Here is my idea on how to help the game play while at the same time allowing players to bring whatever weapons they want while also at the same time not changing heat values. I propose putting a .5 second limit on the number of weapons of a certain type that can be fired at once. There is even some lore that supports this ruling apparently, but im not 100% sure.
For example, if you limit the amount of gausses or ac/20s you can fire at once to 1. This will cause an ac20/gauss jeager to have to wait .5 seconds before they can fire their second ac20/gauss shell.
It can be expanded on to work out quite nicely if you increase the limit of weapons you can fire at once, as you move to weaker weapons. So as you get to ppcs you can fire 2 at a time. This will help keep the catapult k2 stock mech just as powerful as it is now. Then large lasers can be shot 3 at a time. No stock variant to my knowledge even runs 3 larges anyway so this shouldn't be a problem with lore/game play. Then finally limit the amount of medium lasers that can be fired to 6 so the hunchback-4p can fire its laser pod and the blackjack-1x can still its arm lasers all at once.
Here is the kicker that makes it all work really well. You allow people to fire any amount of weapons less than the actual full limit without problem. I will use a stock atlas-k for this example. It has an ac/20 and 2 er large lasers. Firing the gauss rifle would start the .5 second timer, however since it is only firing 2 large lasers instead of 3 it doesnt have to wait for this .5 second timer and can do a full alpha strike with both weapons at the exact same time.
This change would make the entire meta game play be much more close combat action based as most mechs can manage the 48 damage of 2 ppc, 2 large lasers, and 2 medium lasers that the biggest fire support mech in the game, the stalker, could easily hold and fire all at once even with these restrictions. Compare that to the 60 damage of 6 ppcs that in turn make the stalker have a huge weakness to the benefits of the more reliable mix and match build stalker that can still high alpha. What players do with the rest of a mechs hard points is what makes their mech have that personal touch. So that stalker with 2ppc 2LL and 2med could also hold 4 srm6, or 4 streak srm2, or some combination of lrm/srm weapons depending on its pilots taste.
The only stock mechs that would be hurt by this limitation are the awesome-9M and the awesome-8Q as they comes stock with 3 ppcs at a time. So of course the only logical thing to do then is to let the awesome fire 3 ppcs at a time instead of 2 making it freaking awesome.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...713654bb6c46022
I propose no changes to lrm/srm as they are close to fine where they are.
I would love to see this game change from the peek-a-boo style it is now, to a more violent full on mech combat where teamwork and strategy are the keys to victory.
3
How To Fix The High Alpha Problem With The Meta Gameplay
Started by jollyrancher1, Jun 18 2013 12:48 PM
44 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:34 PM
Teamwork and strategy are the keys NOW. The key is not to rush in alone anywhere, never be in a "fair fight," and never fight other mechs alone.
An AC20 Jag is pretty terrifying until you hit him with four mechs. He might still seriously damage someone, but you will definitely kill him.
The game doesn't need limits on alpha, it needs more reasons to take a long range or efficient build. All the maps have clear, easy ways to avoid long range fights. All the maps have simple paths that funnel people into short range maulings where people try to beat each other to death with bricks. The game needs maps where this isn't the rule. The game needs a meta where ammunition might become limited throughout the day as your faction does poorly. The game needs a meta where repair costs increase for certain items based on rarity and how often you lose them.
The game does not need hard limits on how fast you can shoot weapon groups, or punishing weapons with phantom heat. I hate fighting 6-PPC-Stalkers. I hate fighting AC40 mechs. I hated fighting Splatcats when they weren't terrible. I hate fighting LRM boats. I like running a build closer to efficient, but I generally run the same way you run in tabletop - hotter is better because more heat means more guns. This isn't a boss fight centric MMO. DPS is meaningless if your numbers are too low to breach someone in short order. That is why the machine gun is still worthless. What matters more is how much you can pump out and how long it takes to hit.
I don't run any of the power builds listed above, but I fully expect many of my builds will be unfairly penalized by the new rules. The new rules seem focused on "stock" mech loadouts for the number of weapons that can fire at once, and almost no one runs anything like stock mechs. My K2 is OFTEN in an X-Wing config with either four large or four PPC. With the new rules, I expect I will only be able to fire two at a time. If they go by a really strict version of "stock" for that mech, any two cannons other than machine guns will generate phantom heat, anything more than two PPC, and anything more than 2 energy at a time. In other words, there is no way to use all the hardpoints and have anything like burst damage without sucking wind.
The game doesn't need artifical damage speedbumps. It needs to force players to stop bursting and start coordinating. People burst because damage over time often loses to coordinated burst fire, and there is no meta. There is literally one game mode right now - kill everyone. Even in Conquest, you auto win if the other team is dead. You ca always kill-win reliably unless some of the enemy are in lights and play smart.
This game has gone about as far as it can without Community Warfare, and it's starting to show.
An AC20 Jag is pretty terrifying until you hit him with four mechs. He might still seriously damage someone, but you will definitely kill him.
The game doesn't need limits on alpha, it needs more reasons to take a long range or efficient build. All the maps have clear, easy ways to avoid long range fights. All the maps have simple paths that funnel people into short range maulings where people try to beat each other to death with bricks. The game needs maps where this isn't the rule. The game needs a meta where ammunition might become limited throughout the day as your faction does poorly. The game needs a meta where repair costs increase for certain items based on rarity and how often you lose them.
The game does not need hard limits on how fast you can shoot weapon groups, or punishing weapons with phantom heat. I hate fighting 6-PPC-Stalkers. I hate fighting AC40 mechs. I hated fighting Splatcats when they weren't terrible. I hate fighting LRM boats. I like running a build closer to efficient, but I generally run the same way you run in tabletop - hotter is better because more heat means more guns. This isn't a boss fight centric MMO. DPS is meaningless if your numbers are too low to breach someone in short order. That is why the machine gun is still worthless. What matters more is how much you can pump out and how long it takes to hit.
I don't run any of the power builds listed above, but I fully expect many of my builds will be unfairly penalized by the new rules. The new rules seem focused on "stock" mech loadouts for the number of weapons that can fire at once, and almost no one runs anything like stock mechs. My K2 is OFTEN in an X-Wing config with either four large or four PPC. With the new rules, I expect I will only be able to fire two at a time. If they go by a really strict version of "stock" for that mech, any two cannons other than machine guns will generate phantom heat, anything more than two PPC, and anything more than 2 energy at a time. In other words, there is no way to use all the hardpoints and have anything like burst damage without sucking wind.
The game doesn't need artifical damage speedbumps. It needs to force players to stop bursting and start coordinating. People burst because damage over time often loses to coordinated burst fire, and there is no meta. There is literally one game mode right now - kill everyone. Even in Conquest, you auto win if the other team is dead. You ca always kill-win reliably unless some of the enemy are in lights and play smart.
This game has gone about as far as it can without Community Warfare, and it's starting to show.
#4
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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:31 AM
There are a ton of problems with the high alpha game play that is in place right now. If the enemy team brings ppc high alpha builds and never spreads out, only playing peek-a-boo then the game becomes quite stail. It may have to do with a lack of cover on most maps, but the fact is when you turn a corner in a hunchback or some other medium or light and you get half way killed in one shot then there is little scouting or flanking taking place as it is too risky to do so. With the seismic sensor the way it is now it is difficult to make an organized flank as the enemy can see how many mechs have left the front lines and are circling around to a different location. It would tremendously help the light and medium mechs as they have smaller profiles and less armor. Making a hit in the same place with 4 ppc or 2 ac/20 is incredibly deadly against mechs with 40 or so armor on their torsos. Even an atlas is cored out in around 4 hits to the center torso from such builds. If you slow down the snipers pinpoint ability it will make damage spread slightly and most mechs will be able to sit in sniper fire for more than a few seconds without being cored out. Instead they would receive nearly the same amount of total damage, but it would be spread across different parts of the mech depending on the snipers skill. It dynamically changes the game so that in order to kill a mech snipers have to tear them down little by little instead of poking out their center torso in just a few hits.
Another point I would like to make is that letting people do high pinpoint alpha damage to one location all at once makes the rules that are derived from table top play so cut throat that few mechs go down after having taken any more than 5 or 6 hits from ppc/LL/ac20 builds. Sure you can argue that is why they doubled the armor count, but it is still over way too quick imo.
The gauss gun is much less of a problem yet as no mechs can run dual gauss effectively with a standard engine (dual gauss jeager mech has to short on ammo or lasers to put even a decent standard 250 in).
The ac20 jeager on the other hand is such a scary mech that it can take on 4 mechs at once and seriously damage one. Many players will hide in the middle of their team with this build and wait untill someone tries flanking then they intercept them. The ac20 jeagers main problems of speed and range are then bypassed. and suddenly as a reward for flanking the enemy you are greeted by an ac20 jeager brawler and a team full of snipers. This may sound bad, but if you have the enemies attention like this your doing it right. It is just overly difficult to do compared to being the turtle team yourself. If you have ppc and ac20 high alpha builds then you can play defensive and just do peek-a-boo untill you win. Very few people have the patients to wait the 15 minute timer so if you play defensively and near the base you will be rushed eventually and easily have the advantage. The game doesnt really reward aggressive players with less weapons and big standard engines right now as the high alpha battle is over in a few big punches.
When running light and medium mechs becomes increasingly difficult fewer people will run them making scouting or starting a brawl or even flanking even harder as both teams stack up on armor and guns and focus less on speed. That is exactly why some people hate the caps in conquest because the entire team is consisting of only heavies and assaults almost from the start. It only takes one person to win with an undefended base if the other team is too slow. This is exactly why you see teams with mainly assaults and lights do so well compared to mix weight teams.
Another beauty of nerfing high alphas in this manor is that it also affects mechs that run 2 or 3 ppcs with a gauss gun like the highlander or cataphract can easily use. Going about the high alpha problem from the heat angle affects these builds much less and they still have nearly the same punch and range as pure ppc builds.
Try this build with arm lock some time and tell me high alpha builds arent a little too effective compared to most other mechs in the game.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...53eed8207b74bd8
It also works on a catapract 1x not just the 3d. I think this is the deadliest mech in the game right now.
Then try turning arm lock off and firing the 2 arm ppcs independent of 2 torso mounted ones. It will play similar to what i propose as a fix for the high alpha problem.
Another point I would like to make is that letting people do high pinpoint alpha damage to one location all at once makes the rules that are derived from table top play so cut throat that few mechs go down after having taken any more than 5 or 6 hits from ppc/LL/ac20 builds. Sure you can argue that is why they doubled the armor count, but it is still over way too quick imo.
The gauss gun is much less of a problem yet as no mechs can run dual gauss effectively with a standard engine (dual gauss jeager mech has to short on ammo or lasers to put even a decent standard 250 in).
The ac20 jeager on the other hand is such a scary mech that it can take on 4 mechs at once and seriously damage one. Many players will hide in the middle of their team with this build and wait untill someone tries flanking then they intercept them. The ac20 jeagers main problems of speed and range are then bypassed. and suddenly as a reward for flanking the enemy you are greeted by an ac20 jeager brawler and a team full of snipers. This may sound bad, but if you have the enemies attention like this your doing it right. It is just overly difficult to do compared to being the turtle team yourself. If you have ppc and ac20 high alpha builds then you can play defensive and just do peek-a-boo untill you win. Very few people have the patients to wait the 15 minute timer so if you play defensively and near the base you will be rushed eventually and easily have the advantage. The game doesnt really reward aggressive players with less weapons and big standard engines right now as the high alpha battle is over in a few big punches.
When running light and medium mechs becomes increasingly difficult fewer people will run them making scouting or starting a brawl or even flanking even harder as both teams stack up on armor and guns and focus less on speed. That is exactly why some people hate the caps in conquest because the entire team is consisting of only heavies and assaults almost from the start. It only takes one person to win with an undefended base if the other team is too slow. This is exactly why you see teams with mainly assaults and lights do so well compared to mix weight teams.
Another beauty of nerfing high alphas in this manor is that it also affects mechs that run 2 or 3 ppcs with a gauss gun like the highlander or cataphract can easily use. Going about the high alpha problem from the heat angle affects these builds much less and they still have nearly the same punch and range as pure ppc builds.
Try this build with arm lock some time and tell me high alpha builds arent a little too effective compared to most other mechs in the game.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...53eed8207b74bd8
It also works on a catapract 1x not just the 3d. I think this is the deadliest mech in the game right now.
Then try turning arm lock off and firing the 2 arm ppcs independent of 2 torso mounted ones. It will play similar to what i propose as a fix for the high alpha problem.
#5
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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:25 AM
Convergence would be a cool way to nerf the long range sniping. However it wouldn't change the ac20 jeagers. Still a better way to stop some of the ppc boating than fiddling with heat penalty.
#6
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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:45 PM
Vermaxx, on 18 June 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:
An AC20 Jag is pretty terrifying until you hit him with four mechs. He might still seriously damage someone, but you will definitely kill him.
The game doesn't need limits on alpha, it needs more reasons to take a long range or efficient build. All the maps have clear, easy ways to avoid long range fights. All the maps have simple paths that funnel people into short range maulings where people try to beat each other to death with bricks. The game needs maps where this isn't the rule. The game needs a meta where ammunition might become limited throughout the day as your faction does poorly. The game needs a meta where repair costs increase for certain items based on rarity and how often you lose them.
The game does not need hard limits on how fast you can shoot weapon groups, or punishing weapons with phantom heat. I hate fighting 6-PPC-Stalkers. I hate fighting AC40 mechs. I hated fighting Splatcats when they weren't terrible. I hate fighting LRM boats. I like running a build closer to efficient, but I generally run the same way you run in tabletop - hotter is better because more heat means more guns. This isn't a boss fight centric MMO. DPS is meaningless if your numbers are too low to breach someone in short order. That is why the machine gun is still worthless. What matters more is how much you can pump out and how long it takes to hit.
I don't run any of the power builds listed above, but I fully expect many of my builds will be unfairly penalized by the new rules. The new rules seem focused on "stock" mech loadouts for the number of weapons that can fire at once, and almost no one runs anything like stock mechs. My K2 is OFTEN in an X-Wing config with either four large or four PPC. With the new rules, I expect I will only be able to fire two at a time. If they go by a really strict version of "stock" for that mech, any two cannons other than machine guns will generate phantom heat, anything more than two PPC, and anything more than 2 energy at a time. In other words, there is no way to use all the hardpoints and have anything like burst damage without sucking wind.
The game doesn't need artifical damage speedbumps. It needs to force players to stop bursting and start coordinating. People burst because damage over time often loses to coordinated burst fire, and there is no meta. There is literally one game mode right now - kill everyone. Even in Conquest, you auto win if the other team is dead. You ca always kill-win reliably unless some of the enemy are in lights and play smart.
The game doesn't need limits on alpha, it needs more reasons to take a long range or efficient build. All the maps have clear, easy ways to avoid long range fights. All the maps have simple paths that funnel people into short range maulings where people try to beat each other to death with bricks. The game needs maps where this isn't the rule. The game needs a meta where ammunition might become limited throughout the day as your faction does poorly. The game needs a meta where repair costs increase for certain items based on rarity and how often you lose them.
The game does not need hard limits on how fast you can shoot weapon groups, or punishing weapons with phantom heat. I hate fighting 6-PPC-Stalkers. I hate fighting AC40 mechs. I hated fighting Splatcats when they weren't terrible. I hate fighting LRM boats. I like running a build closer to efficient, but I generally run the same way you run in tabletop - hotter is better because more heat means more guns. This isn't a boss fight centric MMO. DPS is meaningless if your numbers are too low to breach someone in short order. That is why the machine gun is still worthless. What matters more is how much you can pump out and how long it takes to hit.
I don't run any of the power builds listed above, but I fully expect many of my builds will be unfairly penalized by the new rules. The new rules seem focused on "stock" mech loadouts for the number of weapons that can fire at once, and almost no one runs anything like stock mechs. My K2 is OFTEN in an X-Wing config with either four large or four PPC. With the new rules, I expect I will only be able to fire two at a time. If they go by a really strict version of "stock" for that mech, any two cannons other than machine guns will generate phantom heat, anything more than two PPC, and anything more than 2 energy at a time. In other words, there is no way to use all the hardpoints and have anything like burst damage without sucking wind.
The game doesn't need artifical damage speedbumps. It needs to force players to stop bursting and start coordinating. People burst because damage over time often loses to coordinated burst fire, and there is no meta. There is literally one game mode right now - kill everyone. Even in Conquest, you auto win if the other team is dead. You ca always kill-win reliably unless some of the enemy are in lights and play smart.
If it takes 4 people to take down 1 ac20 jeager mech then how is that a fair build!? What if there are 2 jeagers with ac20s are you saying you are going to have to hit them with 8 mechs?
As far as maps that have funnels to close range brawls... Caustic comes to mind as one that doesnt have this. If you flank either way it is quite out in the open, and if you flank too wide around the rim of the map you will get capped on or crushed due to splitting up too far apart.
What matters more is how much you can pump out and how long it takes to hit. This is probably the underlying opinion based topic that I personally have a problem with. To me 6ppc is 60 damage and it takes just a second to line up the shot and hit and that is too short of a time to hit in my opinion. It drastically changes the game play and makes almost all non ppc using builds obsolete. The ppc is an excellent weapon and i believe there should be a limit on its use just like the ac20 and guass. Can you imagine if you could bring 3 or 4 ac20 or gauss rifles with full armor?
I dont think that 2 ppcs could ever suck wind. Just having 2 ppcs on a mech is pretty incredible. It hits like an ac20 from 540 and can be fired quite a few times before over heat. Throw on 2 large lasers and you have a massive amount of ranged fire power still, but not the pinpoint damage that 4 ppcs or 4 LL would give you. I think this change would be a positive one to the game play. And as always with the delay timer change you could still bring 4 ppcs or LLs with no heat penalty if you wanted, you would just have to wait the .5 seconds to fire the second volley.
As far as bursting, I think that it is a fun part of the game. Get a lance with an atlas to hide a couple of mediums behind it. Using the atlas as a wall they close the distance through some of the sniper fire, then when in range they come out from behind the atlas and start pounding the long range mechs with closer range guns that are more powerful, like an ac20 or a bunch of medium lasers. Adversely the snipers could see the rush coming and fall back and relocate to another firing line to keep the sniper fire up without getting hit by the closer range weaponry. Therefore mechs with 2 ppc and speed would be more effective than a 6ppc stalker as they have the speed to relocate and use teamwork to hinder the rush and crush it.
Thanks so much for replying Vermaxx. I would love to hear more people's opinions on the topic of high alphas and how they affect game play.
#7
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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:48 PM
It doesn't "take" four people to kill an AC40. What I was TRYING TO SAY and what you missed, is DON'T GET INTO EVEN FIGHTS. Take four guys to kill one. Hell, take 5-8 if you can wrangle your team. Alley-f#2k people to death in an unfair, uneven, and unfun (for them) fight. Every member they lose is a higher chance you will win. DO NOT run off assuming your 'perfect build' is going to mean you get awesome damage and kills, because in my experience you just run into several enemies and then you produce nothing. This game isn't going to be about solo stats in the final version, it's going to be about winning HARD.
Caustic is deceptive, because it has giant sight lines...which you can completely ignore. There is a valley on one side completely hidden from the rest of the map unless you get into it also. Both teams can approach the mountain in such a way that things turn into a brawl, or you can use the mountain to get one team in a really bad wide open position while you have all the cover in the world.
Huge alphas are a two edged sword. No, I do not agree 60 damage in one second is obscene, but it is certainly hard to fight at range. Up close, you can kill the sucker when he overheats, or get in his min range, or just take several people and circle him so he can't hit anyone. There isn't anything in MWO that cannot be defeated currently, the simple fact is teamwork is almost nonexistent.
2 PPCs will easily suck wind if they define that as a 'high damage alpha' and add in waste heat. 2 PPC is already 22 heat BEFORE any funlove they stick you with. I can forsee it being 30 or higher, which is obscene for 20 damage.
Caustic is deceptive, because it has giant sight lines...which you can completely ignore. There is a valley on one side completely hidden from the rest of the map unless you get into it also. Both teams can approach the mountain in such a way that things turn into a brawl, or you can use the mountain to get one team in a really bad wide open position while you have all the cover in the world.
Huge alphas are a two edged sword. No, I do not agree 60 damage in one second is obscene, but it is certainly hard to fight at range. Up close, you can kill the sucker when he overheats, or get in his min range, or just take several people and circle him so he can't hit anyone. There isn't anything in MWO that cannot be defeated currently, the simple fact is teamwork is almost nonexistent.
2 PPCs will easily suck wind if they define that as a 'high damage alpha' and add in waste heat. 2 PPC is already 22 heat BEFORE any funlove they stick you with. I can forsee it being 30 or higher, which is obscene for 20 damage.
#8
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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:21 PM
Vermaxx, on 19 June 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:
2 PPCs will easily suck wind if they define that as a 'high damage alpha' and add in waste heat. 2 PPC is already 22 heat BEFORE any funlove they stick you with. I can forsee it being 30 or higher, which is obscene for 20 damage.
Why would they add in waste heat for 2 ppc? That would be rather harsh.
#9
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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:38 PM
I have a simpler solution. Hardpoint size restrictions. PGI should take a good look at OP chassis and limit the number of large weapons that can be fitted.
#10
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Posted 19 June 2013 - 09:15 PM
Brown Hornet, on 19 June 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:
I have a simpler solution. Hardpoint size restrictions. PGI should take a good look at OP chassis and limit the number of large weapons that can be fitted.
The problem with doing this is it can easily limit too much of the customization of mechs. Much of the fun of mechwarrior is the flexibility it gives you with the mech bay.
#11
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Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:12 PM
Brown Hornet, on 19 June 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:
I have a simpler solution. Hardpoint size restrictions. PGI should take a good look at OP chassis and limit the number of large weapons that can be fitted.
This kills most mechs hands down. People will have LITERALLY no reason to run anything but the biggest heavies and assaults and ONLY the ones carrying large type weapons already. It COMPLETELY invalidates any build for lights who sub in an ERL/PPC/ERPPC/cannon for comic damage.
At that point they might as well just lock it to stock mechs, because you're so heavily limited in what you can take for what you own there is almost no wiggle room. They would need to start sharting out a COUPLE new mechs a month to get everyone into something they like.
No, the problem is not "small mechs with big guns, and big mechs with too many big guns," and the solution is not waste heat. Limiting customization is not the answer either. The solution is for maps to encourage less burst brawling and more spread out gunning, and add in the gorram meta where items and ammo can suffer shortages. A 6PPC Stalker is pretty good up close (as long as its more than 90m) OR at snipe range, but at long FORCED SNIPE RANGE, it starts missing shots and overheating. The game right now has no restrictions on gear availability, ammo availability, UPGRADE availability, any real penalty for mech loss, and no real incentive to run less 'big gun' builds for better profitability. The CW meta can theoretically add in ALL KINDS OF STUFF to do that.
And bear in mind, Clan mechs have obscene alphas by DEFAULT, better tech BY DEFAULT, and many of their weapons do more damage to begin with. Doing some of these proposed changes to INNER SPHERE MECHS means Clan mechs get even harder to match, and some Clan mechs just blow up when you pull the trigger.
jollyrancher1, on 19 June 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:
Why would they add in waste heat for 2 ppc? That would be rather harsh.
Because the K2 has three weapons loadouts - 2 (small) ballistic, 2 (small) energy, 2 (big) energy. They've already stated the likely MAXCAP for any mech is going to be 3 PPC at once. I admit, waste heat on 2 PPC is unlikely if you ONLY fire two PPC, but what happens if you pair two PPC with two AC5 or AC10? Now you're carrying a 40 damage alpha, 2 of which came from what were originally machine guns. The point of my fearmongering is simple - they're being vague about the system but it CLEARLY borrows HEAVILY from the standard builds for its general rules. Yes, a standard K2 could probably fire 2 PPC without a penalty, but nothing else in that group. No cannons, no additional lasers. The mech loses a lot of its Hail Mary potential when it cannot burst for 40 without shutting down.
#12
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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:15 PM
Beleive it or not OP, but some of us BUILD our mechs to do just as you hate.
More Alpha, More Mech. MAMM!!
<3 for your opinions, but I love it more when I can core a jenner with 6med lasers.
XOXO
More Alpha, More Mech. MAMM!!
<3 for your opinions, but I love it more when I can core a jenner with 6med lasers.
XOXO
Edited by V3rg3r3, 20 June 2013 - 08:16 PM.
#13
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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:57 PM
V3rg3r3, on 20 June 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:
Beleive it or not OP, but some of us BUILD our mechs to do just as you hate.
More Alpha, More Mech. MAMM!!
<3 for your opinions, but I love it more when I can core a jenner with 6med lasers.
XOXO
More Alpha, More Mech. MAMM!!
<3 for your opinions, but I love it more when I can core a jenner with 6med lasers.
XOXO
6 Medium lasers would be unaffected by the change i proposed.
#14
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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:37 AM
Vermaxx, on 20 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:
Because the K2 has three weapons loadouts - 2 (small) ballistic, 2 (small) energy, 2 (big) energy. They've already stated the likely MAXCAP for any mech is going to be 3 PPC at once. I admit, waste heat on 2 PPC is unlikely if you ONLY fire two PPC, but what happens if you pair two PPC with two AC5 or AC10? Now you're carrying a 40 damage alpha, 2 of which came from what were originally machine guns. The point of my fearmongering is simple - they're being vague about the system but it CLEARLY borrows HEAVILY from the standard builds for its general rules. Yes, a standard K2 could probably fire 2 PPC without a penalty, but nothing else in that group. No cannons, no additional lasers. The mech loses a lot of its Hail Mary potential when it cannot burst for 40 without shutting down.
If they leave missles and smaller ballistics alone like ac10 ac5 uac5 and ac2 then it will make them more saute after for the very reason you listed. you could put 2 ppc and 2 ac10 together to get a 40 dammage alpha. The difference in projectile speeds is what spreads out the convergence for this build, so it isnt as big of a pinpoint high alpha mech as a 4 ppc k2.
#15
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Posted 22 June 2013 - 03:11 AM
Vermaxx, on 20 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:
This kills most mechs hands down. People will have LITERALLY no reason to run anything but the biggest heavies and assaults and ONLY the ones carrying large type weapons already. It COMPLETELY invalidates any build for lights who sub in an ERL/PPC/ERPPC/cannon for comic damage..
You're not listening to what I'm saying and what people have being saying since closed beta. Some chassis are OP because they can boat OP weapon combos. Fix that. Light/ med mechs shouldn't be running around with dual ppcs. Assault mechs shouldn't be running around with 4-6 PPCS or 4 LRM15s. Instead u guys r calling for complex mechanics when pgu can't even hotfix an issue.
#16
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- Legendary Founder
- 755 posts
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- LocationKitzingen, Bolan Province, Protectorate of Donegal, Lyran Commonwealth
Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:40 AM
Brown Hornet, on 19 June 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:
I have a simpler solution. Hardpoint size restrictions. PGI should take a good look at OP chassis and limit the number of large weapons that can be fitted.
Its the only real solution.
#17
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- Shredder
- 76 posts
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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:41 PM
Wieland, on 22 June 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:
I have a simpler solution. Hardpoint size restrictions. PGI should take a good look at OP chassis and limit the number of large weapons that can be fitted. Its the only real solution.
I hope this is a last resort. Limiting hard points more than they already are based on size really limits what can be done in the mechlab.
Brown Hornet, on 22 June 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:
You're not listening to what I'm saying and what people have being saying since closed beta. Some chassis are OP because they can boat OP weapon combos. Fix that. Light/ med mechs shouldn't be running around with dual ppcs. Assault mechs shouldn't be running around with 4-6 PPCS or 4 LRM15s. Instead u guys r calling for complex mechanics when pgu can't even hotfix an issue.
My proposition doesnt really affect lights and mediums who run 2 ppc mechs. However I dont believe very many of the lights with 2 ppc are very practical.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d89868708b5f08e
Most lights who load up with 2 ppc and start snipping from a distance lack high speed brawling capabilities so if they are countered by an enemy light and get shredded.
Medium mechs who bring 2 ppc are exellent snipers, but they are weaker to return sniper fire and brawling much like the lights. 2 ppc on lighter frames also takes so much of their tonnage that they dont have much room for other weapons and mounting 3 ppcs on a medium IS affected by the change i proposed.
#18
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- Bad Company
- 22,783 posts
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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:17 PM
Meta this. Meta that. I'm sick of this "Meta" crap.
It's a freaking game, not a real-life simulation of real life combat. As such, this endless cycle of QQ-nerf-QQ-nerf is making this, which in essence is nothing more than a video game, less fun to play. People are so upset by the things that are slaughtering them that they'd rather cry like little babies than adapt to the situation at hand.
Do you want real combat? Go to the Congo, Syria, or Afghanistan. This, on the other hand, is a just game.
End of rant.
It's a freaking game, not a real-life simulation of real life combat. As such, this endless cycle of QQ-nerf-QQ-nerf is making this, which in essence is nothing more than a video game, less fun to play. People are so upset by the things that are slaughtering them that they'd rather cry like little babies than adapt to the situation at hand.
Do you want real combat? Go to the Congo, Syria, or Afghanistan. This, on the other hand, is a just game.
End of rant.
#19
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- Shredder
- 76 posts
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Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:21 PM
Mystere, on 22 June 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:
Meta this. Meta that. I'm sick of this "Meta" crap.
It's a freaking game, not a real-life simulation of real life combat. As such, this endless cycle of QQ-nerf-QQ-nerf is making this, which in essence is nothing more than a video game, less fun to play. People are so upset by the things that are slaughtering them that they'd rather cry like little babies than adapt to the situation at hand.
Do you want real combat? Go to the Congo, Syria, or Afghanistan. This, on the other hand, is a just game.
End of rant.
It's a freaking game, not a real-life simulation of real life combat. As such, this endless cycle of QQ-nerf-QQ-nerf is making this, which in essence is nothing more than a video game, less fun to play. People are so upset by the things that are slaughtering them that they'd rather cry like little babies than adapt to the situation at hand.
Do you want real combat? Go to the Congo, Syria, or Afghanistan. This, on the other hand, is a just game.
End of rant.
I dont believe the thread was started in the spirit of complaint. It is a change to the game play that nerfs the pinpoint of high alpha builds. There was very little mentioned about realism outside of 1 sentence. The thread was originally started in the spirit of making the game more fun, and I honestly believe that the game would be more fun with the changes I mentioned earlier.
As far as adapting to the situation, have you tried the 4 ppc xl 340 cataphract with arm lock. It is amazing right now.
#20
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- Philanthropist
- 701 posts
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- LocationElysium
Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:36 PM
Jollyrancher, I think yr suggestion is good as a starting point. It would be good if they limited the 0.5s dealy to weapons not mounted to the same part of the mechs. E.g. each segment fires separately. You's still have the swayback putting out a high dps alpha and make hps much more valuable than they r now.
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