38 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

This is a different argument/discussion from a different thread:
http://mwomercs.com/...3-basic-heroes/

I think some people like the idea that all mechs should be accessible somehow. However, it is recognized that PGI needs to make money AND that players that bought their Hero mechs would be shafted by this idea. So, I believe compromises can be made to benefit both parties.

Hero mechs would be available for C-bills, with certain restrictions. It would not have the camo, nor the c-bill bonus. Only the basics can be acquired/mastered. The only way to "unlock" the higher level bonuses is to actually pay up. It's really that simple.

Now doing/allowing this should accomplish the following things:

1) More hero visibility. When you see more people with those mechs on the field, it would incentivize sales. It's not complicated to see this.

2) Provide access to hero mechs to everyone. There would be no silly P2W arguments that come up... you should be able to function with the basics mastered (in fact, you should be able to function as such, when you spend a lot of time grinding them in other non-hero mechs).

I've also come up with a basic idea on how to provide hero mech accessibility in the game.

There is no practical purpose at this time to master variants/chassis outside of getting the module slot. I propose that if you were to master all 3 variants of the same chassis, you get the ability to purchase the hero mech with c-bills. For instance, if you master all 3 dragons, you can buy the Flame and Fang with C-bills.

This would accomplish the following things:

1) You cannot buy the hero mech immediately. This would prevent people from buying it with c-bills initially, hoping to master it w/o paying, which causes all sorts of problems in terms of the whole 3 variant mastery system.

2) This should be the "reward" for taking the time to grind out all 3 mechs... even though you do not get full functionality, any sort of benefit to the strictly F2P player is a good thing, and may occasionally reward PGI buy actually buying it.

Anything that rewards both the player and PGI is a win-win for everyone. My primary concern is accessibility and providing a mechanism to acquire them WHILE keeping the incentive to purchase the mech is still there. I'm sure people will have other ideas and I wish to hear alternative options the satisfy both conditions (paying PGI, and giving players the option to use hero mechs).

Edited by Deathlike, 07 June 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[ExtremeA79]

One word.
No.

[Adrienne Vorton]

the whole point of heromechs is the uniqueness that you pay your hard earned money for... nuff said... ppl should consider them selves lucky that they can play games for free nowadays, but not everything is free in life you know?

[Deathlike]

Darren Tyler, on 07 June 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

One word.
No.

Please state why.

Also, I forgot the argument about "trying before you buy". This would be an opportunity to try the mech before you actually buy it. It doesn't make sense to just blindly buy something having not tried it. Sure, you may have tried the other variants and they may be similar, but there are even basic mechs with variants that are vastly different from each other (like the BJs or Ravens) that you need to see for yourself before you try them. It would not make sense to have those "Trial by Fire" sales that PGI routinely has if you haven't played in the Trial Mechs.

[Blair]

This would drastically reduce the number of people who purchase Hero 'Mechs, which would negatively impact the development of the game. MWO is not a charity, and there are some things that will need to be premium to keep the game financially viable; Hero 'Mechs are an obvious revenue generator.

[Pater Mors]

I don't think this is a good idea.

Firstly let me say that I own no Hero's so I have no vested interests in protecting their current form.

My reasons are as follows:

• PGI must maintain a sound revenue stream to continue development of this game. If the above system stops even one person purchasing a Hero with MC it is not a good system to implement. This will happen with the 3x Mastered rule.
  
• While I do believe Hero Mech's are over priced, if you can afford all the things necessary to play this game (computer, internet, a house and rent) chances are you can afford to splash out on some MC once in a while if you really want that Hero.
  
• None of the Hero chassis are even close to being P2W and all arguments I've seen (mostly from Thomas's thread lately) have been debunked over and over.
  
• There are more than enough free chassis to play with and many, many more will be included over the life of MWO (but not if PGI's revenue streams are impinged upon).
  
• There are really no valid reasons why people need to have access to a Hero if they're not willing to pay other than the fact that they feel like they should be able to, which is not good enough IMO.
  
• It screws over people who have already paid full price for a Hero. Imagine if they released Founders chassis? Unless they are willing to refund everyone who wants a refund then it's impractical and unfair to change the system now.

To address some of your points:

Deathlike, on 07 June 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

1) More hero visibility. When you see more people with those mechs on the field, it would incentivize sales. It's not complicated to see this.

I disagree. If they are stock Hero's without the paint etc then how will people know if they are Hero's without specifically looking?

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2) Provide access to hero mechs to everyone. There would be no silly P2W arguments that come up... you should be able to function with the basics mastered (in fact, you should be able to function as such, when you spend a lot of time grinding them in other non-hero mechs).

There is no P2W involved now. I am yet to see a valid argument on P2W in this game since the Coolant consumable was changed. That was the only thing that was even close to being P2W in MWO.

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There is no practical purpose at this time to master variants/chassis outside of getting the module slot. I propose that if you were to master all 3 variants of the same chassis, you get the ability to purchase the hero mwech with c-bills. For instance, if you master all 3 dragons, you can buy the Flame and Fang with C-bills.

This would accomplish the following things:

1) You cannot buy the hero mech immediately. This would prevent people from buying it with c-bills initially, hoping to master it w/o paying, which causes all sorts of problems in terms of the whole 3 variant mastery system.

2) This should be the "reward" for taking the time to grind out all 3 mechs... even though you do not get full functionality, any sort of benefit to the strictly F2P player is a good thing, and may occasionally reward PGI buy actually buying it.

This directly contradicts point one (incentivizing sales) and will make PGI take a massive hit to revenue. I can tell you right now that if I could access Hero Mech's simply by grinding up 3 chassis then I would never spent a cent on a Hero Mech, ever, regardless of needing to unlock efficiencies/c-bill bonus.

Edited by Pater Mors, 07 June 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

again: Hero Mechs are premium content, and not even a particularly strong one... be happy it´s not maps and gamemodes you have to pay in cash for

you wanna drive mechs? fine do it. you wanna customize them? switch weapons and stuff? fine, you also can do that... for free

you want something special not everyone has? you gotta pay for it...simple as that

[Ronan]

I signed in just to vote no. Hero mechs are premium content, as has already been stated. Premium content costs real-world money.

[Deathlike]

Pater Mors, on 07 June 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

• PGI must maintain a sound revenue stream to continue development of this game. If the above system stops even one person purchasing a Hero with MC it is not a good system to implement. This will happen with the 3x Mastered rule.

As I've suggested, I've put other suggested restrictions, like not being able to go past basic efficiencies when you buy a "c-bills version" of a hero mech.

The only time this issue similarly existed when the Heavy Metal debuted before the Highlander. Yes, everyone got access to it early, but the P2W arguments were silly, especially when they are restricted significantly with only basics mastered. The same would be applied here. Hero mechs w/o mastery is still a mediocre mech at best.

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• None of the Hero chassis are even close to being P2W and all arguments I've seen (mostly from Thomas's thread lately) have been debunked over and over.

The closest arguments ever are about the some of the non-hero mechs being worse than any hero mech. See Dragon-5N vs any of the hero Dragons. Of course, the argument changes as soon as more variants are released (which, I have no idea when they'll actually do that).

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• There are more than enough free chassis to play with and many, many more will be included over the life of MWO (but not if PGI's revenue streams are impinged upon).

Sure, at this point, MOST hero mechs have a decent free option. Initially that probably wasn't the case (I think Ilya was referenced a lot before the Jagermech existed). I'm still somewhat concerned with certain mechs that have only 3 variants as a 4th variant would go a long way to absolving those issues. This is also why the Cicada-3C is inferior by far.

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• There are really no valid reasons why people need to have access to a Hero if they're not willing to pay other than the fact that they feel like they should be able to, which is not good enough IMO.

I like options, but I personally don't like many of the hero mechs. The only mechs that would even interest me happen to ironically appear with this current sale. There's no need by any stretch of the imagination. I like more and better options. Some mechs do not provide that unfortunately due to balance issues.

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• It screws over people who have already paid full price for a Hero. Imagine if they released Founders chassis? Unless they are willing to refund everyone who wants a refund then it's impractical and unfair to change the system now.

The Founders chassis is strictly a c-bills/camo bonus. Outside of those that have the prestige to have founded the game, there is actually no significant difference between them and the regular version. Same could be said for the Champion mechs. Hero mechs are actually different.

Strangely enough, they actually got the hero mech balance correct. This, I will give them credit for.

[Zerberus]

NO.

1. It permamently devalues what is (I assume) one of the primary revenue streams. This means less money for PGI = slower game development and /or less overall features.

2. Slap in the face to everyone who has bought one unless they get refunds, which is not going to happoen.

3. There is absolutely NO viable reason to make Premium content available for free to everyone wh has too much time on their hands. "I don`t want to pay for it" is NOT a viable reason.

These mechs are designed to provide uniqueness and convenience to people hat pay real money and by doing so keep the game that you and others enjoy for free alive. Without their sales, the game will likely die rather quickly because PGI probably cant survive off of mech bays and camo sales alone.

This is likely the worst mimimi-powered idea ever.

Edited by Zerberus, 07 June 2013 - 01:40 PM.

[Deathlike]

Zerberus, on 07 June 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

NO.

1. It permamently devalues what is (I assume) one of the primary revenue streams. This means less money for PGI = slower game development and /or less overall features.

2. Slap in the face to everyone who has bought one unless they get refunds, which is not going to happoen.

3. There is absolutely NO viable reason to make Premium content available for free to everyone wh has too much time on their hands. "I don`t want to pay for it" is NOT a viable reason.

For the sake of argument, what would be acceptable to allow the use of a hero mech that does NOT infringe of the paying customer? No basic efficiencies? A complete trial mech (like, literally, you cannot configure it, use as is)?

Edited by Deathlike, 07 June 2013 - 01:40 PM.

[Zerberus]

Deathlike, on 07 June 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

For the sake of argument, what would be acceptable to allow the use of a hero mech that does NOT infringe of the paying customer? No basic efficiencies? A complete trial mech (like, literally, you cannot configure it, use as is)?

Acceptable? Not offering it for free at all.

You pay money for:;the unique camo, the c-bill bonus, and the unique hardpoint layout.

Take just one of those away, and you have 30% less reason to buy one = 30% less income.

Why should I buy a custom Ferrari with a specially designed engine, suspension and airbrush paintjob if next week every Tom {Richard Cameron} and Harry can just drive a standard gto for 2 days and get the same thing sans paint for free?

You want hero mech X? Then purchase Hero mech X. Asking for PGI to play Santa Claus in this manner is just another prime example of (no direct insult intended) how entitled and short sighted most members of this community have become. Our motto appears to have become "I want Everything for free, no matter what the cost."

And for the record, I own exactly 0 hero mechs, Sarahs Jenner will be my first and most likely last, and not because of any special hardpoints or bonuses. but if it were offered for free to everybody that cries loud enough or plays jenners for 24h, I woul be very royally pissed off, and would charge back the MC on my CC, even if it meant enduring a CC-Fraud lawsuit. The rationale being that I was defrauded first by false claims and was not delivered the exclusive product I was led to believe. Any I would never play MWO ever again, or any other game from the same publisher, such as for example another BT game in which I am a Legendary Founder.

And I am 100% certain that I am not alone in this stance, but that a large portion of the paying community have a similar view.

Again, great way to kill the game by giving in to mimimi.

I have no issues with offering them at a reduced price after a certain time period, or a one time 30% off sale, or similar. But in any way, shape or form free is just a huge middle finger to the entire paying sector of the community.

And without us, the game WILL die. Fast. and with it the MW concept for PC games will most likely also die it`s last death, the one everyone thought it died ten years ago and is so happy to have been wrong about.

If there`s one prime directive in the business of F2P games, it is to never, ever screw your paying customers to benefit those that are paying nothing. I think I`ve laid out most of the reasons why pretty clearly.

Edited by Zerberus, 07 June 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[Deathlike]

Zerberus, on 07 June 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Acceptable? Not offering it for free at all.

You pay money for:;the unique camo, the c-bill bonus, and the unique hardpoint layout.

Take just one of those away, and you have 30% less reason to buy one = 30% less income.

Why should I buy a custom Ferrari with a specially designed engine, suspension and airbrush paintjob if next week every Tom {Richard Cameron} and Harry can just drive a standard gto for 2 days and get the same thing sans paint for free?

That's not even close to what I'm suggesting!

Here's an analogy and is what happens in the real world. Say you're selling yogurt and you want people to buy it. So, what you do is offer a free cup to everyone that wants to try it. If they like it, they can go buy it at their supermarket. Occasionally, coupons are offered to buy it.

The same idea happens here. Instead of giving for COMPLETE ACCESS to a mech, you provide the opportunity to use it for free with major limitations (even if it were just making it a strict trial hero mech). How is that devaluing the hero mech?

[Adrienne Vorton]

Deathlike, on 07 June 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

what would be acceptable to allow the use of a hero mech

buying one

and before someone plays the "wallet warrior" card: no, i´m not rich, in fact i count towards the "poverty level" ... but if i feel the urge that i JUST HAVE TO HAVE THAT HERO MECH!!!!... i´ll buy it, because that´s how the buisness model here works...

Deathlike, on 07 June 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

That's not even close to what I'm suggesting!

Here's an analogy and is what happens in the real world. Say you're selling yogurt and you want people to buy it. So, what you do is offer a free cup to everyone that wants to try it. If they like it, they can go buy it at their supermarket. Occasionally, coupons are offered to buy it.

The same idea happens here. Instead of giving for COMPLETE ACCESS to a mech, you provide the opportunity to use it for free with major limitations (even if it were just making it a strict trial hero mech). How is that devaluing the hero mech?

lol, you have like 40 free cups of yoghurt currently, and there will be way more (best of it: you don´t even have to pay a dime to get the free cups...)

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 07 June 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Oppresor]

You're absolutely right Adrienne; Hero's are premium content and are things to aspire to. I don't currently have a Hero unit because I don't buy MC and didn't join the Founders Programme, I therefore accept that I am not entitled to a Hero.

This would change if they were to introduce the Omega and make it a Hero only unit; I would be willing to pay a lot of MC for one of those.

[Deathlike]

Adrienne Vorton, on 07 June 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

lol, you have like 40 free cups of yoghurt currently, and there will be way more (best of it: you don´t even have to pay a dime to get the free cups...)

To some degree, I think that version is starting become tasteless and needs new flavors (like, new game modes, but that's a different discussion).

That's not the point, but I guess I can't convince anyone of it. I tried.

[Pater Mors]

Deathlike, on 07 June 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

As I've suggested, I've put other suggested restrictions, like not being able to go past basic efficiencies when you buy a "c-bills version" of a hero mech.

The only time this issue similarly existed when the Heavy Metal debuted before the Highlander. Yes, everyone got access to it early, but the P2W arguments were silly, especially when they are restricted significantly with only basics mastered. The same would be applied here. Hero mechs w/o mastery is still a mediocre mech at best.

That doesn't change the fact that if I could access a Hero for 'free' I'd never in a million years pay to unlock efficiencies/c-bill bonus. Straight away this model has lost a real money sale.

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The closest arguments ever are about the some of the non-hero mechs being worse than any hero mech. See Dragon-5N vs any of the hero Dragons. Of course, the argument changes as soon as more variants are released (which, I have no idea when they'll actually do that).

Those arguments aren't even close. People on this forum fundamentally misunderstand what P2W is. When they release a Daichi packed to the brim with clan weaponry for MC only (in the games current state) then I will agree. Stats on paper mean nothing and I am 100% certain there are people out there who love the 5N and wouldn't trade it for a Flame if offered.

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Sure, at this point, MOST hero mechs have a decent free option. Initially that probably wasn't the case (I think Ilya was referenced a lot before the Jagermech existed). I'm still somewhat concerned with certain mechs that have only 3 variants as a 4th variant would go a long way to absolving those issues. This is also why the Cicada-3C is inferior by far.

I'd argue that all heros have a decent free option.

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I like options, but I personally don't like many of the hero mechs. The only mechs that would even interest me happen to ironically appear with this current sale. There's no need by any stretch of the imagination. I like more and better options. Some mechs do not provide that unfortunately due to balance issues.

You have the option to buy.

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The Founders chassis is strictly a c-bills/camo bonus. Outside of those that have the prestige to have founded the game, there is actually no significant difference between them and the regular version. Same could be said for the Champion mechs. Hero mechs are actually different.

That's right, they are actually different and people who are willing to support the game with real money deserve to get something different that no free player can have. It's really that simple. As long as the Hero's do not confer a significant tactical advantage to anyone who buys it (subjective personal player skill not involved) then they should remain Premium content.

Zerberus, on 07 June 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Acceptable? Not offering it for free at all.

This.

[JDH4mm3r]

While we're at it, might as well do the same for mech bays.... within restriction of course. That way, those who cannot afford to expand their mechs can do so within reason.

[ValdnadHartagga]

What I think would be great, though, is to occasionally include Hero 'Mechs in the Trial rotations. Maybe add every new Hero to the Trial rotation so players can truly try before they buy. It would also be neat to have special promotions where all the Trial 'Mechs in a rotation are Heroes.

[Dirus Nigh]

I am in agrement with just about every thing the above posters stated arguing against the OP's idea.

I payed for my founder package. If they gave you Deathlike, and other players who did not buy it, every thing that I got out of the deal tomarrow I would be royally pissed off. I would send several emails demanding my money back. Then never touch a IGP/PGI game again.

There are reasons why I deleted every EA game I ever bought and refuse to ever buy one again. This is just one of them. EA's Battlefield free to play took away payed for content, changed it, and demanded that I buy more stuff in order to recreate what I originally bought. I never played the game again. They lost a paying costumer.

Perfect World did the same thing, but worse, with Champoins Online. I bought the game when it first came out originally as a monthly subscription game. It cost about $50 dollers. I then played and payed the monthly fee untill right before it went F2P. I shut down the payments because I could not afford it any more. Six months later I hear it had some updates. I go back reinstalled the game activated my old acount and tryed to use my old characters.

The game locked out my old characters and demanded that I pay to have them upgraded to "gold" status in order to use them. CO changed how character creation works and locked out a lot of stuff for real money. I made those characters when I spent money on the original purchase of the game and at least a year of monthly subscription fees. Perfect World wanted me to pay money to use content I already payed for. I uninstalled the game.

Deathlike You want PGI to do this. NO.

Also under your idea of grinding for free hero mechs, how does Sara Jenner get money to the charity?

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 08 July 2013 - 03:22 PM.