19 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Everything. It would fix this game fast.

You know what is interesting... The solution to ALL our problems... Has been in the Battletech source all along. It is a simple thing called a Targeting Computer. The rules read something like this:

Quote

The Targeting Computer was introduced by Clan Mongoose in 2860.[1] Targeting Computers are sophisticated pieces of electronics that, unlike normal targeting systems, physically help MechWarriors target their opponents. Recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers are used to prevent normal weapon drift from factors such as recoil and movement while the computer accounts for atmospheric and other conditions to present an accurate "lead" on the target. This allows for more surgical precision of weapons fire, especially with naturally accurate systems, allowing for the user to hit specific parts on the target vehicle.

Further, they continue with the most important part:

Quote

The Targeting Computer can be used to help aim all direct fire weapons, including most energy and ballistic weapons. This results in a -1 to-hit modifier for all eligible weapons that tie in, or the ability to aim for a location that is not the head with a +3 to-hit penalty. Clan Targeting Computers weigh one ton and occupy one critical slot for every five tons of equipment they control (rounded up), while a comparable Inner Sphere version weighs one ton and occupies one critical slot for every four tons it controls (also rounded up). Total Warfare updated the rules to specify that Pulse Lasers (including Variable Speed Pulse Lasers and X-Pulse Lasers) as well as multi-shot firing autocannon cannot aim their fire, unless the affected autocannon are fired in single shot mode. In addition, an LB-X autocannon only receives the benefits if it is firing solid rounds instead of cluster ammunition.

Now, what that means, for example is, say, you have a 2x PPC, 2x ERPPC Stalker. That's 28 tons of equipment. So per the rules, the Targeting Computer (and components) would weigh 7 tons and take up 7 crits !!!!!!

That right there... That is a HUGE penalty. You want pinpoint aim? Great! You have to pay for it... bigtime. The Targeting Computer was not only the computer itself, but included things like servos and actuators to move and align the weapons.

I'm not sure but some things I've read said this tech wasn't available to the IS until 3062. Either way, THIS NEEDS TO BE REPRESENTED in this game. It'd go a LOOOOONG way towards fixing this steaming pile of poop.

No Targeting Computer... Tough! No pinpoint convergence! You want it... pay for it.

Case closed. PGI just needs to stick to the rules and implement them as they were written for some things. By not doing so, they end up breaking the game and then putting convoluted, obfuscated systems that make no sense and don't work better than breaking the game worse than it already is.

Vote for the Targeting Computer... Today!

Edit: I am NO WAY endorsing a Cone of Fire. Not one bit. Don't even think of accusing me of doing so. Cones of fire SUCK!

No Targeting Computer--weapons shoot straight ahead. No convergence at all. They shoot straight ahead and you can still hit what you're aiming at if you know their relative impact point--which is consistent barring terrain changes/movement changes to your mech's position on the X/Y/Z axes.

Edit: Furthermore... what about the ARMS?! The Arms already move. So they should be able to aim perfectly... right? Well, from far away, yes. Without a targeting computer they might take a little longer to achieve perfect convergence. But then, we're forgetting something important... The arms can only actuate so much. Some arms in this can move 10 degrees to each side. Others can move 20 or 30. While some (Stalker and Jenner) can't move to the side at all. Just up and down.

So wait... what's that mean? Well, up close, the arms would have to exceed their movement limits. If a mech is in your face, you can't exactly actuate a arm that is limited to 10 degrees to a 50 degree angle to line up a shot. But, with a targeting computer installed on the mech, the weapons on the arm itself could self-actuate even further to dramatically improve convergence beyond the movement ability of the arm.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 31 July 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Unbound Inferno]

I suggested it before for Group Fire, leaving Chain Fire as the default, since nobody wants to loose their precious precision, but I wouldn't mind. Finally weed out those that really have skill over a twitchy finger.

The idea I had was that the Targeting Computer for Direct-Fire weapons, Machine Gun Array for MGs (0.5 tons, 1 crit per 4 MGs) and use Artemis as the means to require the grouped fire.

Artemis is already a hefty price for LRMs, and most carry it - but it could weed out some of the boaters skimping in favor of ammo.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 30 July 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[Khobai]

Except IS doesnt get targeting computers until much later in the timeline.

[Unbound Inferno]

Khobai, on 30 July 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

Except IS doesnt get targeting computers until much later in the timeline.

Except right now every mech gets it free...

[Mister Blastman]

Right, two more years possibly. I'd be willing to let that slide to help balance things versus the clans as long as the penalties are kept in the game.

[Corvus Antaka]

whats the problem that needs fixing?

[Unbound Inferno]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 July 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

whats the problem that needs fixing?

Funny question, I thought it was obvious.

PPC/Gauss/AC20 alphastrikes to one single section all the time.

The OP is suggesting to remove convergence - or heavily nerf it? - unless you have a Targeting Computer for Direct Fire weapons.

[Nauht]

No to a random cone right off the bat. As I stated in the other thread Blastman, this is essentially a fps. It would be frustrating for new fps'ers coming from other fps to then deal with their shots with direct fire weapons being inaccurate. I know I'd get pissed. New players would be scratching their heads as to why shots don't land where they're aiming.

Put in the concepts that most fps'ers know about now - like the expanding xhairs in BF which only goes pinpoint when you're stationary and crouching, or the system used in Arma. The mass market has already accepted this is bow it should be.

[Mister Blastman]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 July 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

whats the problem that needs fixing?

The problem is pin-point convergence like we have now with no cost to the Mech in terms of equipment and space. Per the TT rules, weapons by themselves do not have the ability to actuate and servo themselves into a perfect aiming trajectory. They need a Targeting Computer.

This pin-point convergence is and has been the problem since closed beta.

Granted the heat system is messed up, we should have 2.0 DHS and a 30 pt scale with penalties... convergence is why we see PPCs+Gauss or AC/40 so popular... the ability to put all damage on one spot with one click versus lasers that you have to hold on target for a duration of time or SRMs which you have to lead. PPCs require little skill to aim with.

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

No to a random cone right off the bat.

I have never, ever endorsed a cone of fire. Not once anywhere and I won't start by doing it here. My thread never mentions one.

See, without a targeting computer... well, weapons just... go straight ahead--or the arm weapons take quite a while to be lined up. Sure the HGN will still be an issue--so something will need to be done to balance that chassis as it'd immediately become the sniping platform of choice. Putting PPCs at full heat would go a long way towards that with a reduction of the heat scale.

Cone of fire is bad. Please don't ever associate it with my namesake.

[Master Q]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

No to a random cone right off the bat. As I stated in the other thread Blastman, this is essentially a fps. It would be frustrating for new fps'ers coming from other fps to then deal with their shots with direct fire weapons being inaccurate. I know I'd get pissed. New players would be scratching their heads as to why shots don't land where they're aiming.

Put in the concepts that most fps'ers know about now - like the expanding xhairs in BF which only goes pinpoint when you're stationary and crouching, or the system used in Arma. The mass market has already accepted this is bow it should be.

Because no FPS has ever implemented cone of fire or reticle sway before.

Oh wait.

Except for the aimbot-abusing dorks who play Quake, they ALL have at some point.

[FatBabyThompkins]

I endorse this. However, realistically, this likely will not happen. Something to do with netcode/HSR/blah blah blah. It would seem as simple as get torso vector. Offset X,Y (to where weapon is located at on mech) orthogonal to torso plane. Create ray, detect collision for laser, or however the engine handles particle collision for bullets.

The question becomes, how do you support arms? They would have the capability to converge with actuators already in them. Do they just fire forwards all the time? How about a time based convergence that achieves pinpoint accuracy in 3-5 seconds (targeting computers speed up this process to 1.5-2 seconds). Although, firing straight still would be interesting. Aim left, fire right arm, aim right, fire left arm.

[MaddMaxx]

Unbound Inferno, on 30 July 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Funny question, I thought it was obvious.

PPC/Gauss/AC20 alphastrikes to one single section all the time.

The OP is suggesting to remove convergence - or heavily nerf it? - unless you have a Targeting Computer for Direct Fire weapons.

As an advocate of the TC for a long time, I would read the OP as stating. "You want Group Fire?" fine. But you will be required to load a TC component for each direct fire weapon you wish to be grouped together. A fair trade off indeed.

Sadly 3062 is a long ways off.

[IIIuminaughty]

Headshot headshot headshot headshot headshot headshot headshot

[MaddMaxx]

Nauht, on 30 July 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

No to a random cone right off the bat. As I stated in the other thread Blastman, this is essentially a fps. It would be frustrating for new fps'ers coming from other fps to then deal with their shots with direct fire weapons being inaccurate. I know I'd get pissed. New players would be scratching their heads as to why shots don't land where they're aiming.

Put in the concepts that most fps'ers know about now - like the expanding xhairs in BF which only goes pinpoint when you're stationary and crouching, or the system used in Arma. The mass market has already accepted this is bow it should be.

Sadly the Mass market doesn't play MechWarrior. That is why those who come in here from the "other" FPS's seem to want to change this to match what they are used to instead of playing MWO as it is intended.

P.S. The Heat Penalties will help.

P.S.S. How small would the "Alpha Strike" value have to be restricted to to actually appease those who see it as a problem? 5, maybe 10 points ffs?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 31 July 2013 - 06:18 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

FatBabyThompkins, on 31 July 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

I endorse this. However, realistically, this likely will not happen. Something to do with netcode/HSR/blah blah blah. It would seem as simple as get torso vector. Offset X,Y (to where weapon is located at on mech) orthogonal to torso plane. Create ray, detect collision for laser, or however the engine handles particle collision for bullets.

The question becomes, how do you support arms? They would have the capability to converge with actuators already in them. Do they just fire forwards all the time? How about a time based convergence that achieves pinpoint accuracy in 3-5 seconds (targeting computers speed up this process to 1.5-2 seconds). Although, firing straight still would be interesting. Aim left, fire right arm, aim right, fire left arm.

I'd say the arms could still actuate and aim--it'd just take them longer to achieve perfect convergence without the computer. Firing straight without one would be very interesting and up the skill requirement.

I look at it this way... Mechwarrior won't ever be mass-market like FPS games unless it sacrifices everything we love. So why bother trying to cater to them? Let's have the Mech game we all have wanted.

[Marmon Rzohr]

MWO is a sim. Right now it's a sim without some important elements.

MWO should have crosshair movement (at least while moving, look how JJs work now). At least recoil for kinetic weapons. Hitting stuff is too easy with some weapons as it is...

Look at the PPC. They can nerf it all they want, it's still going to be the best energy weapon at range. Why ? Because lasers require tracking and very fine skill to pinpoint a specific part at range. PPCs compared to that can simply be pointed and fired in a fraction of a second, no need to expose yourself for the beam duration or anything.... and they're just as pinpoint accurate.

The main supposed advantage of the laser (a pure thermal weapon) over kinetic or hybrid kinetic/thermal weapons (PPCs) is the lack of recoil which disturbs the shot and perfect accuracy since there is no physical projectile that can change course on route to target under the influence of vaiable air pressure, gravity etc.

I'm not for big changes. Aiming stays as perfect as it is. But if you're standing still long enough to aim. (you know, like you would do in any other FPS if you're trying to snipe...). Also give the weapons some recoil. That way, there are more skills to hone that pointing and clicking, and when the game gets to stuff like Advanced Targeting Computers they'll have a point.

I strongly feel that a bit more realism is the way to go...

Look at the poptart/JJ nerf. If they just made arbitrary changes to numbers (extra heat from JJs, more weight) it would just complicate things to no end. They made them feel more real. And removed a frustrating gameplay element that was adding little. The same thing is with this peek-and-shoot gameplay.

If it was harder to aim or land shots (you know like it's supposed to be), snipers would have to position better and behave in a realistic way, scattering weapons like the LBX would make sense since they would guaratee hits in fast paced situations, as would the LRM spotting mechanics. As it is now, both are inferior to perfectly accurate direct fire weapons IN ALL SITUATIONS. And that not balance

Also brawling would make a bit more sense.

[Mister Blastman]

Bump for first post with an additional inclusion of what to do about the arms.

[General Taskeen]

Targeting Computer is a bonus piece of equipment though.

It allows highly accurate placement of shots on moving targets and allows targeting of the actual sections of a Mech.

This is how it works in MW3:



You target a component and a "lead pipper" appears on that component (for instance the HD - Cockpit section), so the lead pipper is adjusting showing you exactly where you aim depending on the movement of the target and calculating the projectile speed of your weapon and your aim point.


I get what people mean though, as it would tie in with the whole discussion of "pin point" aim as there is no 'simulated' affect of a Mech's "basic" targeting computer like the original Mech Warrior 5 concept video.

[Mister Blastman]

Bump.

Mechwarrior 3 did have a good implementation of it among many things. The convergence problem we have now, though, started with MW 3. It wasn't an issue in MW 2 because all weapons had travel time including lasers.

[MrJolly]

Homeless Bill's suggestion (http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/ ) solves the problem better without turning every stock build even crappier than they already are. Also it solves stuff like 3 ppc in the same compartment.