17 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

My proposal (the same a lot of other have and I think its the best):

You have two options. The first option is to play with fixed convergence.
You set a fixed convergence for every weapon in your mechlab. For example if you set 600m for both AC20 on your jägermech they will do 40 pinpoint damage at exactly 600m to the point you are aiming on with your crosshair.
If your enemy is closer (say 100meters) they can't hit the same spot but probably hit both side torsos of the enemy.

However you can set your convergence to auto on all weapons in the mechlab, which is the second option.
It means your weapons will auto-converge to the point you are aiming at with your crosshair.
However they need time to converge (for example a laser can converge very fast, eg. 0.2 seconds since it only has to move some lenses while a gauss cannon needs up to 1 second to converge). When all weapons are pointing at the same spot, your crosshar turns green and you can do pinpoint damage.

This is all for side-torso weapons, arm-mounted weapons don't converge at all and are pointing straigt forward and you have to move your mouse like always and point them where you want to shoot, if they have all actuators.

With this method you don't need any ghost heatscale, still can maintain pinpoint alphas if you have skill and don't need any ghost desyncing either. You are also differentiating mechs more, making them more unique since some have arm actuators and some don't. You finally have a real reason for actuators to be in the game. Mechs like the dragon and awesome would gain from this, too since both have moveable arms.
it effing solves so much.

[Syllogy]

Edited by Syllogy, 14 August 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[BlackWidow]

Syllogy, on 14 August 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Never considered that. (nice chart, BTW)

Snap! Woo hoo! Dy-syncing and heat penalties comin' at ya!

Edited by BlackWidow, 14 August 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Syllogy]

BlackWidow, on 14 August 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Never considered that. (nice chart, BTW)

Snap! Woo hoo! Dy-syncing and heat penalties comin' at ya!

I can't take credit for it. Someone else made it, I would give credit if I know who, but it was posted on imgur.

[TexAce]

Syllogy, on 14 August 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

I guess I'm supposed to understand that?

Autocannons have to lead targets because you know, they are autocannons and don't travel at speed of light. Besides arm weapons don't (should not) have any automatic convergence at all, you are doing the convergence on your own with your mouse. If you set the convergence to auto you have to live with that, if you fix your convergence this doesnt matter at all.

Edited by TexAss, 14 August 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[Syllogy]

TexAss, on 14 August 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

I guess I'm supposed to understand that? Autocannons have to lead targets because you know, they are autocannons and don't travel at speed of light. Besides arm weapons don't (should not) have any convergence at all.

Short story:

Leading a target causes your weapons to converge on a point much further than the distance to the target, causing the shots to be more spread out when they pass near the target (or hit the target.)

This means that a moving target will rarely receive pinpoint damage from weapons that are not mounted on the same location.

The only case where this is not true is with slow moving, large targets at relatively close range.

Edited by Syllogy, 14 August 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[TexAce]

Syllogy, on 14 August 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Short story:

Leading a target causes your weapons to converge on a point much further than the distance to the target.

This means that a moving target will rarely receive pinpoint damage from weapons that are not mounted on the same location.

The only case where this is not true is with slow moving, large targets at relatively close range.

Wrong, if you would have read my idea you would have understood that a fixed convergence does not have this problems. If you mount your ACs and PPCs in your arms, no problem anyway. If you mount them on your torso, just set the convergence for them to 2.000m or something (meaning they shoot straight forward) and you can lead without any worries.

Edited by TexAss, 14 August 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Syllogy]

TexAss, on 14 August 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Wrong, if you would have read my idea you would have understood that a fixed convergence does not have this problems. If you mount your ACs and PPCs in your arms, no problem anyway. If you mount them on your torso, just set the convergence for them to 2.000m or something (meaning they shoot straight forward) and you can lead without any worries.

You're right, and it would change the way convergence works, but that doesn't mean it will be better, and would probably be more frustrating.

Refer to the diagram for explanation.

The Left side shows it Convergence works with Stationary Targets. (Pro Tip: Move.)

The Right side shows how convergence never gives you pinpoint accuracy against a moving target. (Top to bottom is the same shot at different time frames)

Edited by Syllogy, 14 August 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Trigun]

He is simply talking about Arm mounted weapons currently suffer for the issue his picture pointed out very well. A dragon with lasers in one arm and a ballistic in another is severely gimped if he tries to fire both. It isnt as simply as calculate lead time of the fast object and fire. You have to take into account the effect of the arm convergence of "aiming" at an object in the distance while also considering lead time for the object. AKA someone going 120kph wont have the same lead to hit the target because the background is dynamically changing making your aim off.

[TexAce]

Trigun, on 14 August 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

He is simply talking about Arm mounted weapons currently suffer for the issue his picture pointed out very well. A dragon with lasers in one arm and a ballistic in another is severely gimped if he tries to fire both. It isnt as simply as calculate lead time of the fast object and fire. You have to take into account the effect of the arm convergence of "aiming" at an object in the distance while also considering lead time for the object. AKA someone going 120kph wont have the same lead to hit the target because the background is dynamically changing making your aim off.

This is still no reason why we shouldn't do it like I proposed.

If you have two different ACs or a laser and an AC in your arms you have to live with different traveling speeds. Same as now. And again, there is NO convergence in arms, if you have lower arm actuators you shoot where you aim, and you only have to lead for travelling time.
If you don't have lower arm actuators than just fix both arm weapons to the same distance in the mechlab like I proposed.

Edited by TexAss, 14 August 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Antony Weiner]

Gentlemen, chill.

The solution to the convergence issue is to have the ability to toggle between two convergence modes: converge on target, converge on point of aim. <On target> means that your weapons will automatically converge at the distance that the targeted enemy mech ® is away from you, regardless of where you are actually aiming. Switch the convergence mode to <on poa>, and you have what we have now.

[TexAce]

Why the hell was this moved to K-Town??

[Antony Weiner]

TexAss, on 14 August 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Why the hell was this moved to K-Town??

Probably because of me

[Dakkath]

TexAss, on 14 August 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Why the hell was this moved to K-Town??

Because of me, but by accident. I had mixed this and a couple of other threads into some I moved to K-Town. My apologies.
This however is a feature suggestion and I have moved it here.

[Belorion]

This would be fine as a change for convergence. If the time to focus is reasonably quick. A solution to Syllogy's problem would be to auto converge to the distance of your locked on target. This would also let scouts help you converge your weapon...


However, and this is a big however... it will not address the problem you are trying to address, and there will be just as many detractors saying this was a terrible solution, and is as bad as "ghost heat".

Because at some point those weapons will converge, and you will at that point have an instant, pinpoint high alpha shot.

[Shae Starfyre]

I still don't get it!!!!!

We already have convergence! I see it every time I play.... my arms have to move to my center or whatever, or I have a slower torso twist speed.

If you have not locked your arms, they slowly converge, sometimes quicker sometimes not depending on the engine or quirk of the Mech, but they are converging already!

Also, if this is about distance, I think the way the system works is fine as is, it causes havoc on trying to do the pin-point on the fly.

If you stand still or peak out from cover, and they are long range, you are more susceptible to their convergence time as it is smaller, because they do not have to move much.


If you peak over a ridge going lateral to their position, they have to move slightly to hit you; 2 things will happen.

1.) They have to lead a little, meaning less convergence, less chance that all damage hits the same spot.
2.) depending on arm lock, they are not quick enough to get the right bead on you or your torso hasn't converged yet to your arms or via verse, whatever is first.

I can't wrap my head around why so many people think it is convergence, seems more like pilot error to me.

Edited by Aphoticus, 14 August 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[TexAce]

Aphoticus, on 14 August 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

I still don't get it!!!!!

We already have convergence! I see it every time I play.... my arms have to move to my center or whatever, or I have a slower torso twist speed.

If you have not locked your arms, they slowly converge, sometimes quicker sometimes not depending on the engine or quirk of the Mech, but they are converging already!

Also, if this is about distance, I think the way the system works is fine as is, it causes havoc on trying to do the pin-point on the fly.

If you stand still or peak out from cover, and they are long range, you are more susceptible to their convergence time as it is smaller, because they do not have to move much.


If you peak over a ridge going lateral to their position, they have to move slightly to hit you; 2 things will happen.

1.) They have to lead a little, meaning less convergence, less chance that all damage hits the same spot.
2.) depending on arm lock, they are not quick enough to get the right bead on you or your torso hasn't converged yet to your arms or via verse, whatever is first.

I can't wrap my head around why so many people think it is convergence, seems more like pilot error to me.

having pin point instant convergence with a weird ghost heatscale system to counter is a pilot error? don't think so

[Firewuff]

Convergence already takes time. if you lead there are ways around that particularly having AC's in your arms and then you can get convergence right, either way its not a big deal.

I still want to see torso weapons not converge to help the high alpha pinpoint isse and mechs with arm actuators converg more quickly. So Ravens, Cats, Jenners etc Stalkers converge more slowly and are limited to a min range of convergence than Hunchbacks for example. Those mechs have the advantage of high mounted weapons but suffer at point blank range. Hunchback 4-P with 6 laser hard points in the shoulder wont do pinpoint damage but spread over 1-2 sections because of no torso convergance. But a Phract with AC's in the arms can converge but the weapons are more vulnerable... its all more balanced,