23 replies to this topic

[c0nk3r]

Hi,

just found an excellent video about this topic



The actual video is about ARMA/DayZ, but the same idea can be applied to MWO.
The basic problem is: with 3rd person view a player can stay complete invisible behind cover and at the same time see his enemies without putting himself in danger. In PvP it's like a wallhack. And there is already enough camping in this game... it would just get worse.

The devs idea to reduce new players frustration by adding 3rd person view is wrong from the begin with. It would work in a single player game, in multiplayer PvP it won't.

A Game Replay Mode may be the most needed game feature right now, because (new) players need to be able to see their mistakes in order to avoid them. I too get often enough horribly murdered without being able to see what's actually happened. After a match I would like to be able to see in a replay where I screwed up.

Don't get me wrong, I like to have a 3rd person view be available in Testing Grounds and a Game Replay Mode. But don't make it fixed, a WoW esque free rotatable/zoomable camera would be nice.

[Lucian Nostra]

It's true what he says, it cheapens the game and it takes away the immersion of being a mech pilot.

I know people will come in here talking all about well MWO 3pv has the blinky camera drone.. so what? you still didn't look over the hill to see it's an ambush you got to duck out of that with no risk to yourself by floating the drone.

Takes away from the game and adds nothing of value, always a bad trade in real life and game play

[SirLANsalot]

blinky drone lets you (enemy) know that someone is there, ya he cant be shot at, but you now know something is behind that corner or hill. Its FAR better then having NOTHING at all, besides, that 3PV is bad for combat and is HORRID in that way. Having it hot swappable is the best way to do it so no one is stuck in one mode or the other. You can use 3P to move around the map, admire your mech while marching to the front lines. When battle starts you will swap to 1P to do actual combat as it allows you to aim better and maneuver your arms.

3P has arm lock, 1P can, but doesn't force you to have it. This means its very bad for assaults in combat, and for most lights even as its all based on your torso twisting speed.


TL;DR 3P is fine for those who wanted it, but it provides no advantages over 1P in COMBAT (which is the CORE of this game). If you are still stuck on the fact that 3P is here and this is a 1P only game bla bla bla bla garbage.....then we will not miss you and don't let the mechbay doors hit you on the way out.

[c0nk3r]

SirLANsalot, on 20 August 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

blinky drone lets you (enemy) know that someone is there, ya he cant be shot at, but you now know something is behind that corner or hill. Its FAR better then having NOTHING at all, besides, that 3PV is bad for combat and is HORRID in that way. Having it hot swappable is the best way to do it so no one is stuck in one mode or the other. You can use 3P to move around the map, admire your mech while marching to the front lines. When battle starts you will swap to 1P to do actual combat as it allows you to aim better and maneuver your arms.

3P has arm lock, 1P can, but doesn't force you to have it. This means its very bad for assaults in combat, and for most lights even as its all based on your torso twisting speed.


TL;DR 3P is fine for those who wanted it, but it provides no advantages over 1P in COMBAT (which is the CORE of this game). If you are still stuck on the fact that 3P is here and this is a 1P only game bla bla bla bla garbage.....then we will not miss you and don't let the mechbay doors hit you on the way out.

Your Ignorance Is Truly Legendary Sir

I was hoping that at least some people would watch the video and see how players would get owned without a chance to respond because they were spotted around corner or above wall etc.

In a combat the knowledge alone where the enemy is, where he looks, what he does is the most powerful advantage you can have. If you don't understand such simple matter, you have my pity...

With 3P you get basically awarded for not doing or not risking anything.

[iraSaint]

Lucian Nostra, on 20 August 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Takes away from the game and adds nothing of value, always a bad trade in real life and game play

I disagree wholeheartedly.
Trying to get my brother into MWO, and he cannot pilot mechs at all. There is not alot of first person simulator that are like this that he has any time playing. It is totally new to him. Adding 3rd person is great because there is no question as to what direction the legs are moving in regards to the torso and now he can play just fine. I challenge people that think that third person is an unfair advantage to think logically.

1. It is easier for new people to pilot mechs. (the argument that there is training grounds, i never used training grounds because its a video game and i just wanted to jump right in, and many of the younger generation is like this as well.) This allows a growing fanbase of younger people, which I believe is what this game needs. How many people aged 30-40 are willing to play a game professionally like Starcraft, League of Legends, Halo 4, or CoD?

2. I wanted 3rd person just to look at my mechs. Call me weird but I have a fascination for my mechs and as i put them together in the mech lab I love to see their traits on the battlefield. I cant tell you how many mechs I hated but after putting in different weapons on them and colors I really grew fond of them. 3rd person gives me time to look at my mechs on the march to the battlefield. This reason alone makes me happy for 3rd person.

3. The cheating aspect. People cannot stand that there is an advantage when using 3rd person to see around corners based on the principle.
Ask yourself this question. If a 3rd person drone was available in table top or canon, would this bother you? If your answer is no, because it is canon or table top and that is how the game should be played because it is how it was 'supposed' to be played based on the past, consider this: Why would canon or table top ever talk about a third person drone? How could the writers foresee it being implemented into a video game as advanced as MWO?
If your response is i never played table top or read books or whatever, i just feel like its cheating. This game takes place over 1,000 years in the future. You are piloting a 100 ton robot that has LASERS on it for crying out loud. We use drones in the 2013 to kill people now and to spy on ourselves. Why is it so hard understand that it makes perfect sense for 3rd person view drone to be used in the future?

SOLUTION
Have a different game-type for ranked play called hardcore mode or whatever. Remove 3rd person view and all-chat for a start. If your trying out new guns and colors or just practicing play unranked. If you are into this game hardcore than play hardcore ranked mode.

I cannot believe that negative attitude that shrouds many people on these forums. I feel that PGI is doing a great job at taking this game to the next level. This game is hardly recognizable from a year ago. Yet the negativity persists. Every patch there is game-play changes weapon balance. Please just give PGI some credit for at least TRYING to give us a mech game that is good. This game is not a table top game and I am so glad that it is not. It is a video game. Today's video game market is very cut-throat. PGI needs to get new players into this game and I am so glad they are realizing it, otherwise this game will just die like the ones before it and then what will we have to b*tch about? Enjoy the game for what it is, and understand what it has to go through. If you want to play table top so bad go play table top and not this video game.

Edit: Oh and Lucian I am not saying you are a table top player and i do not hate table top players. I am just lumping the negative vibes on this forum and I am not directing this rant at you or attacking you in anyway. This is just my rant for the day.

Edited by iraSaint, 20 August 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[c0nk3r]

iraSaint, on 20 August 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

I disagree wholeheartedly.
Trying to get my brother into MWO, and he cannot pilot mechs at all. There is not alot of first person simulator that are like this that he has any time playing. It is totally new to him. Adding 3rd person is great because there is no question as to what direction the legs are moving in regards to the torso and now he can play just fine. I challenge people that think that third person is an unfair advantage to think logically.

1. It is easier for new people to pilot mechs. (the argument that there is training grounds, i never used training grounds because its a video game and i just wanted to jump right in, and many of the younger generation is like this as well.) This allows a growing fanbase of younger people, which I believe is what this game needs. How many people aged 30-40 are willing to play a game professionally like Starcraft, League of Legends, Halo 4, or CoD?

2. I wanted 3rd person just to look at my mechs. Call me weird but I have a fascination for my mechs and as i put them together in the mech lab I love to see their traits on the battlefield. I cant tell you how many mechs I hated but after putting in different weapons on them and colors I really grew fond of them. 3rd person gives me time to look at my mechs on the march to the battlefield. This reason alone makes me happy for 3rd person.

3. The cheating aspect. People cannot stand that there is an advantage when using 3rd person to see around corners based on the principle.
Ask yourself this question. If a 3rd person drone was available in table top or canon, would this bother you? If your answer is no, because it is canon or table top and that is how the game should be played because it is how it was 'supposed' to be played based on the past, consider this: Why would canon or table top ever talk about a third person drone? How could the writers foresee it being implemented into a video game as advanced as MWO?
If your response is i never played table top or read books or whatever, i just feel like its cheating. This game takes place over 1,000 years in the future. You are piloting a 100 ton robot that has LASERS on it for crying out loud. We use drones in the 2013 to kill people now and to spy on ourselves. Why is it so hard understand that it makes perfect sense for 3rd person view drone to be used in the future?

SOLUTION
Have a different game-type for ranked play called hardcore mode or whatever. Remove 3rd person view and all-chat for a start. If your trying out new guns and colors or just practicing play unranked. If you are into this game hardcore than play hardcore ranked mode.

I cannot believe that negative attitude that shrouds many people on these forums. I feel that PGI is doing a great job at taking this game to the next level. This game is hardly recognizable from a year ago. Yet the negativity persists. Every patch there is game-play changes weapon balance. Please just give PGI some credit for at least TRYING to give us a mech game that is good. This game is not a table top game and I am so glad that it is not. It is a video game. Today's video game market is very cut-throat. PGI needs to get new players into this game and I am so glad they are realizing it, otherwise this game will just die like the ones before it and then what will we have to b*tch about? Enjoy the game for what it is, and understand what it has to go through. If you want to play table top so bad go play table top and not this video game.

Edit: Oh and Lucian I am not saying you are a table top player and i do not hate table top players. I am just lumping the negative vibes on this forum and I am not directing this rant at you or attacking you in anyway. This is just my rant for the day.

A few comments:

> Trying to get my brother into MWO, and he cannot pilot mechs at all.

If you can pilot a mech - teach him. If he still cannot play this game, maybe he should try some other, much easier game, like "www.playhawken.com"

>1. It is easier for new people to pilot mechs.

Basically any skill requirement should be removed from this game? Quick fun for everyone?
"i just wanted to jump right in" - OMFG... are you an old Mech Assault fan? (shame on me: still have an old xbox with this game...)
Games where you have nothing to learn and can just "jump right in" are usually getting boring very fast. Usually you "jump right out" as fast as you "jump in"

>2. I wanted 3rd person just to look at my mechs.

Did you actually read the first post? Would you stare on your mech's pretty camo pattern in the middle of a battle? Wouldn't it be enough to be able to see your mach in MechLab/TestingGrounds and a Game Replay Mode?

>3. The cheating aspect.

US murdering random dudes by bombing with drones (aka. "terrorize the terrorists") shouldn't be an excuse to cheat.

> This game takes place over 1,000 years in the future. You are piloting a 100 ton robot that has LASERS on it for crying out loud.

By your logic there wouldn't be a you as pilot in the mech - just an AI...

>I cannot believe that negative attitude that shrouds many people on these forums.

Do you interpret "having different opinion from your own" as "negative attitude"?

Edited by c0nk3r, 20 August 2013 - 11:24 PM.

[SirLANsalot]

great job at MISSING the point of his post noob c0nk3r alt account.

[Wolfways]

I guess i can shelve my Raven permanently. There'll be no real scouting in MWO now.

@IraSaint: Could you ask your brother a question for me please? How is seeing the mechs legs easier than looking at an arrow on the minimap?
I'm not joking, or being sarcastic. I'd really like to know because i don't understand it.
I got my wife (who has never played any kind of fps) playing MWO and the first problem she had was with which way her legs were pointing. I explained the arrow on the minimap and she never had a problem with movement again.

[AlexEss]

This is all good and well.. Apart from the fact that this is not ARMAS. Make a vid about MWO with MWO specific scenarios and we can talk.

[c0nk3r]

AlexEss, on 21 August 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

This is all good and well.. Apart from the fact that this is not ARMAS. Make a vid about MWO with MWO specific scenarios and we can talk.

Is that your reasoning? Just because it's not the same game?

Use your imagination to replace infantry and or tanks in ARMA video with Mechs of your choice...
(You may not have played ARMA, but it's very similar to MWO gameplay principle, there is even "torso twist" as infantryman)

If your imagination fails you then go to

http://mwomercs.com/...ntage-with-3pv/

and look at screenshot in first post...

[Kitane]

The attempt to make 3rd person view made the experience for new players a lot worse, imho.

Positives:
Yes, they can see their legs now

Negatives:
Their aiming is broken, unstable, wobbly and absolutely unintuitive thanks to raytraced aiming point.
They can't turn arm lock off even for a moment
No minimap means a much worse situational awareness.

They can see their legs, but they can't aim and they don't know where are enemies and teammates. And on top of that they have a blinking mark of Newbie hanging in air above them.

Brilliant job, PGI. You just made your new player experience much much worse than before.

[Marmon Rzohr]

+1

It cheapens scouting.
It doesn't let you see the legs and regulate movement properly in anything but a light.
..while removing the minimap and the clear indication of where your legs/torso are pointing.
It makes aiming atrociously frustrating.
It looks bad.

Add alll this up and you have a mechanic in which new players will not get much help, will get pissed off by seemingly buggy aiming, competitive players will exploit it as much as they can for bugs and risk free scouting, and game reviewers will tear it up when it goes live saying "the default 3rd person mode makes percise aiming impossible and looks like excrement". They will. Bad ratings on game review sites are VERY dertimental to player interest. Especially if bugs and imbalance are mentioned.

Suggested solution:
Add 3PV with a better camera angle but make it TRIAL MECH ONLY ! You still get the training in real combat, no abusing by serious players (trials are mostly unusable in serious play), better aesthetics, less criticism, pleased community and players have to start out with trial any way !!

Original idea credit:
http://mwomercs.com/...to-trial-mechs/

[c0nk3r]

Marmon Rzohr, on 21 August 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

+1

It cheapens scouting.
It doesn't let you see the legs and regulate movement properly in anything but a light.
..while removing the minimap and the clear indication of where your legs/torso are pointing.
It makes aiming atrociously frustrating.
It looks bad.

Add alll this up and you have a mechanic in which new players will not get much help, will get pissed off by seemingly buggy aiming, competitive players will exploit it as much as they can for bugs and risk free scouting, and game reviewers will tear it up when it goes live saying "the default 3rd person mode makes percise aiming impossible and looks like excrement". They will. Bad ratings on game review sites are VERY dertimental to player interest. Especially if bugs and imbalance are mentioned.

Suggested solution:
Add 3PV with a better camera angle but make it TRIAL MECH ONLY ! You still get the training in real combat, no abusing by serious players (trials are mostly unusable in serious play), better aesthetics, less criticism, pleased community and players have to start out with trial any way !!

Original idea credit:
http://mwomercs.com/...to-trial-mechs/

> It cheapens scouting.

Not just cheapens, scouting becomes mostly useless... what role do light mechs have without scouting?
(don't say cap stuff, it's boring )

> Suggested solution: TRIAL MECH ONLY

Will not fix anything: while being in trial mech you can still easily inform your team about your enemy
while being perfectly covered and invisible for enemy. 3P just doesn't work in PvP, because you can see things around corners / over the top, while not being seen by your enemies.

[-Natural Selection-]

c0nk3r, on 20 August 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

A few comments:

US murdering random dudes by bombing with drones (aka. "terrorize the terrorists") shouldn't be an excuse to cheat.

>I cannot believe that negative attitude that shrouds many people on these forums.

Really? Do you really want to go there? I am X-military.. Trust me, I never put a bullet into anyone that wasnt trying to put one into me. DO NOT bring up BS like that in a game forum.

[Jetfire]

The blinky drone needs to be destructible and the time to switch modes needs to be longer. That would be balance.

Current the drone is invincible, so you need only give away your position, not put yourself in any real danger to gather a massive amount of tactical data. You can see more in 3PV than 1PV so it is defacto imba and the steps to counter that imba are not sufficient enough. If the drone gave away your position to missile locks as well, you would really have put 3PV where it should be, a very nice training tool for the training grounds and an occasional tactical tool on the battleground with real risk.

Additionally I have a real problem with the fact 3PV doesn't let me see any of my mechs legs so far as I can tell. It is actually harder to pilot. It would seem new players would be served far better by a tutorial, just rip the one from MW2, it can't be that hard.

I really want to see this game succeed and this 3PV attempt just reeks of half butted-ness.

[c0nk3r]

Dozier, on 21 August 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Really? Do you really want to go there? I am X-military.. Trust me, I never put a bullet into anyone that wasnt trying to put one into me. DO NOT bring up BS like that in a game forum.

It began with:

> iraSaint wrote:
> ... "We use drones in the 2013 to kill people now and to spy on ourselves." ...

I'm not the one who started it, but I wanted to explain my opinion. If you don't like it, you're free to ignore it.

[Redburn]

Take the code for this "3PV", rename it to "UAV", make it a "Mech Module", charge 4 Million XP and another 2 Million GXP "Pilot Skill" to use it. Make it work for 1 time only, with 5 minutes duration, and where you have remain stationary for 5 minutes to use it, Disable weapons during its use. Make it available for Scout and Command Mechs only. Make it destructable (I like shooting clay birds.... "Pull")

Or,

Limit it to Training/Testing Grounds.

As much as a year ago, and many, many, many times since then, we have had this discussion. The majority, including PGI, stated we didn't want this "abomination" in MWO....ever!

JMHO.......

[Intruder]

It works brilliantly in WoT in terms of making the game fun (and tanks you can't see are hidden even if you peek around corners)

I can't wait to see my Mech tonight - though of course it might make me an even worse player at least I can have some fun dying in a fire.

[Farix]

c0nk3r, on 20 August 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Hi,

just found an excellent video about this topic

Which has no bearing on MWO as MWO's implementation of 3PV—with its drone with a blinking light and severally nerfed interface and controls—is completely different from ARMA's implementation.

[c0nk3r]

Farix, on 21 August 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

Which has no bearing on MWO as MWO's implementation of 3PV—with its drone with a blinking light and severally nerfed interface and controls—is completely different from ARMA's implementation.

Yeah, the drone with a blinking light like this bike's flag...



and the bike is the mech... mission accomplished... welcome to 3Pv MWO...