles and other explosions have "splash damage", but this is a game. So it is not needed.

They also have to fix the CT homing. If they increase damage to 1 and remove splash you're still gonna get cored out really fast. I had a Hunchback with 2 LRM 15s core my BJ in 3 volleys today.

Basically the problem with all the OP weapons (PPCs, LRMs, Gauss, AC20) is that they do too much damage to exactly where people want it.

Edited by Fate 6, 23 May 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[TVMA Doc]

MonkeyDCecil, on 23 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

The fix is easy. No splash damage and each missile does 1 damage. Keep the speed, the tight grouping and change the flight path a little. But no splash damage, and each missile does 1 damage. Problem fixed. Splash damage is not needed. Same goes for SRMs and SSRMs no splash damage make each missile do 2 damage. keep the speed, tighten the grouping and keep the flight path. There missile done. Splash damage is wrong. I know that in real life missiles and other explosions have "splash damage", but this is a game. So it is not needed.

MonkeyDCecil, on 23 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

The fix is easy. No splash damage and each missile does 1 damage. Keep the speed, the tight grouping and change the flight path a little. But no splash damage, and each missile does 1 damage. Problem fixed. Splash damage is not needed. Same goes for SRMs and SSRMs no splash damage make each missile do 2 damage. keep the speed, tighten the grouping and keep the flight path. There missile done. Splash damage is wrong. I know that in real life missiles and other explosions have "splash damage", but this is a game. So it is not needed.

The flight path needs to be changed more than "a little". I'm currently having entire missile groupings literally wrap around the sides/fly over the top of high buildings and him my 100% concealed mech. There is literally NO way to avoid LRMs at the moment. Cover is useless, AMS only kills one or two. It's a matter of somehow never being targeted vs. once you are targeted the countdown timer is running.

I've even seen people just dumb firing on mechs without bothering to check to see if there are obstructions in the way because it no longer matters. Fire at the mech directly behind a ridge that would require the missiles to come literally STRAIGHT DOWN? No problem, they do just that.

Fate 6, on 23 May 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

They also have to fix the CT homing. If they increase damage to 1 and remove splash you're still gonna get cored out really fast. I had a Hunchback with 2 LRM 15s core my BJ in 3 volleys today.

Basically the problem with all the OP weapons (PPCs, LRMs, Gauss, AC20) is that they do too much damage to exactly where people want it.

I've had my Jager cored from no damage to dead CT with just two LRM 20s fired in a single volley. I've also had these same vollies literally wrap around major obstructions to do the same. Unless AMS is DRASTICALLY beefed up or the pathing is changed, LRMs now change the game. There is NO counter.

[zorak ramone]

MonkeyDCecil, on 23 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

The fix is easy. No splash damage and each missile does 1 damage.

This

If something is bugged, then you fix the bug (splash damage). Changing other things to work around it (nerfing damage, altering trajectory, etc.) is NOT the way to fix things because you still haven't fixed the underlying problem.

I say remove splash on all missiles, revert their damage to 1.8 per LRM and 2.5 per SRM/SSRM, and work from there. Missiles will be doing the same damage to all mechs and then we can at least starting balancing the damage to something sensible.