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Convergence


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Poll: Convergence (109 member(s) have cast votes)

Does this game need convergence changed

  1. Yes, change convergence (89 votes [81.65%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 81.65%

  2. No, I like pinpoint alpha (14 votes [12.84%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.84%

  3. Uncertain (6 votes [5.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.50%

Only Arm mounted weapons with lower actuator converge

  1. This is a great Idea (28 votes [25.69%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.69%

  2. Better than pinpoint, but not what I prefer (39 votes [35.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.78%

  3. No this idea is bad (33 votes [30.28%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.28%

  4. Uncertain (9 votes [8.26%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.26%

All weapons converge on target over a short time

  1. This is a great idea (24 votes [22.02%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 22.02%

  2. Better than pinpoint, but not what I would prefer (43 votes [39.45%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 39.45%

  3. No this idea is bad (34 votes [31.19%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 31.19%

  4. Uncertain (8 votes [7.34%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.34%

Cone of fire based on holding reticle on target

  1. This is a great idea (20 votes [18.35%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.35%

  2. Better than pinpoint but not what I would prefer (28 votes [25.69%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.69%

  3. This is a Bad idea (52 votes [47.71%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 47.71%

  4. Uncertain (9 votes [8.26%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.26%

Cone of fire based on movement, heat, and other factors

  1. This is a great idea (39 votes [35.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.78%

  2. Better than pinpoint, but not what I would prefer (32 votes [29.36%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.36%

  3. This is a bad idea (35 votes [32.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.11%

  4. Uncertain (3 votes [2.75%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.75%

Firing multiple weapons at once affects aim.

  1. This is a great idea (22 votes [20.18%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.18%

  2. Better than pinpoint, but not what I prefer (40 votes [36.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 36.70%

  3. This is a bad idea (45 votes [41.28%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 41.28%

  4. Uncertain (2 votes [1.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.83%

DocBach's Reactive Reticle

  1. This is a great idea (30 votes [27.52%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 27.52%

  2. Better than pinpoint, but not what I prefer (27 votes [24.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.77%

  3. This is a bad idea (21 votes [19.27%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.27%

  4. Uncertain (31 votes [28.44%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.44%

Homeless Bill's Targeting Computer Load

  1. This Idea is great (26 votes [23.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.85%

  2. Better than pinpoint, but not what I prefer (33 votes [30.28%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.28%

  3. This is a bad idea (31 votes [28.44%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.44%

  4. Uncertain (19 votes [17.43%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.43%

Manual Convergence

  1. This idea is great (17 votes [16.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.50%

  2. Better than pinpoint, but not what I prefer (23 votes [22.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 22.33%

  3. This idea is bad (50 votes [48.54%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 48.54%

  4. Uncertain (13 votes [12.62%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.62%

DarkJaguar's (added after 84 votes)

  1. This idea is great (4 votes [16.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.00%

  2. Better than pinpoint, but not what I prefer (4 votes [16.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.00%

  3. This idea is bad (6 votes [24.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.00%

  4. Uncertain (11 votes [44.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 44.00%

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#1 Ningyo

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:06 PM

I am trying to gather all major convergence methods and see what people actually prefer among them.

If I have missed an method please mention it in a post and I will add it to the poll. (note methods added later might be short a few votes since others already voted and didn't delete and revote. So % may be as important as overall numbers)

Also please feel free to comment on the merits and drawbacks of the different methods. (and ignore trolls they go away if you don't feed them, oh no this might be a crumb)

_________________________________________________________________________

Present methods

Only Arm mounted weapons with lower arm actuators converge. (no random factors)
Spoiler


All weapons converge over time. (no random factors)
Spoiler


Cone of Fire based on holding reticle on target. (has random factors that skill can remove)
Spoiler



Cone of Fire based on movement, heat, and other factors. (random factors tactics can remove)

Spoiler




Firing multiple weapons at once reduces accuracy.(random factors that only affect group firing)
Spoiler


DocBach's Reactive Reticle (A convergence based on movement, range, and other factors: Detailed)
Spoiler



Homeless Bill's targeting computer load (preventable random factors)
Spoiler


Manual Convergence (no random factors)
Spoiler



DarkJaguar's (Mix of cone of fire with fixed torso convergence point, and other factors) (some random factors)
Spoiler



_________________________________________________________________________________

Some well written Posts having to do with convergence in general, did not think of this right away, but will try to add more to cover different viewpoints.

Precision vs Accuracy

Spoiler

Edited by Ningyo, 02 July 2013 - 07:06 PM.


#2 wolf74

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:13 PM

You missed mine which was a Manual controlled Convergence

See this post in another thread about it:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2487633

#3 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:32 PM

Torso Mounted weapons should have either a fixed convergeance or none at all.

I am torn on the arm mounted with "only" lower part there. That cuts out quite a few mech variants, and I'm inclined to offer up a differing opinion;

Have it so Partial Arms with only the upper portion be able to converge for the Long to Max range of the weapon, while Full Arms with both the upper and lower converge at any distance. Its more accommodating to those that sacrifice the hardpoints as well as helps encourage a moderate brawling distance for pinpoint accuracy if they desire it.

Despite it all, I think DocBach is on the right track for the reticle on those points.

As for Alphastrikes, I'm inclined to want to favor them as really 'special' occasions sometimes, wanting the weapons to normally fire in a chain-fire to help force inaccuracy over time. However I don't know if that is either an acceptable or desired option with how group firing works.

Homeless Bill's Targeting Load option has merits for those, but last I recall from it I think perhaps its too complicated and needs some streamlining. But I must admit I'll need to relook it sometime.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 26 June 2013 - 09:33 PM.


#4 Sharknoms

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:35 PM

View Postwolf74, on 26 June 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

You missed mine which was a Manual controlled Convergence

See this post in another thread about it:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2487633


Actually that would be a bad idea in my opinion. I like the Instant Action Aspect of the game.
I really don't want to spend half the match with converging my weapons.
As much as I HATE randome dice rolling weapon fire, I would take it over this manually convergence thing.

Edited by Iguana Iguana, 26 June 2013 - 09:35 PM.


#5 Ningyo

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:47 PM

Added yours Wolf74 hope you are fine with my description of what manual convergence is.

personally I am not a huge fan of it as either you have to change convergence for each weapon or weapon group individually which adds a lot of advantages for people with more mouse buttons (have a weapon group preset for circle strafing range on a Jenner, and another for at 200m and another for at 300m, etc then just hit the button for a decent to very good alpha without much effort. OR you have it do all weapons always in which case you can't have different settings for your close and long range weapons in a build with a varied loadout which penalizes them even more.


That said it could have its strong points and might just need more careful implementation. And I still think it would be better than the present pinpoint alpha, though only slightly.

#6 PanzerMagier

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:14 PM

Great thread. Give that man a badge.

#7 Homeless Bill

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:53 PM

Anything that is not movement penalties. For the love of all that is good in the world, please no movement penalties.

Besides my own solution, I'd pick Doc's. It's way too sim-oriented for mainstream gamers, but **** them. The only part I dislike is no convergence for torso weapons. Though it's unrealistic, I see no reason to make some chassis objectively better than others based on such an extremely useful capability. Balance > realism Edit: This is not a part of Doc's system; I was confused by the OP.

Otherwise, though, I'm a big fan. It's in-depth, it gives C3 and spotters more of a purpose, it would drastically alter combat, it's nothing like my proposal, and I totally dig it.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 27 June 2013 - 07:15 PM.


#8 blinkin

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:21 AM

most of the choices didn't really reflect my views. i think there are some changes that would be nice, but not because i give a crap about the pinpoint alpha whining.

i like the jump jet shake and i would also like some sort of rhythmic sway to be associated with running in a mech (i want to feel more like i am piloting a giant robot that is running at high speeds). i would be fine with not having any of the torso weapons converge, but i also don't see it as vital either. there are plenty of changes that i wouldn't argue against and again i am not particularly invested in most of them.

snipers are frustrating in any game when they get you under their cross hairs. also in every good multiplayer game i have seen with snipers the balance of them comes from level design. alpine peaks is an example of bad level design, large open areas with little cover and almost no way to conceal movement. tourmaline desert on the other hand is rapidly becoming a favorite of mine, large open areas for sniping BUT there is regularly distributed cover with many low valleys and ridges that can be used to sneak around behind targets. if i wanted to there are many cases where i could just stand behind the enemy and hold a target and watch him panic while he can't understand why the LRM won't ever stop, because there are so many of them who don't stop staring through their scope long enough to notice the heavy enemy catapult standing 30m behind them.

#9 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:12 AM

One method that I think might be one of the simplest to implement (but I could be totally wrong, it's not my code, after all):

Remove Group Fire for "heavy weapons" (single projectile + high damage) weapons. Basically anything that deals more than 5 damage per shot cannot be group-fired.

Actually, I would even recommend to just eliminate group-fire entirely and always have a server-enforced 0.25 second cooldown Yes, that encourages people to use bigger weapons instead of stacking many small weapons.

But that would justify the Hunchback 4G having 7.5 DPS at 270m (5 DPS AC/20, 2 x 1.25 DPS from the MLs) and the Hunchback 4P having 10 DPS at 270m (8 * 1.25 DPS from the MLs), or it having a 30 damage alpha vs the 4Ps a 40 damage alpha.

Convergence is not a problem if just a single weapon converges every time. (Yes, that's still convergence, because your weapon flight path converges with the imaginary path of the crosshair to the target on the target.) Adjusting convergence and convergence delays itself will cause a lot of UI challenges in communicating the current status of convergence to the user. And it still doesn't really motivate people to not group-fire. It just means you really want to wait longer before you press the trigger of your Death Star Convergence Laser/PPC

Quote

snipers are frustrating in any game when they get you under their cross hairs. also in every good multiplayer game i have seen with snipers the balance of them comes from level design. alpine peaks is an example of bad level design, large open areas with little cover and almost no way to conceal movement. tourmaline desert on the other hand is rapidly becoming a favorite of mine, large open areas for sniping BUT there is regularly distributed cover with many low valleys and ridges that can be used to sneak around behind targets. if i wanted to there are many cases where i could just stand behind the enemy and hold a target and watch him panic while he can't understand why the LRM won't ever stop, because there are so many of them who don't stop staring through their scope long enough to notice the heavy enemy catapult standing 30m behind them.

We may disagree on how problematic alpha-strike-convergence-boating-death-star-lasers are, but I agree that Tourmaline is pretty awesome. It has something for everyone IMO.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 27 June 2013 - 01:13 AM.


#10 Renthrak

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 02:23 AM

You forgot my suggestion, slow convergence. Similar to the 'All weapons converge over time. (no random factors)' option, but taking ~5 seconds for full convergence instead of 0.1 to 1.

#11 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 02:59 AM

View PostRenthrak, on 27 June 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

You forgot my suggestion, slow convergence. Similar to the 'All weapons converge over time. (no random factors)' option, but taking ~5 seconds for full convergence instead of 0.1 to 1.

But does this really discourage alpha boating?

What convergence does
You point your mouse cursor on a target. This marks a spot on the target you wish to hit.
Now all your guns are angled so that when you press the trigger, the projectile or beam will fire so that it will hit that spot in the 3D space. (If the target moves, the spot doesn't move it - it's stationary. So you still need to lead with weapons that are not hit-scan).

That means convergence helps you even if you only ever fire a single gun. WIthout it, the weapon would fire in a straight path in front of you. If you were standing in front of a mirrored version of your mech, your arm mounted laser would hit the mirrored mech's laser, while your center torso mounted SRM2 would hit the center torso mounted SRM2 on the enemy, even though you aimed at the cockpit.

Delaying convergence hurts the single-weapon-shooter just as badly as someone that fires multiple weapons at once. The only advantage he migh thave is - if he knows how far off his weapon shots from the target ,he can adjust a lead. But there is currently nothing in the UI that would support him. It would be complete guesswork for the player, and maybe after many, many matches of trial & error, he might be able to do it reliable. But this might not appeal to many current or potential players.
Even with this system, boating can be seen more benefitial, since at least each weapon operates the same, and you don't have to consider both the weapon position and its individual flight speed.
And if you are willing to wait for convergence, boating mechs are basically the ones that are most likely to benefit.

#12 Ralgas

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 03:11 AM

ungh. While i don't mind the convergence fators i'm stromgly opposed to the "random" in cof's as it won't work vs lights, and the flea/locust will only exaserbate the problem.

making a mech stop to be able to hit small targets only encourages capwarrior in light roles and ppc warrior to counter it

#13 trollocaustic

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 03:16 AM

Convergeance is FINE. Why do people complain about EVERYTHING other than what actually affects gameplay? (massive screen shake from missiles and autocannons, autocannon damage, autocannon ammo, gauss everything)

#14 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 03:26 AM

Convergence is most pressing problem right now in my opinion.
Removing perfect auto convergence fixes 90% of all boats/cheese builds.

With all due respect to all guys posting multiple and very interesting ideas on convergence my opinion is:
- No convergence for torso-mounted weapons (they converge at a fixed distance which you can set in mechlab);
- Manual convergence for arm-mounted weapons (with limited speed, possibly different for different mechs);
- Auto convergence for arm-mounted weapons provided you install a targeting computer that takes 1-2 critical slots and weights 3-5 tons depending on a mech and/or amount of weapons.

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 27 June 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

But does this really discourage alpha boating?


It does, the whole point of alpha build is to get out of cover, fire and get back to cover within 1 second.

#15 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 03:33 AM

View Posttrollocaustic, on 27 June 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Convergeance is FINE.


lol

View Posttrollocaustic, on 27 June 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Why do people complain about EVERYTHING other than what actually affects gameplay? (massive screen shake from missiles and autocannons, autocannon damage, autocannon ammo, gauss everything)


Screenshake? Massive? From missiles and ACs? AC damage? Gauss?
Did you update your game since september or are you still playing closed beta?

#16 Whompity

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 04:10 AM

I voted for no convergence on torso weapons, as they are fixed mounts. Arms converge as normal. Easy peezy. Fixes the majority of high-alpha issues.

#17 Roland

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 04:49 AM

This issue is complex enough that I don't think the devs are really going to be looking to the forums for a solution.

They may be interested in knowing that folks are unhappy, but they don't seem to care much about how folks think things should be fixed. And to their credit, this is a reasonable way to look at it, given that most folks don't know anything about making games.

#18 wolf74

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:44 AM

First off thank you all for the good feedback on my idea. I was thinking of a simple one point convergence system. But feedback given to me made me think that as a player you could setup Fire group ranges. Default Keys would be all Convergence points moving together. But having a where you could (did not say have too) setup the weapon groups for different ranges could also work. In other words as the players get better they could start doing something like the below if they took the time

AKA
Group 1 (Your best weapons the Main group you use & change the ranges all the time on)
Group 2 You have the weapons you want to fire at about 400m setup here
Group 3 You have setup for 270m Range
Group 4 You have setup when you can see the white of the enemy pilots eyes (aka Point blank hugging range)
Group 5&6 You setup for sniping at 800m but you only use it every now an than so you put it on two group so you can key ether key

(Yes I voted my idea is great but I am bias about it and will not hide it :P)

#19 Captain Fantasy

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:46 AM

Default convergance is set at optimal range.
Modified by targeting computer
You have a mech targeted, your weapons converge at that distance (can't target that mech at 1200m? get a spotter)
pinpoint accuracy (full convergance) not available until target info aquired
sensor range module and target info gathering module become compelling

#20 Syllogy

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:51 AM

Convergence is only an issue if you aren't forcing the enemy to lead you as a target.





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