59 replies to this topic

[Liberator]

There are just not enough shots per tonn for our ammo dependent weapons, unless you bring several tonns you will most often run dry, and these tonns are in addition to the great weight of ballistics, and the heat and weight of missiles.

I'ts simply about the feel, i really have the feeling that ammo loads are to small.
Then again i disregard ballistic weapons for energy weapons as long as the hardpoints allow it, shy away from lrms, and after the nerf i don't use srms, but streaks are ok.


Am i just unable to see the greatness of ac's and missiles or do i have a point here?

[Joseph Mallan]

You do know that in the fluff, most Mechs carried enough ammo for 1.5 minutes of fire. Its why there are so many Lasers on most Mechs.

[Karl Streiger]

Nope ammunition is more than enough.
I would accept that the UAC 5 has in comparison with the AC 5 to few ammunition (double shot - 1.1 cool down) and only 25 vs 30 shots per ton.
But still 25 shots for the UAC 5 is 125dmg. So 125dmg per ton is not enough?
We don't have random hit locations, if we had i would agree that ammunition is not enough.... but we don't have random hit location...your shot should hit were you aim at.

In addition I would recommend all that think that they have not enough ammunition to use some energy weapons in addition instead of boating just ammunition feed weapons.

Joseph Mallan, on 03 June 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

You do know that in the fluff, most Mechs carried enough ammo for 1.5 minutes of fire. Its why there are so many Lasers on most Mechs.

If you have for 70 to 90sec ammunition than you have even in MWO enough.

Althoug if you are able not to wast shots you will soon start to realize how boring the game is....

Edited by Karl Streiger, 03 June 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[Ralgas]

depends on what sort of builds you're trying to do. It and the weight is the trade off you get for being able to sustain fire long after the laser boats are shutdown.......

that and usually people are trying to cram 3 or more on a heavy mech. There's a reason behind it!! That said 12v12 is going to make it tough on the gunboats.........

[Joseph Mallan]

Hey I was giving the old school fluff for how much ammo a weapon carries. I personally carry 2-3x the TT ammo and I had 11 tons of LRM for 2 LRM 20s back in CB.

[AnnoyingCat]

Guess someone likes to go gun blazing

[Karl Streiger]

Ralgas, on 03 June 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

depends on what sort of builds you're trying to do. It and the weight is the trade off you get for being able to sustain fire long after the laser boats are shutdown.......

that and usually people are trying to cram 3 or more on a heavy mech. There's a reason behind it!! That said 12v12 is going to make it tough on the gunboats.........

No no - exactly ammunition weapons should...give you a increased damage potential as long as there is enough ammunition. That is something that work remarkable in MWO. Really i like it.

BUT of course there have to be costs. Be lucky that there are no rearm costs any more - so you can spam a target with shells and don't even spend a single moment at thinking about the costs.

So increasing ammunition per ton will give you what? High substained damage out put without trade off?

Joseph Mallan, on 03 June 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

Hey I was giving the old school fluff for how much ammo a weapon carries. I personally carry 2-3x the TT ammo and I had 11 tons of LRM for 2 LRM 20s back in CB.

And I'm carring 150% at best of a similar TT loadout. Seldom more as 2 or 3 tons per weapons - and believe it or not... i hardly remember when my weapons run dry for the last time.

Hm as i though i spend 2.75tons ammo per weapon and game on average. With a bad accuracy of 60% thats ~250dmg.... for my ballistics... enough to kill 2 mechs...but hey I'm not so simple to have just ballistics only...have PPCs, Large Lasers too....

Sir and Madams... I seldom use it but learn to shoot...if you have problems with less ammunition.
If you hit the target - than 80% of your shots have to land in the same hitzone

Edited by Karl Streiger, 03 June 2013 - 05:59 AM.

[Kaldor]

This has been beaten to death for awhile now.

A long standing issue in my mind. They upped ammo a bit from canon to account for double armor. They did not double ammo as they should have. It would go a long ways and open up some flexibility for ballistics just simply by doubling ammo as you could pack 1-2 ton less ammo, have the same firepower, and more of anything else, generally armor.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 03 June 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

No no - exactly ammunition weapons should...give you a increased damage potential as long as there is enough ammunition. That is something that work remarkable in MWO. Really i like it.

BUT of course there have to be costs. Be lucky that there are no rearm costs any more - so you can spam a target with shells and don't even spend a single moment at thinking about the costs.

So increasing ammunition per ton will give you what? High substained damage out put without trade off?



And I'm carring 150% at best of a similar TT loadout. Seldom more as 2 or 3 tons per weapons - and believe it or not... i hardly remember when my weapons run dry for the last time.

Hm as i though i spend 2.75tons ammo per weapon and game on average. With a bad accuracy of 60% thats ~250dmg.... for my ballistics... enough to kill 2 mechs...but hey I'm not so simple to have just ballistics only...have PPCs, Large Lasers too....

Sir and Madams... I seldom use it but learn to shoot...if you have problems with less ammunition.
If you hit the target - than 80% of your shots have to land in the same hitzone

You only have to much ammo if you die with bins loaded. Otherwise, don't tell me how to arm my Mech.

[Boogie Man]

They really do need to do double ammo instead of the current 1.5x ammo. When we have 12v12 the problem will be even worse because if you lose a few people early that is going to mean ammo based weapons are going to have to stretch out their limited damage potential even more than they do now.

Also UAC5 having 5 less shots than AC5 makes no sense. In TT they have the same ammo per ton. They also never increased SRM/SSRM ammo per ton at all. Oh ya and machine guns technically got no ammo increase per ton either even though their damage is so low to begin with.

Edited by Boogie Man, 03 June 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Boogie Man, on 03 June 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

Also UAC5 having 5 less shots than AC5 makes no sense. In TT they have the same ammo per ton. They also never increased SRM/SSRM ammo per ton at all. Oh ya and machine guns technically got no ammo increase per ton either even though their damage is so low to begin with.

That and only that is the only reason i will accept. 5shots more for the UAC... you don't have random hit locations why do you need double ammo for double armor. do you hit the arms when you are aiming for the center?
do you hit the left arm when you are aiming for the right leg?
No you don't so you don't need double ammunition -

Joseph Mallan, on 03 June 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

You only have to much ammo if you die with bins loaded. Otherwise, don't tell me how to arm my Mech.

Deep in my heart i'm a Steiner trader - and yes you are right... my bins are almost empty when dead comes and seek for me...

[OneEyed Jack]

Boogie Man, on 03 June 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

They really do need to do double ammo instead of the current 1.5x ammo. When we have 12v12 the problem will be even worse because if you lose a few people early that is going to mean ammo based weapons are going to have to stretch out their limited damage potential even more than they do now.

Also UAC5 having 5 less shots than AC5 makes no sense. In TT they have the same ammo per ton. They also never increased SRM/SSRM ammo per ton at all. Oh ya and machine guns technically got no ammo increase per ton either even though their damage is so low to begin with.

In TT, UAC didn't also fire faster than normal AC without double-tapping. Disadvantages vs advantages is called "balancing." (Note that I'm not suggesting balance is perfect).

I don't think there will be a big issue with 12v12. Each side will have more mechs that will need killing, but each side will have more guns to do that killing, so it should remain fairly close to the same, although there will be less instances of one mech carrying the team in kills. It may be a very minor issue with purely ammo-dependent mechs, but that will just be a factor is mech/build choice. Not that I'd complain if they boosted ammo a wee bit.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 03 June 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[Kaldor]

OneEyed Jack, on 03 June 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

In TT, UAC didn't also fire faster than normal AC without double-tapping. Disadvantages vs advantages is called "balancing." (Note that I'm not suggesting balance is perfect).

I don't think there will be a big issue with 12v12. Each side will have more mechs that will need killing, but each side will have more guns to do that killing, so it should remain fairly close to the same, although there will be less instances of one mech carrying the team in kills. It may be a very minor issue with purely ammo-dependent mechs, but that will just be a factor is mech/build choice. Not that I'd complain if they boosted ammo a wee bit.

I think its going to be a bigger issue than most people think. Right now ballistic weapons are behind the curve to energy weapons. Yes, people still run them and they are effective, but in 12v12 energy weapons are going to be more desirable as the match draws to a close. I run my Ilya (3 UAC5) or Phract 4X (4 AC5), and at the end of a match, 8v8, if I did my job I should be getting the 25% ammo warning. I know my buddies that run heavy ballistic build Cats or Jagers are in the same boat.

Look at the current dynamic as an example. PPCs are great, no ammo, OK heat, good range. They trump an AC10 in every way just because of this. The gauss in comparison is closer but it is heavier, and less ammo per ton than an AC10. AC20 is better than both at short range, but is only effective at 450m or less. The ML and LL are both more effective as well, no ammo, only need heatsinks. ERPPCs are a different animal, but are more effective I feel as well, even though they run hot. Lots of variables go into this, but overall I feel the result is always about the same, energy weapons are better than ballistics.

Double the ammo counts from canon is good. It doesnt break anything. Opens up some flexibility. Do it.

Edited by Kaldor, 03 June 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[Boogie Man]

OneEyed Jack, on 03 June 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

In TT, UAC didn't also fire faster than normal AC without double-tapping. Disadvantages vs advantages is called "balancing." (Note that I'm not suggesting balance is perfect).

See I am fine with either slowing UAC5 down to AC5 speed or speeding AC5 up to UAC5 speed as long as they have the same ammo count per ton. Personally I think they should have the same base fire rate and the only difference is UAC5 can double tap and AC5 can't.

[Yanlowen Cage]

does your AC40 jager run out of ammo too quickly?

[Karl Streiger]

Yanlowen Cage, on 03 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

does your AC40 jager run out of ammo too quickly?

Maybe they have only enough ammunition on board to kill 5 targets...so the devs have to increase that they can carry enough ammunition to kill 12 mechs...single handed... nobody need a team...

[Zypher]

Ralgas, on 03 June 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

depends on what sort of builds you're trying to do. It and the weight is the trade off you get for being able to sustain fire long after the laser boats are shutdown.......

that and usually people are trying to cram 3 or more on a heavy mech. There's a reason behind it!! That said 12v12 is going to make it tough on the gunboats.........

All things being equal it won't be any different except in the lopsided games. Mechs can still only take so much damage, for every extra mech in game there will be an opposing mech to fire on it.

By the time you run out of ammo there shouldn't be much left to fire at...again assuming everything is equal. So until weight balancing / MM gets fixed, yes, ammo could be problem if it's 12 lights vs 12 assaults, overall, it's the least of PGIs worries.

[BlackIronTarkus]

I managed to make my builds work with the current 8vs8... but its close. So yeah when there is 12vs12 I will too often be ammo dry while infinite ammo PPC can fire at will when I cannot.

[Karl Streiger]

BlackIronTarkus, on 03 June 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I managed to make my builds work with the current 8vs8... but its close. So yeah when there is 12vs12 I will too often be ammo dry while infinite ammo PPC can fire at will when I cannot.

Hm what about using PPC AND AC together?

[Boogie Man]

Karl Streiger, on 03 June 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Hm what about using PPC AND AC together?

Because not everyone is walking around in assault mechs and ppc and ac are both very heavy weapons.