10 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

I've recently re-picked up my Spider for a spotting role, and I've noticed something strange with the spotting bonuses and rewards for spotting.

What I've noticed is, if I keep a solid lock like a good spotter should, I only get one reward. If I loose the lock though, and regain it, I gain a second spotting assist reward. If I lose my lock again, regain it, I'll get it a third time. (Provided of course that someone is also targeting my target and presumably shooting at them as well.)

What I think should be changed is that spotting bonuses could be based on damage caused by the spotting assists, reduced by your own damage caused during this time. Basically, if I sit around behind enemy lines, risking myself to detection and "bug squishing", then I should be rewarded for my spotting participation, but rewarded less for just locking on while I'm fighting someone (you are locking on more for your own sake rather than that of the support mechs).

My example is, I set up my Spider with a TAG system and ECM (and 2 defensive med lasers). My goal is to infiltrate behind enemy lines undetected, TAG a target, and sit there as they get pelted by LRMs. As soon as I cause any damage to my target, they instantly know that I am there, and roughly where I am. So, to properly spot for my team's LRM assets, I must sacrifice my own damage values for someone else to gain their damage values. If I do my job right, I can spot several mechs, without them knowing how they are being locked on, with my TAG system, boosting my LRM friend's damage and other effects.

My overall question is, should I get rewarded for this high risk, low damage role? I find, I earn very little in EXP and C-Bill rewards within this role, and only gain any significant rewards when I am forced to defend myself, or I hound a target (like a lone Atlas) for a long while till someone else can come and kill them off. Otherwise, I cause very little damage, gain very little match score, and yet contribute a lot to a team set up with a good balance of LRMs.

As an LRM pilot who I tend to play with has said, "You're invaluable to the team and let me get my own job done." For contributing so much, with so much risk, and sacrificing so much for the team, should I get a decent pay/exp/match rank? Shouldn't I gain more rewards for keeping a steady lock compared to locks that keep getting broken and required? Personally, for those who know me, I also like playing LRM based mechs. I'd find anyone who can keep a solid lock for me to do what I need to do as a Godsend, and I want to see them rewarded for their good work.


I guess I'm saying that spotters who dedicate themselves to the art of spotting should gain more rewards for doing their job well, and not for doing a poor job or not taking the sacrifice for the team (AKA: I'm a brawler that's just fighting and happened to lock on to a target). I suggest that the rewards system be looked into again, and rebalanced to help support and/or encourage the support roles as well as the combat roles. (Such as scouting, Spotting, LRM, NARC/TAG, ETC.)

My suggestion runs like this, take it as you may (or give me feed back on why people say yea or nay):
- Spotting should be rewarded by the amount of damage dealt to the target by other friendly mechs while being spotted.
- Subtract the damage dealt by yourself to the mech you are spotting from the damage bonus the target received by other friendly mechs. (This isn't to reward those who sit back and do nothing, but to reward those that sacrifice damage for stealth and support.)
- Keep a base minimum you will always earn for each mech you spotted. (This will mean that, even if you are an attacking styled mech, you will still gain some reward for spotting, even if it's just a side product of you fighting.)

As a note:
- This bonus "Damage" is not registered as damage you caused, but would act as a number to be multiplied for a reward bonus. This would mean, if you sit back to "Spot" and there is no one to spot you (thus you are wasting your time and a spot on the team), then you only gain the base spotting bonus. Otherwise, you would gain a larger bonus for friendly mechs that use your spotting assist to cause their damage from safety. High risk, high reward.
- The multiplier for this reward should/could be lower than actual damage that you dealt reward. This way, you gain rewards, but not as much as the damage dealing roles might, as they had to expend their ammo, heat and time into your target to assist you, as much as you assist them.

Example:
I spot a target for 10 seconds. In that 10 seconds, I caused 20 damage myself. However, my LRM friends cause a total combined damage of 50 damage to the target. My reward would be a base spot of 20 exp, 50 C-bills. I would gain a spotting damage bonus of 30 "damage", which (just throwing out a number) could be x5 (or whatever. I don't recall what the multiplier for damage is, so I'm making numbers up). That would be an extra 150 reward for C-bills/EXP. (This multiplier would be similar to damage done as rewarded now.)
The math works like this.
Spoting: Base reward (Like current system).
X= Damage I caused to the target myself.
Y= Damage caused by my Allies while I was spotting for them.
S= Spotting Damage Reward

X-Y=S


Then, your total reward could be,

S*5= Reward for bonus spotting damage.

(Reposted this as I've received PMs about it and it was in the Feedback Archives.)

[Tesunie]

Just last night I only got 2 spotting rewards after destroying two mechs with my spotting assist. And another match I got 8 spotting awards.

One match (ECM gave me away after I got too close), I got 2 spotting awards off one mech, because lost lock once and required it.

Seems like I'm being rewarded less for doing a good spotting job, more for doing a poor spotting job, and even more if I'm just going in for killing. No wonder why Spotting, Scouting and other support roles are just about unheard of in this game. You don't get rewarded for doing it well. Unless it involves damage and killing, the awards just aren't there.

[Garth Erlam]

The way it works is when an enemy is hit, then you get the spot bonus. So if you spot someone, they get hit, you get a spot. If you spot and noone hits them, you haven't 'spotted' a Mech for someone. Does that make sense?

[Tesunie]

Garth Erlam, on 22 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

The way it works is when an enemy is hit, then you get the spot bonus. So if you spot someone, they get hit, you get a spot. If you spot and noone hits them, you haven't 'spotted' a Mech for someone. Does that make sense?

The problem isn't spotting a target that doesn't get hit, the issue I'm finding is that when I spot a target, it doesn't matter how many times it gets hit in one lock. It will count it as one spot. But, say I lose my lock and regained it a few moments later on the same target, I get an additional spotting bonus. I get more reward if I lock onto a target, let it get hit with a few LRMs, then break the lock and relock, then have the relocked target get hit again. Compared to just locking once, keeping a solid lock for several moments enough for LRMs to kill the target and find a new one.

Basically, I've been finding out that, the better spotter I am, the less rewards I'm getting. The worse I am (provided someone will shoot and hit with LRMs on a shaky lock), the more rewards I seem to see.


I've been experimenting with this with a Spider 5D (model could be wrong), with ECM, 2 med lasers for defense, and a TAG system. I run behind the enemy lines without detection (on a good run) and literally just stand away and behind them TAGing them. If I do it well, I cause no damage, but provide a solid lock on till the death of my target (from allied LRMs). While playing this mech, I've noticed that when I do happen to loose my lock and regain it, I gain an additional spotting assist bonus. I've been feeling that my role, which has won games for my team, is under rewarded and it's a crawl to just get the basics done like this. I know being a dedicated spotter like this is unusual, and not often played, but I feel it's under valued and should see more rewards. I'm basically giving up most of my attack (if I hit my target, they know someone's behind them, messing up my spotting location) for someone else on my team to get kills and damage. (And if I fail, I tend to only get one spot, run around a lot, shoot my lasers... and eventually die...)

I know no system is perfect, and I'm just asking that the rewards system get a look over, especially when spotting bonuses are applied. A good spotter typically doesn't get many kills or produce much damage, but will help the team in a worthwhile way. I've had many thankful LRM based mechs who really liked the spotting jobs I did.




Oh, and GARTH RESPONDED TO MY POST! *Feels famous*

[Yaros525]

Well, during one of the July,21 rounds I've got 14 spotting assists. I thought it is a bug, and filed a ticket. So, apparently it is perfectly possible with that same-target 'multi-lock' mechanic ?

[Tesunie]

Yaros525, on 24 July 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Well, during one of the July,21 rounds I've got 14 spotting assists. I thought it is a bug, and filed a ticket. So, apparently it is perfectly possible with that same-target 'multi-lock' mechanic ?

As far as I can tell. Highest I got was 8 spot assists on 4 targets total. You get more rewards for holding your locks for less time... wait? What? Shouldn't you be rewarded more for doing a better job?

The spot reward system would be like rewarding a player for doing only 1 point of damage but shooting his weapons 500 times in a match and giving him more than someone who shot his weapons 20 times, and did 500 damage. (Just a random, unpractical example, but I think it serves for a good mental picture on what's happening.)

[blinkin]

spotters should get a percentage of damage done to targets from other sources. things like tag and narc should increase that percent bonus. players should get a VERY small bonus for spotting a target when no other friendlies have spotted that target for a while (more points for spotting a target after a longer time gap), because often simply knowing where a specific enemy is in combat can be incredibly important.

[Seefer]

I agree with Blinkin, Spotters should be getting a percentage of reward for hits and also a percentage of reward for the kill if the mech you're locked onto goes down. There's the danger of a class fulfilling this role eventually turning into something no players will want to bother with because you're experience in the game will turn into a long grind-fest progression while other kill-oriented friends race ahead of you. As well as relaitvely little CB rewards, repair costs will also bite into this too yes?

Also, after spotting I often run to the enemy base and sit there so they get the base under attack message with the intention of splitting their forces a little as they possibly send one or more units back. I then hit full steam to a nearby friendly to assist them while the enemy units back at their base waste a little time looking for me. As far as I can tell, even if I manage to get the base capture bar down to half or beyond, there appears to be no reward for this. Is my assumption right? I'm new so maybe I have this wrong?

Edited by Seefer, 25 July 2013 - 07:28 AM.

[Tesunie]

blinkin, on 24 July 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

spotters should get a percentage of damage done to targets from other sources. things like tag and narc should increase that percent bonus. players should get a VERY small bonus for spotting a target when no other friendlies have spotted that target for a while (more points for spotting a target after a longer time gap), because often simply knowing where a specific enemy is in combat can be incredibly important.

Basically how I feel, and what I was trying to say, but probably worded better than what I did.

[Oppresor]

Tesunie, on 21 July 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

My overall question is, should I get rewarded for this high risk, low damage role? I find, I earn very little in EXP and C-Bill rewards within this role, and only gain any significant rewards when I am forced to defend myself, or I hound a target (like a lone Atlas) for a long while till someone else can come and kill them off. Otherwise, I cause very little damage, gain very little match score, and yet contribute a lot to a team set up with a good balance of LRMs.

In short Yes, there needs to be a better reward system for those who dedicate themselves to the Spotter or Recon roles. Like you I use a Spider; in my case it's a 5K and is almost totally unarmed, just 1 x Med Laser for defence. I didn't go the ECM route but did fit an AMS & Beagle; the unit also benefits (joke) from the 4xZoom module which as you will know by now is next to useless. I run as a primary Recon, sending back target designation, grids and strengths to my fire group. I have also fitted the Artillery Module and so can, under the right conditions, bring in a fire mission. I suppose the real difference in our roles is that where possible I don't get in too close, however I am open to LRMs without ECM; lets just say the AMS doe's it's best.

Rewards

From what you described it looks like the current system cannot determine if you have already locked on to a target, this is why its giving additional spotting assist rewards. They need to add code into the lock function that sets a flag against a unit that you have locked onto and recognises your unit. This would mean that when you lock the target again, the code flag says that you have already locked that unit and cannot get the spotting reward again for it. This is only part of the problem though; the second part is that you should be rewarded for lock time. I.e. the amount of time you either stay locked to that target or time on target with TAG. Ideally this should be in GXP, not C-Bills.

[Velixo]

Sorry for the slight necro, but the problem with subtracting friendly damage with your damage on a mech is that players who just sit behind cover get waaaay too many C-Bills for doing nothing. Love the thought behind this though, sounds like a very necessary improvement!

*edit: corrected spelling*

Edited by Velixo, 16 August 2013 - 05:37 PM.