17 replies to this topic

[Rasc4l]

Hi,

encouraged by the fact that the heat of PPCs were fixed recently and PGI shows reason, I was just thinking of making a simple poll. I hope that in Paul's decision to increase PPC heat was the foresight of making things as compatible and balanced as possible also considering clan weapons, because clan PPCs will be devastating.

So the same thing with ECM. Lore tells us that ECM's big brother, Angel ECM will be introduced around 3052:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Angel_ECM

It seems PGI has already modeled Angel's effect with the current ECM. If MWO AECM would be even more powerful than the current implementation of ECM, it would be too much. So ECM nerf would probably happen sometime before AECM is introduced. If we do it now, the later addition of Angel ECM goes smoother and there will be less crying game.

So how about just cutting the ECM 180 m range to 20-30 m so only your lance could be protected if they stick really close?

[The Boz]

The core functionality should be gutted.

[Wolfways]

I would have chosen the first option if you hadn't added "keep ECM as is".
It just needs the anti-missile lock bit removed.

[Foxfire]

The core functionality should be changed, not gutted. It really should function as an anti artimis to missiles instead of a blanket protection... it shouldn't prevent targeting mechs when the targeter is outside of the sphere of influence of the ECM(those inside should remain boned without a counter) but it should prevent the ability to gather target data on the mech being targeted.

[Firewuff]

its balanced, therer is tag, BAP , PPC's, seismic sensors all defeat it. its not a god shield nor even that effective any more.

[Wolfways]

Firewuff, on 08 September 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

its balanced,

Not even close.

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therer is tag,

750m range. Unlike other weapons LRM's didn't get a range increase in MWO and there's enough cover on the maps to make LRM's mostly pointless anyway, but yeah let's remove one of a Catapults limited energy slots...

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BAP,

Okay if you're using streaks.

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PPC's,

Which don't disable ECM long enough to get a lock and track the target.

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seismic sensors all defeat it.

What do seismic sensors do to ECM?

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its not a god shield nor even that effective any more.

Yes it is.

[Firewuff]

TAG - 750 meter range so you can hit them outside the bubble and let others know exactly where they are, LRM are an option especially on mass and have a 1 km range. Tag also works up close for Streaks altough the lock is slower it is effective. build a Cat with Streaks + LRM +TAG and your pretty deadly esp when ranged at 180m-270m but you can hit at any range.

BAP mitigates ECM to some extent but combined with other methods is even more powerful

ER-PPC's /PPCs stop ECM for 10 seconds, long enough for a lock. chain fire more than one and you can permenantly keep it down.

Seismic Sensors stop EMC mechs, particular the smaller one sneaking up behind you and not showing up on any radar mitigating close up sneak attacks.


If you run streaks or LRM's without TAG or a PPC then your an *****. ECM will get you everytime. If you dont use LRM's then ECM has no effect against direct fire so not an issue.

[Wolfways]

Firewuff, on 09 September 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

TAG - 750 meter range so you can hit them outside the bubble and let others know exactly where they are, LRM are an option especially on mass and have a 1 km range. Tag also works up close for Streaks altough the lock is slower it is effective. build a Cat with Streaks + LRM +TAG and your pretty deadly esp when ranged at 180m-270m but you can hit at any range.

BAP mitigates ECM to some extent but combined with other methods is even more powerful

ER-PPC's /PPCs stop ECM for 10 seconds, long enough for a lock. chain fire more than one and you can permenantly keep it down.

Seismic Sensors stop EMC mechs, particular the smaller one sneaking up behind you and not showing up on any radar mitigating close up sneak attacks.


If you run streaks or LRM's without TAG or a PPC then your an *****. ECM will get you everytime. If you dont use LRM's then ECM has no effect against direct fire so not an issue.

So you're saying to be able to use LRM's i should also have to use TAG, BAP, Seismic sensors, and at least two PPC's (which break the ECM for 4 seconds). Or only use direct fire weapons.
And that makes ECM balanced...

Wow you're a ******* genius.

Edited by Wolfways, 09 September 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

This discussion again?

I thought it is obviously:

A 1.5t equipment that need several ways to counter it - mostly using direct actions of the player (TAG, PPC) can not be called balanced - without making a joke.

The full electronic and information warfare need another round - and a draw from scratch (or do you think that the "missing" of new ECM Mechs or that no PremiumMech uses ECM is an accident)

To the POLL:

NO - drop it - make it better next time

Edited by Karl Streiger, 10 September 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[Bendak]

Wolfways, on 09 September 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

So you're saying to be able to use LRM's i should also have to use TAG, BAP, Seismic sensors, and at least two PPC's (which break the ECM for 4 seconds). Or only use direct fire weapons.
And that makes ECM balanced...

Wow you're a ******* genius.

Dude learn to play. It's quite evident that you are incapable of using the mechanics to counter ECM which is easy and VERY simple. TAG. TAG. TAG. Yes ECM stops you blind firing LRMs, which is OP.

[Wolfways]

Bendak, on 10 September 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Dude learn to play. It's quite evident that you are incapable of using the mechanics to counter ECM which is easy and VERY simple. TAG. TAG. TAG. Yes ECM stops you blind firing LRMs, which is OP.

If you got that from my post then you are obviously incapable of reading. And as you support ECM in its current state it's obvious you need to learn to play as you don't have the skill needed to avoid LRM's, and think they are OP which is quite laughable.

[Orkhepaj]

boost ecm and put more type of ewar into the game , more possibilities always good for a pvp game

say no to noobs who wants to dumb down games to lame slugfests
there are plenty of things that counter ecm already just use them

i know you are not happy until ecm is nerfed so hard that it is not worth to be used , that is just lame

[RandomLurker]

I didn't vote, since you don't have the right options.

ECM is too powerful and needs mechanical changes. It's range is not the core issue. Generally, I can look at my scoreboard at the start of a match, count the number of ECM mechs we have, and predict a win or loss from that alone. Currently, ECM does the following things:

• Blocks sensor lock.
  
• Blocks missile lock, even when sensors can lock (close range).
  
• Blocks minimap radar.
  
• Blocks target information sharing with your team.
  
• Blocks BAP benefits when a lock is possible (close range, tag, etc).
  
• Blocks Artemis IV benefits when a lock is possible (close range, tag, etc).

So, not only is it an extremely powerful anti-missile defense, it is an incredible information denial tool as well. It simply does too many things, and doesn't have enough counters. Here are it's counters:

• TAG - only functions on a single target, requires TAGing mech to be exposed to fire, requires continuous coverage. Not a reliable counter.
  
• NARC - get's blown off the target as soon as the first missiles hit it. Not a reliable counter.
  
• BAP - only has any effect when in range of the ECM source mech. Has no effect otherwise.
  
• PPC strike - only lasts 4 seconds. Not a reliable counter.

Obviously, it does far too many things and doesn't have enough counters. Some basic mechanic changes are needed to rebalance it. Firstly, it's information denial ability needs to be reduced. This is best done by tweaking the BAP into a reliable counter and scouting tool, which according to cannon is what it's for. Second, it needs to have it's power against missiles reduced. This will help with the sniping metagame problems as well.

• Make BAP counter ECM effects on any mech within range of the BAP (180m). This allows scouts to spot for their team, without having to go all the way into an enemy formation to counter the ECM source. This is in addition to the current function of shutting down ECM when in range of the source.
  
• Make ECM covered targets visible on the minimap, at 500m or less, to anyone carrying a BAP. Normal LOS rules still apply.
  
• Instead of completely blocking missile lock, change this function to a 100% increase in missile lock time, and reduce the tracking strength of missiles. Remember, this is in addition to blocking sensor locks, so there's still a 500m range limit on LRMs unless you have a BAP-equipped spotter.

This will make BAP/Bloodhound (when the time comes) and scout mechs a vital part of battlefield control. ECM retains most of it's power, but loses it's ability to simply be an off switch for missiles and minimap sensors. Overall, temwork will be enhanced, and the metagame becomes more flexible.

[Bendak]

Wolfways, on 10 September 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

If you got that from my post then you are obviously incapable of reading. And as you support ECM in its current state it's obvious you need to learn to play as you don't have the skill needed to avoid LRM's, and think they are OP which is quite laughable.

Yeah right. Get in an assault and out run them in the open, golly Alpine would be great fun eh? GG. TAG = missile lock. I reaffirm my previous statement, L2P. I just levelled up an AWS-8R LRMs and TAG. Piece of P I S S, Awesomes are awesome(despite the QQ on forum), ECM is useless against my uber TAG layz0r! Maybe you are so bad at aiming that TAG don't work? Or you just like hiding and blind firing death in your boat? Eitherway... cool story bro.

Edited by Bendak, 10 September 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[Wolfways]

Bendak, on 10 September 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Yeah right. Get in an assault and out run them in the open, golly Alpine would be great fun eh? GG.

If you're in an assault mech and out in the open you obviously don't know how to play and should expect to be killed. Strange that you think only LRM's can kill you when you're not using cover.

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TAG = missile lock. I reaffirm my previous statement, L2P. I just levelled up an AWS-8R LRMs and TAG. Piece of P I S S, Awesomes are awesome(despite the QQ on forum),

Yes, obviously your opinion must be correct and all those who say the Awesome sucks are wrong

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ECM is useless against my uber TAG layz0r! Maybe you are so bad at aiming that TAG don't work?

lol I'm sure you manage to keep your TAG on those ECM light mechs long enough to get a lock and guide them to the target...

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Or you just like hiding and blind firing death in your boat? Eitherway... cool story bro.

Actually i don't have one, except my C1 which i rarely play because there is so much ECM around now.

If you can use TAG on light ECM mechs then i'd assume the other players were newbies or just bad players. Either way you are playing in a low ELO game. Maybe you'll see things differently if you learn to play and rise in ELO to get games against better players.

Edit: Forgot to say...While you are guiding your missiles to the target you are in their LOS too. Stand there firing LRM's at me and you'll be dead in seconds.

Edited by Wolfways, 10 September 2013 - 02:37 PM.

[Rasc4l]

RandomLurker, on 10 September 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

I didn't vote, since you don't have the right options.

ECM is too powerful and needs mechanical changes. It's range is not the core issue. Generally, I can look at my scoreboard at the start of a match, count the number of ECM mechs we have, and predict a win or loss from that alone. Currently, ECM does the following things:

Very good points which I agree with pretty much all the way. However, since I'm not confident that PGI sees the big picture of information warfare, I made this poll with simple options. Well, it obviously didn't work since this kind of compromise doesn't solve that much.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

The whole ECM, LRM, TAG, RADAR mechanics are very poorly implemented in MWO. MWLL is so much better designed in this sector that I just cant belive that thay not used experience of past BT video devs and want to invent quadre wheel from new.

For those who dont know what MWLL is http://forum.mechliv...ic,19022.0.html

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 12 September 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Rasc4l, on 08 September 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

Hi,

encouraged by the fact that the heat of PPCs were fixed recently and PGI shows reason, I was just thinking of making a simple poll. I hope that in Paul's decision to increase PPC heat was the foresight of making things as compatible and balanced as possible also considering clan weapons, because clan PPCs will be devastating.

So the same thing with ECM. Lore tells us that ECM's big brother, Angel ECM will be introduced around 3052:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Angel_ECM

It seems PGI has already modeled Angel's effect with the current ECM. If MWO AECM would be even more powerful than the current implementation of ECM, it would be too much. So ECM nerf would probably happen sometime before AECM is introduced. If we do it now, the later addition of Angel ECM goes smoother and there will be less crying game.

So how about just cutting the ECM 180 m range to 20-30 m so only your lance could be protected if they stick really close?

The statement "...PGI has already modeled Angel's effect with the current ECM..." is only true insofar as both systems were designed to fulfill similar tasks in more-or-less the same ways.
To say that Guardian ECM and Angel ECM are "the same" is analogous to - and equally incorrect as - claiming that an Izuzu Trooper and a Hummer H3 are "the same" because both are "mid-sized, 4-door, front-engine, 4-wheel-drive SUVs that use reciprocating engines".

Guardian ECM (TechManual, pg. 213)
"This broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare (EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical “bubble” roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV - all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear."

Angel ECM (Tactical Operations, pg. 279)

• "Derived from captured Clan technology, research on the Angel ECM Suite began shortly after the Battle of Luthien as part of an effort to counter the increasingly sophisticated electronic warfare systems of the modern battlefield. Essentially a boosted, broader-spectrum version of the Guardian ECM, the Angel was shelved numerous times due to cost overruns and ultimately saved only with aid from ComStar."
  
• "The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM, but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model."
  
• "Units equipped with Stealth Armor can use the Angel ECM in place of the Guardian ECM for the same effect, using the same rules."
  
• "If the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is equal to or greater than the enemy ECM in that hex, ECM does not function in that hex. For this purpose, the Angel ECM suite counts as two ECM or ECCM suites, or the player can choose to run the Angel at 1 ECM and 1 ECCM." (TacOps, pg. 100)
  
• "An Angel ECM Suite can be tuned to be 1 ECM or 1 ECCM while it generates ghost targets." (TacOps, pg. 102)

The Guardian ECM Suite ("...typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors...") is a multi-spectrum electronic warfare system that likely includes electronic radar jamming equipment, some degree of laser jamming equipment, an infrared countermeasures (IRCM) system (likely very similar to the planned CIRCM system), a sonar jamming system (see here and here), and some system meant to confuse magnetometers and magnetic anomaly detectors.

The Angel ECM suite is a separate system that mirrors (and intensifies) the functions and effects of two separate Guardian ECM suites, and manages to place such a system into a package of the same mass and volume as its sister-system.

The capabilities of MWO's ECM suite can generally be attributed to ECM suites in general (e.g. capabilities shared by both Guardian and Angel) or to the Guardian ECM suite specifically via the advanced rules found in Tactical Operations (or inferences based thereupon), but it does not possess any of the unique characteristics of the Angel ECM suite.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 19 September 2013 - 01:01 PM.