6 replies to this topic

[Tolkien]

Hi there,
I'm writing this post to approach what I and at least some others in the community think are problems with the meta game that are only going to get worse with the eventual introduction of the clans. I am speaking of what might be called 'high alpha' builds but is also known as a 'convergence' problem.
One of the places this is showing up is the 6ppc stalker which can be a scary beast. It has heat problems but it can put out enough damage, fast enough, and most importantly focus it on a small enough spot on your mech that you are in serious trouble. Before you disagree that this needs to be fixed, the devs have announced that they are seriously considering a big change to the game to discourage this style of play.
From Paul I's 11 June Gameplay update:

Quote

We set a threshold of the number of weapons fired simultaneously. By simultaneously fired, we mean weapons of the exact same type being fired in under a 0.5 second time range. This 0.5 second time comes from the amount of time between weapon switches when Chain Fire is engaged. Chain Fire is a mechanism meant to help MechWarriors manage their heat and we do not want to punish those who use this mechanic.
If a player fires a number of weapons beyond the threshold, the heat scale will increase significantly for every weapon fired beyond the threshold.
...
How each weapon system will be individually tuned:
Weapons like the PPC would have their thresholds set to 3 with a higher heat penalty per additional simultaneous firing of PPCs.
3 PPC fired = 0 heat penalty
4 PPC fired = 10 heat penalty
5 PPC fired = 20 heat penalty
6 PPC fired = 40 heat penalty

The numbers might change but the concept that the devs are playing with to prevent high alpha/convergence problems is to make mechs that fire too many copies of the same weapon at the same time overheat.
This proposed approach is going to add a lot of complexity and it is going to be full of holes!

In theory the clans will be out soon and they have serious technological advantages that are going to make this system entirely redundant, and possibly even make it harder to balance clan and inner sphere technology.

If stock clan mechs are legal designs in this game, here are some of the mechs that are going to completely defeat the proposed multiple weapon copies system proposed by paul>
Hunchback IIc
50 tons
65 km/h + jumpjets
Armed with 2x Ultra Autocannon 20's

Any 50 ton+ clan mech that has 2 ballistic mounts in the torsos or arms will be able to mount this.
It gets much worse...
Clan gauss rifles are 20% lighter than inner sphere ones (3 tons less per rifle) and a slot smaller so two can fit in a side torso.
Clan ERPPcs are 50% smaller (only two slots) than inner sphere, and are 1 ton lighter. They do 50% more damage for an equal amount of extra heat.
Clan Ultra AC10s are only 4 critical slots vs. 7 for the current normal AC10, while they weight 20% less (two tons per gun).
Clan lasers are generally smaller (clan ER large laser is 1 slot...) deal 25% more damage and have 30% more range for the same heat while being about 25% lighter.
Clan XL engines are smaller leaving more room in each torso. Additionally blasting out the side torso on a clan mech with an XL engine does not kill it. Clan double heatsinks are 50% smaller than inner sphere DHS, so you can pack a lot more of them in. Additionally clan endosteel is literally twice as good as inner sphere giving the same weight savings for only 7 critical slots (inner sphere takes 14) - same with ferro fibrous armor again 7 vs. 14.


Nothing will stop a customized clan mech that has a 'balanced' weapons hardpoint loadout from combining a gauss rifle, 2 er ppcs and an ultra AC10 to produce a machine that doesn't run very hot, doesn't run afoul of the proposed heat penalties since it doesn't 'boat' any weapons (a pair of a weapon is not boating) and can put as much more more pain than the 6 pack ppc stalker does today.



The proposed fix to convergence and clan tech
I propose that instead of counting copies of the same weapon fied within 0.5 seconds that the following is done.
When a mech is hit by a weapon it does the damage to the location where it hits - this will mean that skillfull shots are still rewarded. However, subsequent hits to the same mech within approximately X seconds are randomly assigned to the side of the mech hit. Hits on the front/top go to the front/arms/legs, hits on the back go somewhere on the back/arms/legs.

This will mean that an atlas cresting a hill that takes fire from 2-3 mechs will not immediately lose his centre torso and will encourage a less static style of play. It will extend matches and allow mechs that have artwork problems like the hunchback to keep their precious weapons a little longer, but if they duck out of combat for X seconds they can still be hit by skillful shots to specific locations.

It's self evident that large amounts of damage to pinpoint locations are making some chassis much less viable than they should be, while pushing the flavour of the month so hard towards hard hitting long range weapons that even the devs are floating ideas on how to prevent it. The problem is they are pursuing an avenue that does not really fix the problem it just punishes it after the fact, and also leaves the clans wide open to exploit the same holes in the system.
I know some people will very much want every shot to be *boom headshot* on the pixel where the mouse cursor is, but this is pushing the game in a very unhealthy direction that will only get worse with the clans.
Please devs, take a look at this and the other ideas from the community as well as those people in the office have and pick one that *intrinsically* spreads damage around. We've tried the pinpoint solution and it is getting ugly, so ugly that you are about to introduce dramatically more complexity into the heat system to try and stamp it out.

An alternate INTERIM fix to convergence
Let the players allocate all of the armor points on the mech wherever we want them.
Seriously.... until something is done about convergence let us put 10 points on each arm and 200 points in te centre torso if we want to - it will also make games last a little longer since we each know which part of which mechs tends to get blown off first.

Let me add that there are other great ideas out there like Homeless Bill's proposal to add a targeting computer stat to the game> http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/ His post does make it easy to add in the clan targeting computer in a sensible way, but it might be a bit heavy to implement up front and doesn't do anything for close range combat.
Also, I am sure others have probably made similar proposals to this one and I am sorry for not acknowledging them. I'm not as active on the forums as I could be so it's not intentional, I just haven't seen it.
I also would like to recognize MustrumRidcully as I believe he was bringing attention to this issue way back in December. That was some good foresight and I don't think many saw how big it would become.

[Homeless Bill]

Tolkien, on 21 June 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

[Redistribution of damage in limited timeframe]

[Allocate armor however we want]

Homeless Bill's proposal might be a bit heavy to implement up front and doesn't do anything for close range combat.

I actually haven't seen this proposed yet. The most similar thing I've seen is a damage reduction (or stealing, as I like to call it) mechanic. I certainly like it more than inexplicably reduced damage. I would hope this is relatively easy to implement, but with host state rewind, I could see a few problems. I definitely think it's better than the ridiculous heat penalty they're proposing, but it would present a few problems:

1. Good teamwork and focus fire should be able to vaporize people. It may just be me, but I see no reason a team focusing fire shouldn't be able to melt a 'mech in seconds. I'm okay with an 8xPPC blast to the center torso if four people had to aim and coordinate their shots. I think this solution will make focus-fire a bit of a confusing dance, because you'll still want to - just not when two other people already are. Some people may disagree and say that no amount of focus-fire should be able to insta-melt 'mechs, but that comes down to personal preference, and I'm a big fan of coordination and teamwork.

2. Player feedback is pretty tricky for this. If a player clearly hits them in the center torso and the damage spreads, how is that explained to the player. Games have to be made for didn't-read-the-manual Steve, and I fear that without proper explanation it will make players frustrated.

3. It doesn't adjust for different kinds of weapons. It takes a lot more skill to put 40 points of laser damage on a component than 40 points of PPC damage. I think tying such a system exclusively to damage doesn't account for all that it needs to.

On the interim fix: I vote yes just for the hilariousness. It would certainly alter the dynamic of the game to finding out where they stacked and where they skimped. I can't say I think it's the right way to go about balance, but it does let the other half of the game be as unbalanced as the pinpoint weapons themselves.

One point I'd like to make about my proposal: it totally fixes close-range combat. Affecting all ranges equally was one of my core goals. If it can't fix a build that runs 2xUAC/20, it isn't a sufficient solution.

[shellashock]

few things right off the bat. We have no idea what kind of clan tech will be implemented to start. For all we know, the really sucky weapons will be the only clan versions put in the game, like a clan machine gun, clan small pulse laser, whatever.

Second, how exactly does your first proposal make sense either through canon or real life. I'm sorry, but I cannot see how this is possible at all in real life or canon, which will make this idea immensely unpopular right from the get go. Plus, adding random number generation will just add a whole new level of complexity to shooting, and as homeless bill said, it does not make sense how focus firing will spread instead of hit the same area just because multiple people are firing.

Actually, the first idea would just further promote using sniper weapons or heavy front loaded damage because you still do lots of damage right away to one spot, obsoleting any weapon systems that have a high firing rate or group fired to be useful (see AC2's and machine guns). If you try to have different weapon types be allowed to be group fired without spreading, then your system is just as complex as the devs proposed system. I just can't see any way for this to work without leading to further issues.

Edited by shellashock, 21 June 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[Mechsniper]

Pinpoint weapons are not "unbalanced". The problem is 4/6 ppc boats and sniper overloaded builds like a gauss/ppc cataphract. ( I realize the irony in my pointing this out as a preferred sniping player but I want true balance in the game, want a sniper take a sniper mech like an 9M or a highlander with a guass on it). Hard point size is the missing part of the puzzle to balance alpha boats. Machine gun hardpoints should never have held Gauss rifles (think Guassapaults) and a medium laser slot on a stalker should not hold a ERPPC unless designed to hold it. The idea of making hit probability determined more than by weapon convergence and skill in guessing/ compensating for projectile speed, your mech speed and vector, and their mech speed and vector, would make it a noob fest that held no incentive to become skilled at and folks in my camp will not be here thereafter. Check the MC purchases of the people behind these ideas PGI. Most of us vote with our money in the end. If my idea loses I take my marbles and go, but as I want the game to succeed, I urge prudence in supporting the ideas from those spending MC.

[jollyrancher1]

Here is my proposal and I feel it changes less aspects of the game.

http://mwomercs.com/...-meta-gameplay/

It focuses on putting a .5 second stall before certain weapons can be fired therefore it spreads out the damage of the high pinpoint alpha that is a problem right now without changing heat, hard points, or armor. Please post your thoughts in the thread.

I havent thought much how my proposal would effect clan mechs, but I believe it would be minimal.

[Blue Shadow]

I have to disagree with you Tolkien, players are not going to like random hits and nether do i think it would be simple for the devs to implement into the game. I think the heat thresholds is actually a good idea, to get around it you are still receiving disadvantages of using a combo PPC/GR/AC10 they have different coll down time, range, damage, travel speed, the right hard points, and so on. As for clan weapons they wont have TT exact rules just like IS and will also be balanced in other ways rather then on a Clan weapon vs IS weapon basis.

[Asmosis]

why not just post these things in the command chair feedback thread about alpha's? unless that topic got locked or something, theres no point opening up threads on the same topic like that other guys thread here, which basically copied one of the replies in the main thread.

Heres the link:
http://mwomercs.com/...te-11-jun-2013/


As for clan tech, a lot of it will be nothing like TT rules. Just look at DHS, they vary quite wildly from TT rules. I sincerely doubt clan DHS will simply be the current DHS occupying 2 crit slots instead of 3, since MWO's aim is to have balance whereas in TT clan tech is clearly superior in almost all cases.

The difference is of course that PGI know what they have planned for clan tech, and are making balance changes now that (I assume) take that clan tech into account, which we don't know about. That's why so much balancing is going into the ground work, otherwise clans will be a nightmare of constant patching and balancing every time something new comes out.

Edited by Asmosis, 22 June 2013 - 05:34 AM.