86 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Okay, this may sound like a crazy idea, but here it is:

Loosen the restrictions on maximum armour per hit location
(Example: allowing a Catapult, if the player wants to, to put 80 armor on his Let Arm and 20 on his CT, if he deems that a good idea.)

Instead of setting a variable maximum of armor for each hit location, allow peole to distribute their max armor of the entire mech as they see fit across all hit locations. Maybe we still put in an upper limit (say, 1/3rd or 1/4th of the max armor of the mech), but everything else is entirely player choice.

This doesn't change the actual amount of armor a player mech can have, and it doesn't affect stock mechs -they keep their standard armor distribution.

I think it would be interseting to see how the "meta" would evolve based on this. Players would naturally try to armor their CT more then now, because that's the prime target of anyone that knows how to use a mouse and a crosshair.
But the result would be they'd have to skimp on leg or arm armor, and suddenly these become much more viable targets. "SHoot of his ears" could become a more viable tactic then ever to deal with Catapults).

I assume at some point the meta would kinda stabilize, but maybe it would ever shift - as it seemes "settled", people go deliberately against trends to fool their enemy to waste shots on supposedly weak armored settings.

Anyway, the advantage here is - the best hit locations to shoot at become less predictable, and it's not all a Center-Torso coring fest.

I suppose one thing we then would stil lneed is a way to figure out enemies armor distrubtion. Maybe something that would reeinforce the role of scouts that could detect these information and share them with team mates, say an improvement of the Target Info Gathering module or something like that.

What do you think?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 26 May 2013 - 11:53 PM.

[Solomon Ward]

I think http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor fits the bill better.
It basically gives the opportunity to put twice the amount of armor to a location.
And it is something i would like to see implemented.
Especially since Omnimechs can´t equip it.


Edit: Actually i am not sure if it would allow twice the armor.The description is a bit misleading to me as a non native speaker.
Edit:I know this is quite different from what you have in mind.       But it would give the same possibilities and additionally the option to make a mech tankier.

Edited by Solomon Ward, 27 May 2013 - 12:13 AM.

[One Medic Army]

I like and support this idea.
I regularly shave the arms and legs on my assault mechs (40 for arms on stalker, 50 for arms on atlas) and still they almost never get blown off. I know others who shave even more.
It's just somewhat silly to carry more than 2 tons of armor on each arm, when your CT can get cored through in seconds without shots ever hitting somewhere else.

Or to put things another way, the current armor distributions are proper for the TT hit location chart, not for a real-time FPS-esque game where everyone shoots CT all the time, and can actually hit it.

[Dragonkindred]

Although I understand your frustration with the system as it is, what you are suggesting is totally unbalanced.

At least the current system has some logic behind it.

Also, with your system you would see assaults with max armour stripping their legs down to bulk up their torsos. The problem being that an Atlas with 50-60 armour on the legs is still no push over.

[MustrumRidcully]

Dragonkindred, on 27 May 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

Although I understand your frustration with the system as it is, what you are suggesting is totally unbalanced.

At least the current system has some logic behind it.

Also, with your system you would see assaults with max armour stripping their legs down to bulk up their torsos. The problem being that an Atlas with 50-60 armour on the legs is still no push over.

50-60 armour on legs is probably what an Atlas currently has. Only lights seem to max out leg armour in this game.
Of course, the weight spared there is not used to improve CT armor, of course, it'S used to install more/heavier weapons or armour.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 27 May 2013 - 01:22 AM.

[Sephlock]

YES! I could strip my Hunchback so it literally becomes an engine, a skeleton, an ac/20, and as much armor as I can possibly cram onto my hunch side (none left for the CT, even).

[Strum Wealh]

Solomon Ward, on 27 May 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

I think http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor fits the bill better.
It basically gives the opportunity to put twice the amount of armor to a location.
And it is something i would like to see implemented.
Especially since Omnimechs can´t equip it.


Edit: Actually i am not sure if it would allow twice the armor.The description is a bit misleading to me as a non native speaker.
Edit:I know this is quite different from what you have in mind. But it would give the same possibilities and additionally the option to make a mech tankier.

The Sarna description can be a bit hard to digest, but essentially: Hardened Armor weighs twice as much per individual armor "point" (e.g. 32 "points" of Standard Armor in MWO weigh 1.0 tons, then 32 "points" of Hardened Armor in MWO would weigh 2.0 tons), but each individual armor "point" of Hardened Armor could take twice as much damage to remove (essentially, a "50% damage reduction").

As such, a given 'Mech could still carry the same number of armor points of Hardened Armor as they would mount in Standard Armor (e.g. a 75-ton Orion could carry up to 462 points of Hardened Armor or up to 462 points of Standard Armor (its maximum armor load in both cases), with the normal armor distribution system remaining intact), with the former gaining enhanced durability (by having the effect of twice as much armor) in exchange for weight (and, by TT rules, a speed/mobility penalty).

Still better, the Devs could implement both Hardened Armor and the Patchwork Armor system (described on page 377 of Tactical Operations) and allow units to mount a mix of Standard Armor, FF Armor, and Hardened Armor across the 'Mech...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 27 May 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Sephlock, on 27 May 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

YES! I could strip my Hunchback so it literally becomes an engine, a skeleton, an ac/20, and as much armor as I can possibly cram onto my hunch side (none left for the CT, even).

Well, the bit about the CT might be unhealthy.
And for emergency cases like you, we could still institute the "no more than 1/3 or 1/4 of the total armor per hit location". Probably more to protect you from yourself then anything else.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 27 May 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[Neolisk]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 May 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

What do you think?

Yes, because currently you are being shot at the torso only (aiming at CT, but also accidentally hitting LT and RT). Nobody shoots at legs or arms of an assault mech. If you bump up armor on that, people will start looking at your weak spots, instead of taking over with just brute force.

[TexAce]

I would love this

[Deathlike]

I'd think about it.

There is an unintended side effect that certain mechs with "useless arms" would benefit from it. Think Centurion with the current damage transfer behavior...

Other mechs like the Cicada and Spider would also benefit from this.

[Solomon Ward]

Strum Wealh, on 27 May 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

...

Thank you for the clarification Strum

[MasterErrant]

Solomon Ward, on 27 May 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

I think http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor fits the bill better.
It basically gives the opportunity to put twice the amount of armor to a location.
And it is something i would like to see implemented.
Especially since Omnimechs can´t equip it.


Edit: Actually i am not sure if it would allow twice the armor.The description is a bit misleading to me as a non native speaker.
Edit:I know this is quite different from what you have in mind. But it would give the same possibilities and additionally the option to make a mech tankier.

Re read the entry it doesn't do what you imply that it does. it's mosly a counter to AP ammo and gives a slight protection against crits. It does not give double armour protection. the net armour is the same as standard

Edited by MasterErrant, 27 May 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Spirit of the Wolf]

Well I can already think of a way to incorporate the Sarna rules into this game:
For the 'more difficult to pilot' portion, PGI could reduce the speed of turning for the entire mech (legs, torso, and arms turn slower), as well as reduce the total amount of turning the torso and arms can do. (Basically, they could make it so that if you don't have the corresponding Basic efficiencies, then you suffer a loss in performance in those areas. If you have the Basic efficiencies, then you are 'back' to the 'standard' (un-upgraded) level, and if the Basic efficiencies are doubled, then you only get a small upgrade to those efficiencies instead.)
For the 'reduction in speed' portion, it would need to be a set reduction, as opposed to a percentage one, as it reduces MP by 1, instead of by x. That should be fairly simple -- just have a speed penalty of, say, 10kph, or something like that. (Would need to be tweaked, most likely, as I just used 10 for an example.)

That said, I honestly don't think this would contribute much to the game. And there's already so much other stuff planned.

[FerrolupisXIII]

MasterErrant, on 27 May 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Re read the entry it doesn't do what you imply that it does. it's mosly a counter to AP ammo and gives a slight protection against crits. It does not give double armour protection. the net armour is the same as standard

not quite right. its 8 points per ton. As Mech armor is actually measured in points, you can effectively equip the same amount of points, with each point absorbing twice as much damage, but weighing twice as much.

The movement penalties would be difficult to go by as the Engine System is very very different in MWO. the penalty was only for running, not walking. and MWO makes no distinction between the two. i could see it making you Accelerate slower, and maybe a small nerf to your top speed.

we have no implementation of pilot skill in match, so that negative is out the window.

and currently we have no AP weapons, or through armor crits like table top. perhaps those last two cancel out?

i'd absolutely love to see this, personally. way better than F.F. armor for the bigger mechs. Implementing this and then the aforementioned patchwork armor, you could effectively up armor a section by equipping it with Hardened Plates. this would be nice on many mechs, making it much harder to rip out those important section of certain mechs. the hunchback certainly comes to mind, and I'd toss it on my Catapult's arms, Centurions ballistic arms would benefit, just to name a few. an Atlas with H.A. center/side torso's would be absolutely terrifying! 200 points worth of armor on the CT? crazy.

[MustrumRidcully]

Deathlike, on 27 May 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

I'd think about it.

There is an unintended side effect that certain mechs with "useless arms" would benefit from it. Think Centurion with the current damage transfer behavior...

Other mechs like the Cicada and Spider would also benefit from this.

You can already not put armor on these mech parts right now - you just can't invest it in armoring something else better, you "have" to use it on guns, heat sinks or ammo.
But you might not be wrong that it would be used only for increasing armor somewhere else, but maybe that's a good perk? After all, the disadantage of these mechs is that their weapons are concentrated on certain locations which are thus more valuable targets.

[Deathlike]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 May 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

You can already not put armor on these mech parts right now - you just can't invest it in armoring something else better, you "have" to use it on guns, heat sinks or ammo.
But you might not be wrong that it would be used only for increasing armor somewhere else, but maybe that's a good perk? After all, the disadantage of these mechs is that their weapons are concentrated on certain locations which are thus more valuable targets.

I will put it this way.. with the Cents, I'd put more leg armor on them due to how the zombie situation makes them magical.

[Modo44]

No. You can already reduce armor where you think you will not need it. Just get a bigger 'mech and go from there. Other than that, learn to twist/dodge.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 May 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

Okay, this may sound like a crazy idea, but here it is:

Loosen the restrictions on maximum armour per hit location
(Example: allowing a Catapult, if the player wants to, to put 80 armor on his Let Arm and 20 on his CT, if he deems that a good idea.)

Instead of setting a variable maximum of armor for each hit location, allow peole to distribute their max armor of the entire mech as they see fit across all hit locations.

Indeed, crazy idea. So, according to your completely unrealistic rules, it would be allowed to put all 20 tons of armor on the right leg of an Atlas. I would like to see you steer that 'Mech without falling on your face. I'm not the big physicist, but I guess you'd rip out that leg after making your first step.

Battlemechs are massive constructions of metal. These warmachines would serve no purpose if they couldn't stand on their feet. And now you come along after decades of established, working rulesets and you think you can just strip off some armor here and here, and move it over there...?

I got another idea. Why not enable the players to move EVERYTHING as they like? 2xAC/20 in your right leg? No problemo. 4xLRM/20 in your head? Of course!

The devs do that and we got ourselves a new game: Retardwarrior Online.

Edited by Typhoon Storm 2142, 28 May 2013 - 04:12 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Voted against - I'm sorry, but I like both a proximity to the original TT rules as well as a certain amount of realism in the game. The poster above already listed the reasons why such a feature would just be too much for my own taste.

If it were my call, armor allocation could even affect a limb's performance in the game, with an arm or a leg becoming more and more sluggish the more tons of plating you put on it beyond 50% of the current maximum capacity. Now that would be a feature we can talk about.