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This Is Not Battletech, Is It? Trying To Find A Balance Between Game Design And Lore


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#1 Mylardis

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:11 AM

Ok, so before anyone asks, yes, this is my first post. I have been reading for many months, but have refrained from opening any topics. The urge to do so has become greater during the last few weeks, and reached a boiling point yesterday.

What happened? Well, I took my Dragon Slayer for a ride, did 22 damage and got hit twice (and died). Yes, I can see your urge to say "l2p, noob". That's exactly what the opponents (5 Stalkers, 2 Highlanders and 1 Atlas) said.
I believe I'm not more than a medicore player, and I refuse to say I don't need to learn. But I'm not completely stupid. If ELO is actually functioning the way it is intended, then those "pros" where matched with me because my score contributed to a somewhat "equal" match.

After that (repeated) experience I started thinking about this game. Just to get it straight, I am a tabletop player, I have played all BT computer games (yes, I really am that old!) and I have read all novels. But no, I do not believe that a mech sim should be a TT clone.

What I do strongly believe, as someone working in the software industry, is that games should be one thing: fun!

So this is basically a thread which aims to give my opinion on the game and steal the best ideas of many others on these forums (kudos to you all) for making it the game we all want to play.

Dear reader, you have arrived here and are thinking "oh what the heck, this is too much text"? Then stop reading, there will be more.

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1) Getting started: The facts in MWO

I'm not going to stretch this out, it has all been said many times, so let's make it short:
  • There are many heavy and assault mechs in every match
  • There are many PPC's, Gauss, and to a lesser extent, AC20 in every match
  • Of all mechs, Highlanders and Stalkers seem to dominate
  • You can fit any weapon in any hardpoint, as long as you have enough spare slots and tonnage
  • As boating is not restricted, weapons are boated - it is easy and efficient
  • Heat is not a serious problem
  • Alpha damage is preferable to continued DPS, as long as you are a "competitive player" (no, I resist the urge to start ranting - judging by the grammar of many of these "competitive players", they are no older than 15)
  • Your aim decides where you hit (ping, hit detection and other problems left aside for the sake of discussion)

2) What I would not change

Most people start off by saying what part of the things I listed above they want to change, and how. I want to try a different approach by saying what I would not change:

Convergence is something many players complain about. Compared to novels and tabletop it is wrong, as computers or your dice decide if and where you hit your enemy.

But: MWO, or any mech sim, is neither a TT nor a novel. It is a computer game, a pvp game at that. There has to be a measure of human factor in the game to make players actually want to play it. The easiest way to achieve this is by creating a (partly) skill driven competition. I strongly believe that trying to solve the problem by introducing methods employed by first person shooters (adaptable crosshair) or anything like that will break the game, it will take away the fun, the goal to become better.

And, to be quite honest, we are talking about 31st century technology - the computers should be more advanced than today, shouldn't they? I know that in the novels the authors used the workaround of bad computers or too much processing load to keep a Kai Allard-Liao from headshotting every opponent. That's fair enough - but this is a game, not a book.

It needs aim to matter or it will become boring, so not fun - something no game should because nobody will play it.

Customization is another thing some people complain about. Yes, considering TT rules and the novels, IS mechs should not be customizable (only in very narrow margins).

But: Come on, don't kid yourself, you know it to be true - it is fun trying new builds, optimizing builds or just hanging around in mechlab fiddeling with some new paint. Nobody wants to give that up. I don't, you don't. And of all BT history and lore methods imaginable, hardpoints seem a sound solution to the problem of achieving balance while not ignoring lore (and still giving clans an enormous adavantage in the game - they simply shouldn't have hardpoints and should be able to mount anything anywhere, space and tonnage provided).

Long story short, if you insist on TT and novel rules in a computer game, it will fail.

3) What needs to be changed

Like many others, I believe some things can not stay the way they are if this game is to suceed.

Of all things, mech type balance needs to be adjusted. If you check the books, the TRO's, the TT rules, all of them agree on one fact: medium mechs are the workhorse of all forces. Lights should be common too. Heavys or assaults should be rare, very rare. Take the Awesome as an example. In the German version of BT, the mech is called "Todesbote", which translates to "Harbinger of Death" - when you read one the few novels actually containing a fight with one of those beasts, the author takes that name very literally. The other warriors fear that mech, because of 3(!) PPC's and 80t assault class - both are incredibly rare. It should be that way in a BT based computer game, too. Matches should contain mediums mostly because it is no way imaginable in the BT universe having 4 lances of assault only mechs fighting all over the universe at all times. It also eliminates scouting as a role, as many others have already mentioned. More important though, it is boring seeing the same matches with the same mechs and the same loadouts all the time - boring is not fun. Bad for a game.

I don't have a conclusive and working solution to this problem. Many have suggested R&R - I liked that idea at some point but I think PGI was right to take it out of the game so it can attract more players and not build enormous roadblocks for newbies. Another possible solution is weight balancing, but that would not change anything since 4 Stalkers would be matched to.... 4 other Stalkers. I could imagine forcing groups to consist of 3-4 Mediums, 1-2 lights, 1-2 heavys and 1-2 assaults. It would make more players choose other weight classes. I don't really like the idea of forcing too much in a game, since it's always prone to reduce the fun in the game but I don't have a better solution - do you guys?

PPC's (and to a lesser extent, Gauss and AC20) are the other thing which needs changing. I don't know how Michael Stackpole or any other author in the BT universe would react if you told them. But honestly, medium mechs sporting 2 PPC's as standard, even Spiders running around with PCC's? That is plain and simple stupid.

Try to think back - PPC's are actually a quite rare weapon. A few mechs have 1, usually as "the big gun", e. g. the Battlemaster. Two famous mechs wield two of these frightful cannons (Marauder and Warhammer). And just one mech in this timeline sports a whopping 3 PPC's: The Awesome. The same applies to Gauss and AC20. All three of these weapons are fairly uncommon and are not boated on a regular basis.

So we can conclude, MWO is not Battletech when it comes to weapon balance and distribution. I myself prefer more "lore-like" builds, balanced around one major weapon backed up by secondary weapons. But that's just me - fact is, most players do quite painfully obviously not prefer such builds.

There have been many solutions offered by many players, starting from adjusting other weapons to make them more interesting (SRM) than PPC/Gauss/AC20, or ending with limiting the game to stock only (in general, or as a game mode).

Again, no solution is perfect. I strongly believe that just tweaking some values will not change anything. If the heat of PPC's (or when firing more than X at the same time) is raised, players will drop one of their PPC's for some extra heat sinks and continue to play. It really doesn't matter whether it's a 50 or 60 damage alpha - you are dead after two, one way or the other (at least in an assault class mech, you're still dead in a light or a medium after 1 alpha).

Tweaking other weapons is desirable anyway due to a number of other reasons, but it will not solve the problem. Even if some players persistingly claim otherwise, as long as your opponent is not absolutely incompetent, you will not get near enough to use those buffed SRM before he has alpha'ed you twice. It has been mentioned in other threads - you should balance around the best players, not the worst. And if you do, that's the conclusion - better SRM will not render PPC/Gauss/AC20 invalid.

Two solutions seem to have the least bad side effects: hardpoint limitation (small, medium and large weapons; or any other way preventing sticking six of the most rare weapons on one of the most rare mechs in the whole BT universe) and greatly increasing heat penalties. I strongly advise on not choosing one of these, but both. It doesn't break stock build rules (and makes the Awesome desirable again, despite it's profile as major drawback) and actually adds more thinking, tweaking and trying out to the game. Just think back - applied to the current MWO scale, your mech should already lose top speed at something like 20% heat when considering TT rules - it doesn't need to be that tough a penalty, but heat should matter significantly.
That, in turn, raises the level of simulation and therefore encourages players to adapt, become better and think more - it makes the game more entertaining, more fun. As long as convergence stays untouched, as stated above. Boats are still there, but limited to a few chassis with drawbacks, encouraging balanced lances, builds and tactics involving using what you have (not sitting on a ridge sniping for 5 minutes). And it still leaves enough customization options to make mechlab fun.

4) Conclusion / TL;DR

At the moment, MWO is pretty far away from TT or novel lore. It doesn't need to be 100% canon and it shouldn't, since computer games are not TT. Plus, computer games have different technical and logical rules to follow.

But: All games should be fun - I, like many others, want a new, fun Mechwarrior game. The solution is not one change, but a few: Heat, hardpoint restriction and matchmaking need adjustment.

Convergence and customization, though not canon, are good for the game and should stay that way.

#2 Fiesognom

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:48 AM

If they only allow awsomes to carry 3 ppc and the other assaults 2, heavys 1 and medium,light non it would be a step away from ppc warrior, also a missletub-nerf like if i have only 6 tubes i can only carry srm2-6, ssrm2 or lrm 5, nothing else like lrm 15s or 20s. But the problem is your loosing the complete free way in choosing your loudout which some alphamechlovers could not accept. For me it wouldnt be a problem cause im bored of specialiced alpha cheese builds and love setups with weapons for long/mid and shortrange where you have longer fights with every mech and not only use button 1 for 2 times and the other mech dies. It should be an epic fight which has to be earned, not a onehit boring without tactic fight.

#3 Karl Streiger

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 03:02 AM

I agree that when based on "rare or even unique build" the convergence issue - should vanish.

Lets see: I have to think about - Warhawk or DireWolf (both clan tech - but easy without much modification possible to spam you with a 60dmg alpha - with no convergence it is as deadly as the actual Hex PPC Stalker)

The game could only be called balanced if only 1 of them found its way into a game... but what if a 4 premade team have those mechs?

#4 Kiiyor

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 03:16 AM

Nice first post. You had me with 'hit twice and died' - anyone shouting L2P for that with a straight face likely pilots an Atlas with every scrap of armour at the front... so they can probably take 3. It used to be that crossing open ground was suicide - now any exposure to enemy fire is a game of high explosive Russian roulette.

Some great points there, but out of all the solutions posted on the forums anywhere about curbing boating, none have leapt out at me.

While the devs have posted that they will be aggressively looking for a high alpha solution, I don't envy them trying to implement it.

#5 Mylardis

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:05 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 05 July 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

I agree that when based on "rare or even unique build" the convergence issue - should vanish.

Lets see: I have to think about - Warhawk or DireWolf (both clan tech - but easy without much modification possible to spam you with a 60dmg alpha - with no convergence it is as deadly as the actual Hex PPC Stalker)

The game could only be called balanced if only 1 of them found its way into a game... but what if a 4 premade team have those mechs?


I agree that clan tech will hit IS tech in the face based on my proposals - but that's the whole point of it, isn't it? Clan tech is a lot better than IS, plain and simple - it is not impossible to make decent matches though, by utilizing something similar (or identical) to BV (battle value). In a 1vs1, with equally skilled pilots, a clan mech should win. There is no reason to balance around something that was specifically intended to be imbalanced imho.

View PostKiiyor, on 05 July 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Nice first post. You had me with 'hit twice and died' - anyone shouting L2P for that with a straight face likely pilots an Atlas with every scrap of armour at the front... so they can probably take 3. It used to be that crossing open ground was suicide - now any exposure to enemy fire is a game of high explosive Russian roulette.

Some great points there, but out of all the solutions posted on the forums anywhere about curbing boating, none have leapt out at me.

While the devs have posted that they will be aggressively looking for a high alpha solution, I don't envy them trying to implement it.


Basically you're putting it in short and good words. I do not envy them, either - quite the contrary, as stated above there probably is no perfect solution. Just a few which are without alternative and some with less drawbacks than others.

But it all comes down to one thing: If you want people to play and pay your game, it needs to be fun. I simply refuse to accept that constantly playing matches where the first player to show himself is instantly dead is fun for a majority. And I really hope I'm right about that. If not, I should quit playing altogether after more than quarter of a decade of gaming.

By the way, the person who said "l2p" was the ridge humping hexa-PPC Stalker that had killed me while exposing only a bare minimum of himself at the dropship in Frozen City.

Edited by DasAmok, 05 July 2013 - 04:34 AM.


#6 Jenkss

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:06 AM

I think that the idea of small, medium and large hard points is a great one. If it means some of my builds no longer work then so be it. But if it brings an end to the 1shot game that we're playing now then I look forward to the change.

#7 Mylardis

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:32 AM

View PostJenkss, on 05 July 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

I think that the idea of small, medium and large hard points is a great one. If it means some of my builds no longer work then so be it. But if it brings an end to the 1shot game that we're playing now then I look forward to the change.


It will break some of mine, too. But I believe it to be a good way of solving a few issues in a sensible manner.

Convergence, as already stated, does not need to be touched, since the double armor values already permit for longer matches, as long as boating is not an issue.

In my suggestion, if somebody dies in less than 2 seconds, he probably made a mistake, and/or the opponent was playing better by focussing fire of a complete lance, not just 1 Stalker.

#8 El Bandito

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:11 AM

View PostDasAmok, on 05 July 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

And, to be quite honest, we are talking about 31st century technology - the computers should be more advanced than today, shouldn't they?


Considering how the Inner Sphere had pounded itself back to the Industrial Age, a working computer is a miracle itself in 3050.

#9 General Taskeen

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:16 AM

The spirit of battle tech was lost in December unfortunately, when I saw how they decided they wanted the direction of gameplay to go.

#10 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:17 AM

You touch on concerns many of us have. Specifically thinking, here's three ideas that may solve or at least put you on the road to solving a couple of the issues mentioned.

1) Drop weight limits.
I too agree that Mediums should be far more common than the other three classes. Medium>Light>Heavy>Assault. I believe the only way to do this is with drop weight limits. If you go in with a 250 ton limit, sure, you can have an Atlas, but you're going to sacrifice a lot for it and you're gonna hold it back like a queen in chess. The bonus is, this kind of holding back is in the lore too so that behavior would be encouraged (but not forced). Now, I am sure there's a magic number out there, I only threw 250 tons out as an example.

2) Boating
While I have been a victim of boats many times, and I myself will not boat (in the cheese sense, my Founders Catapult is close though with LRMs), I do not begrudge players from doing it simply because it's allowed and gets the win. However, it is not in the lore. I do believe that boating should come with a penalty and often times does. The only thing missing is I think there should be a heat penalty that increases exponentially for every same-type weapon fired in the Large Hardpoint category (more on this next).

3) Hardpoints
I do believe there should be hard point limits, but they must be simple or they just won't be worth the trouble. I propose two categories; Light and Heavy. Based on the stock loadout of a mech, these hardpoints would only be able to mount weapons of similar size. The only exception I think would be that a Large hardpoint can mount a light weapon, but not vise versa. Also that Light and Medium battlemechs should be limited to light (exceptions made where the stock loadout varies, for example, the Hunchback 4G).

Light hard Points (also limited by weapon type: Ballistics, Energy, Missile)
Machine Gun
AC2
AC5*
=====
TAG
Small Laser*
Medium Laser*
=====
NARC
SRM2*
SRM4
LRM5
LRM10

Heavy Hardpoints
Any weapons within the type.

*This includes all variations of the weapon; Ultra, Pulse, ER, Streak.

Edited by cdlord, 05 July 2013 - 05:18 AM.


#11 Mylardis

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:31 AM

View Postcdlord, on 05 July 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

You touch on concerns many of us have. Specifically thinking, here's three ideas that may solve or at least put you on the road to solving a couple of the issues mentioned.

1) Drop weight limits.
I too agree that Mediums should be far more common than the other three classes. Medium>Light>Heavy>Assault. I believe the only way to do this is with drop weight limits. If you go in with a 250 ton limit, sure, you can have an Atlas, but you're going to sacrifice a lot for it and you're gonna hold it back like a queen in chess. The bonus is, this kind of holding back is in the lore too so that behavior would be encouraged (but not forced). Now, I am sure there's a magic number out there, I only threw 250 tons out as an example.


Basically the same idea I had, too. I'm not sure whether one should force things in games in general - but in this case I just can't think of a better solution (except something similar, like the lance/team composition I gave as an example).

The important thing is to aknowledge that assault class mechs should not be the majority. And I say this as an avid upper heavy and assault class player. I would probably play more mediums if it was worth the effort, but as stated, I want to have fun in my little leisure time. In a medium or light, I'm quickly frustrated (90% due to PPC/Gauss/AC20 and mismatched games, 10% due to the disadvantages of living in Germany, e. g. really bad ping and bad hit detection - I SWEAR some of those shots must have been hits, the server disagreed).

Quote

2) Boating
While I have been a victim of boats many times, and I myself will not boat (in the cheese sense, my Founders Catapult is close though with LRMs), I do not begrudge players from doing it simply because it's allowed and gets the win. However, it is not in the lore. I do believe that boating should come with a penalty and often times does. The only thing missing is I think there should be a heat penalty that increases exponentially for every same-type weapon fired in the Large Hardpoint category (more on this next).

3) Hardpoints
I do believe there should be hard point limits, but they must be simple or they just won't be worth the trouble. I propose two categories; Light and Heavy. Based on the stock loadout of a mech, these hardpoints would only be able to mount weapons of similar size. The only exception I think would be that a Large hardpoint can mount a light weapon, but not vise versa. Also that Light and Medium battlemechs should be limited to light (exceptions made where the stock loadout varies, for example, the Hunchback 4G).


Small and large is perfectly ok, it doesn't need to be too complicated. The reason why I don't think an extra heat penalty when firing many similar weapons at once is enough is stated in my first post - the only change would be that players drop one boated weapon for some heatsinks.

Hardpoint restrictions and extra heat might solve it. I would just personally love to see more "sim" in this mech sim by having higher penalties for heat in general. If you take a look at the TT, you already start getting penalties pretty early on, and quickly building up after that.

With the goal of a fun game it doesn't need to be that harsh, but a little worse than getting 3-5 internal damage and no further inconvinience after firing 60 points of damage over a ridge. Still, it's secondary to the question of hardpoint limitations, I agree on that.

#12 Ragnar Darkmane

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:49 AM

Someone needs to tweet this thread to the devs so they can have a good read.

We seriously need small (,medium) and large hard points, that would go a long way for balancing the game.

#13 Mylardis

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 06:05 AM

View PostRagnar Darkmane, on 05 July 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Someone needs to tweet this thread to the devs so they can have a good read.

We seriously need small (,medium) and large hard points, that would go a long way for balancing the game.


feel free, I wrote it as my opinion, but like any other human I would of course love to see some of "my" ideas (they are not mine - all of these ideas have been voiced by community members, I just try to evaluate them from a different perspective, not isolating single problems) implemented.

If it's a good read, then nearly every goal has been achieved ;-)

#14 Argent Usher

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 06:22 AM

Hmm... hardpoint restrictions or not i think the player base mainly (ok of course not all) are going to look for loopholes and exploits in a system and run "cheese builds" rather than a "lore mech".
As example i run my JNR-D as a "Panther advanced" version with endosteel, ferro and a XL engine, have an ER PPC, 2x Streaks and some small lasers. I think my mech is more an ultra prototype as common part of the Kurita forces (he would certainly go into production if Kurita could pay for it. :D ).
I think a big problem is we have to easily access to rare tech and without R/R we don't really care about a kaboooom.

I hope we will see any kind of R/R in CW later and i still want something like a "classic battlevalue system" to balance the battles better. I don't think it is needed to make it ultra complicated, just taking the cbill value of your mech would be a good start.
State of the art tech is at a very high price and boating rare tech should be have a cumulative higher cbill value as you wrote with your PPC lore example and uneven matches should give finally each side an extra or lesser cash.
And will people try to cheat this system? Yeah no doubt that's why we have comstar. :o


Cheers from Berlin/Germany A.U.

#15 kilgor

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 06:41 AM

Actually, if a lot of things were still based on BT rules or rather Solaris VII rules, we wouldn't see a lot of the balance issues.

Currently in MWO,

Missing Repair and Rearm - Having R&R made the Mediums the workhorse because Assaults were so expensive to upkeep, which are our big boats.

Missing Heat Scale is what undid the balance of Energy Weapons

Extra ammo and lack of minimum ranges imbalanced Ballistic Weapons. There probably should have had rearming stations near the base instead.

In all reality, the Solaris VII rules addressed a lot of the issues already. In Solaris VII, weapons did 4x the heat, while Heat Sinks still dissipated at 1x or 2x, but the heat scale had also been quadrupled.

Let's take a look at the Solaris VII rules on the ER Large Laser. It generates 48 heat and has a delay of 3 rounds (or rather 3 seconds).

With a 0 To-Hit modifier, it's range is 1-14, +1 is 15-28, +2 is 29-42, +3 is 43-56, +4 is 57-66, and +5 is 67-76. So, let's say that 1 = 10 meters (with the assumption that a range of 1 is 1M), that means the ER LL would have an effective range of 760m. But, how do we deal with the + To-Hit modifiers, well, it could have used as a damage modifier, so at +5 To Hit, it's damage would be 50% less. So, in other words, for the ER LL to do it's max damage, the 'Mech it was shooting would need to be within 1 - 140m. In essence, this damage adjustment based on To-Hit modifier allows Light 'Mechs to survive better because of the reduced damage at longer ranges and thus allowing them the ability to scout.

On the heat side, let's say you have 10 Double Heat Sinks. That becomes 20 heat dissipation per second, so you have ER LL generate 28 heat (well, 29 or 30 if you're Walking or Running because moving generates heat) on the scale (48-20=28), but don't have to worry about possible shutdown until 56, but you lose1 movement point (approx 10 KPH). So, if you had 2 ER Large Lasers that you fired, that puts you at risk for shutting down 2 times and a potential ammo explosion and you lose quite a bit of speed with a -3 MP (~30 KPH) penalty.

Of course ACs had better heat, with the AC/2 and AC/5 generating 4 heat, but with a minimum range of 16 (160m) and 12 (120m) respectively, that helped balance it out because you had to chose between having a longer range at the cost of short range damage capabilities. The AC/10 generates 12 heat and a delay of 1 round while the AC/20 generates 28 with a delay of 2 rounds, but the limited ammo discouraged having those exclusively, because 5 rounds per ton for the AC/20 was appropriate for balance purposes.

in the end, this would mean people would have to be concerned with better management of weapons and heat even more weapon diversity and even Assaults wouldn't die so quickly like they do now unless focused by the entire team. Remember, Battletech has been around for decades and has been revised to provide better balance and game play experience, so by making changes or exclusions, things get imbalanced even more. That is also in regards to ECM and BAP.

Solaris VII Heat Scale (I would say fire modifiers should reduce damage by an additional 1%. E.g. 4% less damage at 96 heat)

120 Shutdown
112 Ammo Explosion (Avoid on a 8+)
104 Shutdown
100 -5 MP
96 +4 Fire Modifier
92 Ammo Explosion (Avoid on a 6+)
88 Shutdown (Avoid on a 8+)
80 -4 MP
76 Ammo Explosion (Avoid on a 4+)
72 Shutdown (Avoid on a 6+)
68 +3 Fire Modifier
60 -3 MP
56 Shutdown (Avoid on a 4+)
52 +2 Fire Modifier
40 -2 MP
31 +1 Fire Modifier
20 -1 MP

Edited by kilgor, 05 July 2013 - 07:32 AM.


#16 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 07:02 AM

View Postkilgor, on 05 July 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Extra ammo and lack of minimum ranges imbalanced Ballistic Weapons. There probably should have had rearming stations near the base instead.

Don't forget the DOUBLING of armor to increase survivability. That took a lot of punch away from the AC/20 and Gauss that no amount of extra ammo can really compensate for.... IMHO.

#17 kilgor

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 07:11 AM

Yeah, I had assumed a return to regular armor specifications as well. In BT, the Gauss had 8 rounds per ton, but a minimum range of 8. The major disadvantages of the Gauss in BT was its purchase/repair cost and the ammo cost and because the Gauss is a glass cannon, it could get expensive to keep on a 'Mech thus encouraging people to go with something cheaper to maintain.

I would have also expect Ultra ACs to have the ability to fire multiple times, if a person double taps, otherwise, just do single fire and if it did jam during a double tap, it would be out for the rest of the match as was the intended downside for the potential for double damage.

I also like the idea of including Battle Values to balance drops, but if it can't help balance, it could possibly be used as a modifier for XP and C-Bills earned during a match.

I know a lot of people like things easy, but this is why games become boring. With all of the Call of Dutys, Quakes, and Unreal Tournaments, one of the most memorable First Person Shooters to me was Outlaws. There was no auto reloading like in every FPS today, so if you ran out of bullets and didn't manually reload, your gun just clicked. It made for some interesting gun battles too because after firing all 6 bullets of my 6 shooter, I would reload just 2 bullets at a time and fire them off while most people tried to reload 6 and I usually killed them because they took so long trying to reload all 6 bullets.

Edited by kilgor, 05 July 2013 - 07:31 AM.


#18 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 07:14 AM

Yeah, I fully support a return to R&R, though they may need to change it a bit. Maybe give a 25% discount for people with bankrolls <500k? Be easier on the new people.

#19 Nunspa

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 07:40 AM

View Postcdlord, on 05 July 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

1) Drop weight limits.
I too agree that Mediums should be far more common than the other three classes. Medium>Light>Heavy>Assault. I believe the only way to do this is with drop weight limits. If you go in with a 250 ton limit, sure, you can have an Atlas, but you're going to sacrifice a lot for it and you're gonna hold it back like a queen in chess. The bonus is, this kind of holding back is in the lore too so that behavior would be encouraged (but not forced). Now, I am sure there's a magic number out there, I only threw 250 tons out as an example.



on NGNG they had said, more then once, that this IS coming.... all part of community warfare I guess

#20 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 07:40 AM

Ack long post.

First, there are quite a few liberties taken due to the fact that table top rules don't really fit nicely into a FPS game.

However. Your probably got hit more than twice and by mutliple mechs. I suppose a Quad PPC/ or AC/40 build could cave a RT/LT second and crit your XL in two shots but if you have good situational awareness and understand torso twisting as a defensive measure, then it is rare. This is probably why you got the L2P responses. Additionally, you have double armor in MWO where as weapon damage is still roughly the same as Table Top which means if you can get two hit in MWO, you could have more easily gotten two hit in a Table Top game.

As to the hardpoint, if you used the Table Top construction rule set, you could mount any weapon, anywhere without hardpoint restrictions. Want to load up 20 Medium Lasers go for it. Want 10 PPCs, if you got room do it. In this fashion, MWO is actually more restrictive, not less.

On heat. Heat in MWO is brutal compared to table top rules. You claim heat doesn't mean much but I beg to differ. In table top I could easily render two ER PPCs heat neutral with only 15 DHS. Heat neutral means ZERO heat. In MWO I think it takes something like 43 DHS to do that same thing. That means HEAT is roughly 3x more brutal than table top rules.

I could go on here but the basic truth is that alot of your complaints about adherence to table top aren't justifed or are downright wrong.

On the lore part, well I am not sure how anyone can fix that. Assasults were rare in Lore due to the cost associated with building and maintaining them. However, both the Highlander and Stalker would still dominate the battlefield even in lore.

As far as the loadouts...well I agree that per lore you the IS mechs weren't really customizable however I am not sure how fun the game would be if all we had was stock loadouts. I do know that alot of good mechs would be total crap if that was the case. Still it might be fun to have a stock config game mode.

As to the Alpha strike meta, I think people are just using Alpha to replace skill. I almost always use a mixed weapons set up on my mechs and I never have an issue with consistantly being one of the top contributers on my team.

In the end, I don't know what to tell you. Aside form a few minor annoyances, I am finding the game to be quite enjoyable at this point and I am far from a brainwashed {Noble MechWarrior} as at times I have been very critical if not downright scornful of PGI in many of my posts. They have made some total BS decisions that is for sure.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 05 July 2013 - 07:43 AM.






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