73 replies to this topic

[Steel your Life]

Seriously Flamers are so badly designed so completely useless and this is still going on after they have been given developer attention multiple times?

I feel that the flamers are just an ingame symbol to show just how incompetent your design team is capable of being.

what am i talking about?

Flamers overheat the person using them faster then they overheat the guy your using them on.
That fact aside even if you have 3 or 4 of them they dont overheat an enemy mech to the 90% cap quickly, moderately or even slowly they dont do anything at all worth having them equipped.

the reason for this post belive it or not is not to just ridicule the design team but to try and find out what possible reason there could be for failing so horribly on flamers.

Do you game test changes before you put them in updates?

Do you have trouble with basic calculations of heat per second when programming the changes into your functions?

Was it your intention to make the only weapon in the game able to overheat another mech completely useless because you dont like that game mechanic but wanted to follow tabletop?

Edited by Steel your Life, 13 June 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Steel your Life, on 13 June 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Flamers overheat the person using them faster then they overheat the guy your using them on.

FALSE

Half True

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2450088

Edited by hammerreborn, 16 June 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[Jasen]

They are pretty usless... just like LBX, just like MG, just like small lasers, just like AC2s, etc..

lets not forget all pulses and srms (currently for SRMs)

Edited by Jasen, 13 June 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[ExtremeA79]

hammerreborn, on 13 June 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

FALSE

Proof pl0x

[tenderloving]

Darren Tyler, on 13 June 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Proof pl0x

I have no stance on this, but the guy making the original claim has the burden of proof.

[Gorgarath]

hammerreborn, on 13 June 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

FALSE

no your wrong this has been tested in many other posts and by me personaly flamers will overheat you faster than the enemy so your FALSE!!!

[General Taskeen]

They should have simply made them a burst flame weapon with a cooldown.

2 Damage
3 Heat
5 Heat Transfer

*Insert CD number. Boom, done.

[Shumabot]

hammerreborn, on 13 June 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

FALSE

No, it's certainly not false. The ratio of self heat to heat given to the opponent is actually kinda ridiculous, but the weapon itself is an impossible unbalanceable terrible idea so the things never going to be good.

[Gorgarath]

tenderloving, on 13 June 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

I have no stance on this, but the guy making the original claim has the burden of proof.

really who cares does it matter? it is true flamers overheat the person using them faster than the enemy they are being used on but the sad reality is even if you dont belive this to be true flamers still suck...

[Unbound Inferno]

The only real complaint I have on MWO Flamers vs BT is that its damage is too high and its range is too short. Its intended to overheat the target not really cause damage.

In BT the Flamer matches the range of the Small Laser, but its damage is less

Flamer
3 Heat
2 Damage
1-3 Range
1 Ton IS
0.5 Ton Clan

Small Laser
1 Heat
3 Damage
1-3 Range
0.5 Ton

The current damage spread of it is fine, but the value of it needs to be less and the range ought to be up from 64m. I would say a max range of 120m on the Flamer, with 0.2 damage - the self heat needs to be reduced to 0.3 with the target receiving a total 0.5 heat. That is calculated on a relative reduction similar to original MG damage.

[Shumabot]

General Taskeen, on 13 June 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

They should have simply made them a burst flame weapon with a cooldown.

2 Damage
3 Heat
5 Heat Transfer

*Insert CD number. Boom, done.

They should weigh 6 tons and actually have the ability to force people into shutdown and eventually overheat based explosions. They should never have been a 1 ton debuff weapon that's ludicrously easy to boat forcing them to underpower the weapon severely, thus making it totally worthless unless boated. The Flamer is the perfect example of how this game adheres way to closely to the tabletop, it's a totally dysfunctional weapon and can not be made useful or balanced.

[Chavette]

hammerreborn, on 13 June 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

FALSE

Double FALSE!

#BACKHAND BONUS

#ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED

[Homeless Bill]

Tell us oh wise master of balance, what are the magic numbers? How do we make flamers useful without turning them into a stun-lock? All I see so far is a lot of bitching with no solution.

[Shumabot]

Unbound Inferno, on 13 June 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

The only real complaint I have on MWO Flamers vs BT is that its damage is too high and its range is too short. Its intended to overheat the target not really cause damage.

In BT the Flamer matches the range of the Small Laser, but its damage is less

Flamer
3 Heat
2 Damage
1-3 Range
1 Ton IS
0.5 Ton Clan

Small Laser
1 Heat
3 Damage
1-3 Range
0.5 Ton

The current damage spread of it is fine, but the value of it needs to be less and the range ought to be up from 64m. I would say a max range of 120m on the Flamer, with 0.2 damage - the self heat needs to be reduced to 0.3 with the target receiving a total 0.5 heat. That is calculated on a relative reduction similar to original MG damage.

With those numbers you'd still never see it used. Just like the small laser...

Homeless Bill, on 13 June 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Tell us oh wise master of balance, what are the magic numbers? How do we make flamers useful without turning them into a stun-lock? All I see so far is a lot of bitching with no solution.

Let them be a stunlock. It's a gun that requires that you overheat yourself, do almost no damage, and facehug something that is probably in the process of killing you while its friends ALSO are killing you. Pretending that a stunlock would somehow be overpowered is stupid, you know what's better than a stunlock? Killing your opponent, it's a stunlock that lasts forever, the least you could do is make the high risk, high investment temporary stunlock able to be materially useful in some fashion.

[Unbound Inferno]

Shumabot, on 13 June 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

With those numbers you'd still never see it used. Just like the small laser...

That's the dynamics of the game. If you want to argue about it matching TT rules that's where it lands. Its worse than a Small Laser in damage and the only point is to increase heat on the target or cause fires. Fun world effects we don't see yet is area fire damage which could add up to being useful. However that's it - its not intended nor would it ever be used on most mechs.

[General Taskeen]

Hmm, well let's see MW3 and MW:LL made the SL decent -> They increased the small range, less heat.

MW3 made the Flamer decent, with close matched stats of the TT Flamer, it did damage, it transferred heat, it had a cool down, BUT there was no heat CAP so it stunned or instantly destroy a Mech if loading up on 9 flamers. Transfer the MW3 Flamer concept to MWO so that it can not stun lock an opponent, and there you have it, a useful flamer, so even if you're not making the enemy blow up from overheating, you're still doing damage. Bonus? Make the flamer light environment on fire heating up the AMBIENCE of said environment if walked through.

MW3 Flamer

120m
2.5 Heat Per Shot
Damage + 5 Heat Transfer (the transfer of heat is instant)
1s CD

Edited by General Taskeen, 13 June 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Homeless Bill, on 13 June 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Tell us oh wise master of balance, what are the magic numbers? How do we make flamers useful without turning them into a stun-lock? All I see so far is a lot of bitching with no solution.

Ask and you shall receive

1. Flamer fires one burst of flame (instead of conitnuous fire) on 10s cooldown.
2. Each shot (burst) bumps the heat of the target by 40 (100% of scale with 10 default heatsinks) and shooter's heat by 10.
3. Destruction of the flamer bumps carrier's heat by 60 (150% of scale with 10 default heatsinks).

Any objections?

[Ningyo]

Actually flamers would be very simple to balance. There are a few routes.

Make it a very short range AoE weapon (have it deal low damage but to every part of a mech it hits) this makes it useful for sandpapering mechs, and with even mild heat transfer (the up to 90%) it could be used as a niche weapon on some lights.

OR

Add in heat penalties below shutdown level (like in Battletech)
things like reduced movement speed, slower turning
Then you can still prevent people from making it a stunlock weapon (which I don't see as a huge problem since original heat values would require you to have about 8 flamers focused on a mech to do so), but let it give useful heat penalties.

OR

You can raise its range and damage and make it a usable direct fire weapon.

OR

you can institute destructible terrain and make it good at burnign things.



see came up with 4 off the top of my head.

[Steel your Life]

Homeless Bill, on 13 June 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Tell us oh wise master of balance, what are the magic numbers? How do we make flamers useful without turning them into a stun-lock? All I see so far is a lot of bitching with no solution.

ok ill bite

you make flamers have fuel the fuel refills slowly drawing reserves from your engine. However you make the heat from the flamer last longer on the enemy so say you use your flame to heat the enemy up and now the enemy is at 50% heat well you stop using your flame becasue it runs out of fuel and is overheating you. So you must stop and run away to recharge or use a diff weapon group for a while. The enemy while no longer being heated his mech remains with a cool down penalty aplied to even though he is no longer being affected by a dirrect flamer. So think of it as a flamer weapon casting a debuff on you or a curse that makes you lose considerable cool down ability for a decent amount of time 5-15 seconds depending on how long the flamer put his flames on you and how many flames were on you (a stacking debuff system).

Edited by Steel your Life, 13 June 2013 - 01:20 PM.

[Deathlike]

The flamer damage buff is interesting. If I could only bring up smurfy's...

IIRC, the flamer better resembles a more useful "weapon", but not as a heat generator.

Small Laser
.5 tons/1 crit
3 damage, 2 heat
2.25 sec cooldown, .75 sec duration

Flamer
1 ton/1 crit
.7 damage (in next patch), 1 heat
"no cooldown"

Small Pulse Laser
1 ton/1 crit
3.4 damage (in next patch), 2.4 heat (in next patch)
2.25 sec cooldown, .50 sec duration

If you were to project the flamer over 3 seconds...
2.1 damage
3 heat

This on paper looks OK, but it could be better. The small pulse laser buff makes it break away from the flamer's buff, but remember that the flamer's range is limited, so... the flamer damage buff is welcomed, but it is not even close to the small pulse laser (which still won't be great compared to a medium laser).

Edit:
He's a sad additional fact. The flamer would still do more damage than the MG, due to the MG's ROF (which isn't exactly 10 bullets/sec) and spread (which would not be concentrated). This even factors the buff that the MGs are getting.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 June 2013 - 01:25 PM.