86 replies to this topic

[James The Fox Dixon]

The main problem with the current Meta is the pin point high alpha builds aka the PPCx2/Gauss. In order to fix this problem we must look at the mech hard points themselves. In all of the art and what is currently in game are the weapon hard points in the torsos being fixed in place. By being fixed to fire in one direction they cannot possibly have any convergence to hit the same spot. The only weapons that could possibly converge together are weapons mounted in the arms.

Torso mounted weapons are fixed to fire in one direction as the weapons lack any type of movable weapon mount. This means that a right torso mounted weapon should always hit a different location than a center torso weapon. Say a Hunchback fires its AC/20 that is mounted in the right torso at a mech that is 100 meters away and facing him in the Center Torso, Right Torso, Right Leg, or Right Arm. All other weapons mounted in the other torsos hits would be moved over by one hit location as the AC/20 hit the CT. This means that the CT mounted lasers would hit the Right Torso and the Left Torso mounted weapons would hit the Left Torso, Left Arm, or Left Leg. Head mounted weapons should be very hard to hit with and will most likely miss all of the time.

[FatBabyThompkins]

I have liked this idea, for the most part, but there is a problem with it. 1 Torso weapon and 2 arm weapons means complete convergence. Aim the arms to fire where the torso weapon fires. Nothing changes for those high alpha pin-point builds. The hunchback would become significantly worse, however. A good deal of their weapons on torso based and thus would become harder to hit unless very up close and personal (not good for Quasimodo).

[James The Fox Dixon]

FatBabyThompkins, on 30 July 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

I have liked this idea, for the most part, but there is a problem with it. 1 Torso weapon and 2 arm weapons means complete convergence. Aim the arms to fire where the torso weapon fires. Nothing changes for those high alpha pin-point builds. The hunchback would become significantly worse, however. A good deal of their weapons on torso based and thus would become harder to hit unless very up close and personal (not good for Quasimodo).

Depends upon what is in the arm in the way of actuators. If the arm lacks lower actuators it cannot bend at the elbow, so to speak, so the weapons cannot be moved side to side. If the arm lacks the upper actuators, there can be no up and down movement to the arms. If it lacks both then the weapons are locked into a fixed firing location.

For arms that have both, no you still won't have perfect convergence. At a specific point you'll actually cross the weapons fire to hit the opposite side of the mech that you are aiming at.

[Praehotec8]

It's an interesting thought, and I can see where you're going with it,but I see two problems:

1.) Some mechs will have a much easier time than others due to hardpoint locations. Pinpoint damage will still be a problem. For example a 4 PPC stalker can fire 2 from each arm swivel slightly and fire the other two, with only a slight delay and reach the same pinpoint accuracy. Just seems like a big nerf to anything running tosro hardpoints.

2.) While I agree torso mounted weapons likely do not have the same free-range motion, it makes little sense that they would be mounted on mechs at such angle as to prevent reasonable aiming convergence (as how they are currently). The laser optics, barrel angles, etc. were likely mounted by engineers in such fashion as to give them a way to converge on center, even if they cannot swing wildly about as do the arms. The current game reflects this reasonably well, and your change would feel a bit artificial, IMO.

[3rdworld]

Heavy metal & victor approve of this change.

Wait, you mean you didn't change anything and only made many more mechs completely worthless?

[James The Fox Dixon]

Praehotec8, on 30 July 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

It's an interesting thought, and I can see where you're going with it,but I see two problems:

1.) Some mechs will have a much easier time than others due to hardpoint locations. Pinpoint damage will still be a problem. For example a 4 PPC stalker can fire 2 from each arm swivel slightly and fire the other two, with only a slight delay and reach the same pinpoint accuracy. Just seems like a big nerf to anything running tosro hardpoints.

2.) While I agree torso mounted weapons likely do not have the same free-range motion, it makes little sense that they would be mounted on mechs at such angle as to prevent reasonable aiming convergence (as how they are currently). The laser optics, barrel angles, etc. were likely mounted by engineers in such fashion as to give them a way to converge on center, even if they cannot swing wildly about as do the arms. The current game reflects this reasonably well, and your change would feel a bit artificial, IMO.

1. Stalkers lack lower arm actuators so they should only be able to move their weapon arms up and down. So no, there isn't any pin-point convergence of 4 PPCs.

2. There is no indication of any such thing in Battletech of what you're talking about. Weapons do not hit the same location either in lore or in TT. The current game mechanics do not reflect this.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 30 July 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

3rdworld, on 30 July 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Heavy metal & victor approve of this change.

Wait, you mean you didn't change anything and only made many more mechs completely worthless?

Actually, it changes a lot since there's no more high pin point alphas. Coupled with a punishing heat system that should take most of the One Click Wonders out of the current meta it would change the meta. I find your tears refreshing.

[Volomon]

Not really an addition to the topic but an opinion none the less.

I don't see anything wrong with high yielding alpha strikes. I mean if I see a guy with ridiculous weapons on one arm, I shoot it off. What was just a crazy AC/20 alpha strike just lost it's AC/20.

If the game was a vacuum and every player could rely on repeated using their alpha aka no heat, no damage, I would see a problem but as it is within moments those alphas are dropping down after components start to break down. There is an inherent flaw with this idea. It assumes nothing is sacrificed when going with a high firepower build that can alpha strike repeatedly. Usually this is drawn out in the ammo, which in turn causes explosions. Yes though they can throw on some cases it still blows up that chest cavity it was in. Tons of lasers, I've never seen anyone maintain every single laser on them while continuously firing. They have to stop at some point.

I think ultimately the argument, is that Alphas can take down lights quickly and easily depending on the build. That and if the light pilot screws up a lot. That is the risk for going with a light, there is also great rewards for an advanced player.

[3rdworld]

James The Fox Dixon, on 30 July 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Actually, it changes a lot since there's no more high pin point alphas. Coupled with a punishing heat system that should take most of the One Click Wonders out of the current meta it would change the meta. I find your tears refreshing.

The mechs in question have all their energy & ballistic hardpoints located in arms. Meaning they can continue using the Gauss + 2 ppcs unaffected by your limitations.

[James The Fox Dixon]

3rdworld, on 30 July 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

The mechs in question have all their energy & ballistic hardpoints located in arms. Meaning they can continue using the Gauss + 2 ppcs unaffected by your limitations.

As I've already stated, at some point there will be a crossing of fire so the weapons in the arms do not converge on the same point.

[MaddMaxx]

Mechs with Arms and Actuators would Rule. The rest would simply stand around and Drool. Sorry. Bad idea, again...

[FatBabyThompkins]

Volomon, on 30 July 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Not really an addition to the topic but an opinion none the less.

I don't see anything wrong with high yielding alpha strikes. I mean if I see a guy with ridiculous weapons on one arm, I shoot it off. What was just a crazy AC/20 alpha strike just lost it's AC/20.

If the game was a vacuum and every player could rely on repeated using their alpha aka no heat, no damage, I would see a problem but as it is within moments those alphas are dropping down after components start to break down. There is an inherent flaw with this idea. It assumes nothing is sacrificed when going with a high firepower build that can alpha strike repeatedly. Usually this is drawn out in the ammo, which in turn causes explosions. Yes though they can throw on some cases it still blows up that chest cavity it was in. Tons of lasers, I've never seen anyone maintain every single laser on them while continuously firing. They have to stop at some point.

I think ultimately the argument, is that Alphas can take down lights quickly and easily depending on the build. That and if the light pilot screws up a lot. That is the risk for going with a light, there is also great rewards for an advanced player.

I hear you. I would counter that it takes almost as long to core someone as destroy that component, and it is harder to hit at range. The light mech would be better suited to this venture, getting in close to cripple a system on a mech. The problem is those pin-point alphas are just as strong at 10m as they are at 1000m. A good twitch gamer can take out that light mech in one shot repeatably. This is only due to a combination of weapons hitting the same location. If it were just one PPC or one Gause, it would not be an issue. It takes many shots for the light, even the 6ML Jenner, to destroy that arm or LT/RT, or any weapon they have in there. It takes one good shot in the reverse. In fact, it takes almost as long for a light to destroy that one weapon as it does to core the mech, making the obvious choice to core it rather than disable it.

Getting one shot by PPC/Gause meta is veritably no-scoping. You're using a sniper platform in brawler fashion.

[Lightfoot]

You have two bouncing reticles to keep converged now and this has the most effect on large weapons. Although the 65 ton 2xAC20 mechs escape this.

Everyone mentions Gauss and 2 PPCs, but these weapons have different travel times so they lose convergence on a laterally moving target now. Why aren't you talking about 3xAC5's or 4xAC2'S? Those would have the pinpoint convergence you are worried about.

By removing convergence you would turn all grouped weapons into a massive shotgun blast. That would be the end of any Light mechs.

What you really want is overlapping hitboxes that make it harder to hit single sections. That's probably the best you could hope for since you won't be getting the massive unconverged shotgun to use on Light mechs.

Mechs fire grouped weapons. You can't touch this. It won't work.

Plus you are all going to freak when you face your first Clan mech. The currently nerfed IS mechs will just go pffft! And those nerfs will not have much effect on Clan tech which is lighter, smaller, and does way more damage per weapon. In past games the Inner Sphere's only tactic was to go heavy on grouped weapons and hope the Clanners went with fast and light.

Well, you have my sympathies. The solution was to just make the mechs tougher somehow, not re-write MechWarrior.

Edited by Lightfoot, 30 July 2013 - 08:02 AM.

[wolf74]

Think about this the Clan mech called the BlackHawk will have 6 Energy Hard point in EACH arm. AKA Fast Mech with 12 ER-Medium Lasers. It would be the end of almost all other Light & Medium mechs.

[Praehotec8]

James The Fox Dixon, on 30 July 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

1. Stalkers lack lower arm actuators so they should only be able to move their weapon arms up and down. So no, there isn't any pin-point convergence of 4 PPCs.

2. There is no indication of any such thing in Battletech of what you're talking about. Weapons do not hit the same location either in lore or in TT. The current game mechanics do not reflect this.

1.) No arm actuators doesn't change anything. You still need to be able to aim your weapons SOMEWHERE right? Mechs can still turn and torso twist. People would know where to aim to get right arm PPCs where they want, then where to aim to get left arm PPCs where they want. You're still just artificially enforcing chain firing basically. Sure, it prevents single-strike quad PPCs, etc..., but the current heat penalty is already starting to do that. I guess I don't see what makes this idea better, or even unique among the many cries for less convergence.

2.) I don't want to play TT. Apparently elite pilots in the 31st century couldn't manage to aim despite years of combat. It works out alright for TT because you aren't aiming yourself and you only see the effects, and can imagine mechs dodging and twisting, etc. Why would you bother to install weapons that can't ever hit the same spot? Penalties to reach convergence, heat penalties to convergence, etc. I can buy, but pure inability to aim my weapons? No, thank you. My solution to the game is to force joystick or keyboard only aiming. Removes the precision "twitch" enabled by the mouse =).

Again, I'm not trying to belittle your idea, it's interesting but I just don't think it really would improve the game much.

[Master Q]

Volomon, on 30 July 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Not really an addition to the topic but an opinion none the less.

I don't see anything wrong with high yielding alpha strikes. I mean if I see a guy with ridiculous weapons on one arm, I shoot it off. What was just a crazy AC/20 alpha strike just lost it's AC/20.

If the game was a vacuum and every player could rely on repeated using their alpha aka no heat, no damage, I would see a problem but as it is within moments those alphas are dropping down after components start to break down. There is an inherent flaw with this idea. It assumes nothing is sacrificed when going with a high firepower build that can alpha strike repeatedly. Usually this is drawn out in the ammo, which in turn causes explosions. Yes though they can throw on some cases it still blows up that chest cavity it was in. Tons of lasers, I've never seen anyone maintain every single laser on them while continuously firing. They have to stop at some point.

I think ultimately the argument, is that Alphas can take down lights quickly and easily depending on the build. That and if the light pilot screws up a lot. That is the risk for going with a light, there is also great rewards for an advanced player.

You're missing the point.

The root of Mechwarrior Online, the experience that is trying to be adapted/replicated, is tabletop Battletech. Will everything be functionally identical? Of course not. However, there are a few things that have already been done.

• LRM and SRM spreads, not to mention SSRM spreads, have been adjusted due to problems caused by exploits that let their damage mass into a single panel.
  
• Lasers were changed to beam weapons. Why? Because early alpha testing, not to mention observations from all previous Mechwarrior games (2/3/4/LL) showed that lasers as pinpoint instant-damage were overpowered and led to exploits that let multiple lasers mass damage into a single panel.
  
• Players laugh at the LBX-10. Why? Because unlike the regular AC/10, it spreads damage across multiple panels with no increase in damage output.

That is the reality of the game, currently. Every adjustment made to weapons that could be adjusted, has been adjusted to increase the chance of damage spreading across multiple panels.

The underlying reason for this is the way the targets are constructed. Multiple panels, each with its own armor allocation. Surgical strikes - "Oh if I see a guy with an AC20 I'll just use my own 4xERPPC to blow his arm off" are the antithesis of a brawler game.

Surgical strikes, the sort of "all weapons instantly converge precisely where your reticle is", gave us the following issues previously:

• Mechwarrior 2: Pulse Laser boats and the weirdness that is the 12-Machinegun Jumpjet Powered Rocket Daishi.
  
• Mechwarrior 3, aka "LegSniperWarrior", where thanks to the odd "leg blown off, you shut down and die now" mechanics people would actually strip armor from their CT before removing it from their fragile, fragile legs.
  
• Mechwarrior 4, where instant-damage from laserboats or PPC/Gaussboats was king. (MWO fixed the laser issue but the PPC/Gauss issue is where we currently sit).

I bring these up as lessons from the past. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat its mistakes, and the PGI crew needs to learn, fast, that the biggest mistake EVERY. SINGLE. MECHWARRIOR. GAME. WITHOUT. FAIL. has made is to let the "omg u hav 2 hav perfekt convergens wif 12 diffrent wepuns at wunce or els ur gam sux" brain donors have their way.

Look at the current meta as it has evolved. It is not "this weapon" or "that weapon" that individually needed a nerf. Paul's heatscale maneuvers were a matter of someone without perspective and in desperate need of some CLUE taking up his golden hammer and thinking every problem is a nail.

The current meta is about taking a large alpha and ensuring it all lands in one panel. That is how we got where we are today. The weapons that are abused, tweaked around, and pushed for are the ones that do insta-damage with pinpoint convergence. Abuse of ACs of various sorts, abuse of Gauss/PPC in large numbers, all flow from the fact that they are the way to achieve a "single panel alpha."

The solution is to make alphas not hit single panel, whatever that takes. Pinpoint, perfect, linked convergence has to go.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Praehotec8, on 30 July 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

1.) No arm actuators doesn't change anything. You still need to be able to aim your weapons SOMEWHERE right? Mechs can still turn and torso twist. People would know where to aim to get right arm PPCs where they want, then where to aim to get left arm PPCs where they want. You're still just artificially enforcing chain firing basically. Sure, it prevents single-strike quad PPCs, etc..., but the current heat penalty is already starting to do that. I guess I don't see what makes this idea better, or even unique among the many cries for less convergence.

2.) I don't want to play TT. Apparently elite pilots in the 31st century couldn't manage to aim despite years of combat. It works out alright for TT because you aren't aiming yourself and you only see the effects, and can imagine mechs dodging and twisting, etc. Why would you bother to install weapons that can't ever hit the same spot? Penalties to reach convergence, heat penalties to convergence, etc. I can buy, but pure inability to aim my weapons? No, thank you. My solution to the game is to force joystick or keyboard only aiming. Removes the precision "twitch" enabled by the mouse =).

Again, I'm not trying to belittle your idea, it's interesting but I just don't think it really would improve the game much.

1. If they torso twist then they move the aim spot for the other weapons mounted on the mech. This is to be used in conjunction with proper heat penalties like killing your pilot if you hit a high enough heat threshold.

2. Then you shouldn't be playing this game since it is a Battletech base game. The developers have to follow the laws of the world that they have licensed. This means that no weapon should hit the same location.

[Master Q]

Lightfoot, on 30 July 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

You have two bouncing reticles to keep converged now and this has the most effect on large weapons. Although the 65 ton 2xAC20 mechs escape this.

Everyone mentions Gauss and 2 PPCs, but these weapons have different travel times so they lose convergence on a laterally moving target now. Why aren't you talking about 3xAC5's or 4xAC2'S? Those would have the pinpoint convergence you are worried about.

By removing convergence you would turn all grouped weapons into a massive shotgun blast. That would be the end of any Light mechs.

What you really want is overlapping hitboxes that make it harder to hit single sections. That's probably the best you could hope for since you won't be getting the massive unconverged shotgun to use on Light mechs.

Mechs fire grouped weapons. You can't touch this. It won't work.

Plus you are all going to freak when you face your first Clan mech. The currently nerfed IS mechs will just go pffft! And those nerfs will not have much effect on Clan tech which is lighter, smaller, and does way more damage per weapon. In past games the Inner Sphere's only tactic was to go heavy on grouped weapons and hope the Clanners went with fast and light.

Well, you have my sympathies. The solution was to just make the mechs tougher somehow, not re-write MechWarrior.

You're joking right? Making mechs "tougher somehow" by fiddling with armor values DOES NOT CHANGE THE META. It's an across-the-board weapons nerf, and instead of making people more likely to use spread weapons actually makes it MORE necessary to put linked fire into a single panel through repeated pinpoint, frontloaded alpha strikes.
Also you say "these weapons have different travel times" regarding Gauss and PPC, but you DO realize that after the travel speed buffs (that they implemented because of HSR issues) it takes a mere fraction of a second for them to deal damage beyond the game's draw distance, right?

[3rdworld]

James The Fox Dixon, on 30 July 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

2. Then you shouldn't be playing this game since it is a Battletech base game. The developers have to follow the laws of the world that they have licensed. This means that no weapon should hit the same location.

Where do you gather this? If I rolled the correct number I could put a full alpha on the same location. Weapon A hitting the CT does not make it impossible for Weapon B to do so as well.

Moreover shot rolls had to do with averages to account for pilot skill. That is not needed in a First Person game.

[Khobai]

Increasing armor just makes armor punchthrough weapons even more important. Its not really a good solution.

The only viable solution for pinpoint alphas is to add a random cone of fire when firing multiple weapons.