74 replies to this topic

[Suprentus]

What kind of meta is PGI going for here? Every time a weapon becomes popular, they have to add some overcomplicated mechanic to it. Complicated layer after complicated layer after complicated layer later, the balance system is now a complete mess. It doesn't need to be this way. We've become so used to PGI's bass ackwards mechanics that we're now thinking that changing simple numbers to the already broken mechanics will fix things.

My opinion is to completely rip out all the overcomplicated mechanics and start over. I know PGI invested months into tweaking everything into oblivion, and it's a hard thing to give that up, but they really need to cut their losses here and start thinking simple.

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How to fix the UAC/5? That is so simple and obvious, I don't know why people aren't pushing for it more. The fix isn't to just increase its jam rate. Because the UAC/5 runs on an overcomplicated system to begin with, people just use macros for it to get around its arbitrary handcuff. Think about it for a second. What is the UAC/5? It's an AC/5 that is 1 ton heavier, and 1 ton bigger with a faster rate of fire. The question becomes "is that extra ton and crit worth it?"

So what's the super simple solution? Make the UAC/5 identical to the AC/5, with the added feature to DOUBLE TAP the trigger to release a second shot. Only when it's double tapped should it have a chance to jam. Now what that extra ton and crit gets you is the ability to double tap with a simple risk vs reward mechanic that you can choose to use or not use. No macro needed, and it's accessible to even the noobiest of noobs.

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What about ghost heat? Yeah, rip that right out. You know, that whole debacle can be fixed with something like this:

Outfit a Stalker with 3 PPCs, and the UI gives you a message saying "WARNING! This chassis is not designed for such a high energy output. Irian BattleMechs Unlimited cannot be held responsible for the effects this loadout might cause on your 'Mech. Use at your own risk!" Then have various effects happen when you fire them all, such as the engine stalling, HUD getting static-y and unable to accurately gauge info, and even so much as requiring the 'Mech to reboot if you push it too far. It would be easy to understand and pretty immersive, don't you think? It doesn't need complicated mathematical formulas to understand its effects. Meanwhile, this Awesome over here can load 3 PPCs no problem.

Or you load a 'Mech usually not associated as missile boats with a boatload of LRMs. The same warning message pops up, and the effects end up being that all the missiles can't track as well anymore. Some of them just fly off the mark and hurdle into the ground on their way to the target. It won't make as much of a difference from 200m away, but at 800m away, the resulting effects become really apparent.

Now you'd have an easy to understand mechanic that curbs abusive builds, while making all the 'Mechs more diverse and have personality.

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Gauss rifle doesn't need a charge time, it just doesn't.

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For the longest time, ECM was ridiculous. But look at how simple the solution to it was. A simple 100% hard counter with the BAP, and it's fine now. It didn't need overcomplicated methods.

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Double heatsinks don't need to function the way they do, with there being a huge difference between engine heatsinks and non-engine heatsinks. I think we just collectively forgot about that, and accepted how it added a needlessly arbitrary layer to 'Mech customization that limits our options.

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As a final note, let me also add that popular is not the same as OP. Just because you see a lot of people using a certain weapon system, doesn't mean it's OP. If you're just going to nerf everything with overcomplicated mechanics, then you should just restrict us to using Medium Lasers only and call it a day, because then no one can complain about balance anymore.

Edited by Suprentus, 11 September 2013 - 02:03 AM.

[The Boz]

Funny, I thought people were bitchng about oversimplifying the game and dumbing down the mechanics...

[DeadlyNerd]

The Boz, on 11 September 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Funny, I thought people were bitchng about oversimplifying the game and dumbing down the mechanics...

It's simplifying the frontend, but complicating the backend. They made 3PV and arm lock to simplify the game for newbs, but at the same time over complicated the backend of the game like weapon balancing and heat generation, everything that newbs can't see. This over complication is a mess as PGI can't keep track of it.

Einstein said that if you can't explain your theory in simple terms, you don't understand it. If PGI can't balance the game with simple fixes, they can't do squat.

[Xione87]

Suprentus, on 11 September 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

How to fix the UAC/5? That is so simple and obvious, I don't know why people aren't pushing for it more. The fix isn't to just increase its jam rate. Because the UAC/5 runs on an overcomplicated system to begin with, people just use macros for it to get around its arbitrary handcuff. Think about it for a second. What is the UAC/5? It's an AC/5 that is 1 ton heavier, and 1 ton bigger with a faster rate of fire. The question becomes "is that extra ton and crit worth it?"

So what's the super simple solution? Make the UAC/5 identical to the AC/5, with the added feature to DOUBLE TAP the trigger to release a second shot. Only when it's double tapped should it have a chance to jam. Now what that extra ton and crit gets you is the ability to double tap with a simple risk vs reward mechanic that you can choose to use or not use. No macro needed, and it's accessible to even the noobiest of noobs.

Well this, sort of, is allready how the UAC5 works. Except there is no ingame method to prevent you from double tapping, it's what happens all the time if you keep the fire button pressed.

I keep advocating a mechanic whereby the UAC5 just simply fires faster than the AC5 with 0% jam chance per shot. However, it should have a jam/overheat 'bar' whereby every shot fills up the bar with a certain amount. Once the bar is full the UAC5 will instantly jam (perhaps increase Jam time to compensate for the extra reliability).

This makes the weapon more reliable with good burst DPS. However, after a certain amount of time you have to stop firing and disengage or your weapon will jam. This is the point where conventional weapons will catch up with you if you are still in range of return fire.

[MustrumRidcully]

I don't agree with everything in the details, but enough.

UAC
Something that "complicates" the game but is defeated by a macro is bad design. Figure out a mechanic that's easy to use and still is balanced.

Heat Scale
The heat system needs changes, but ghost heat is adding extra mechanics that don't even address the real issues. We now have Ghost Heat and PPCs and ER PPCs at values they had in the early Closed Beta. Guess what really has killed Quad PPC Stalkers and Guass + Dual PPC Highlanders?

Gauss
Every weapon-specific unique mechanic is one more reason to just boat weapons, instead of mixing loadouts. There is no reason to run an ER LL, a Gauss and an UAC/5 together in MW:O, because each requries a special mechanic to consider. MW:O is basically a shooter that allows you to use 1 Sniper Rifle and 1 Rocket launcher together, but it also allows you to just use 2 Sniper Rifles or 2 Rocket Launcher. If you really want the Sniper Rifle and the Rocket Launcher to be used together, you better have mechanics in place that make this feasible. Yes, maybe some will say "that's simplistic" or it's "for the ADD generation", but don't kid yourself. You don't need to have an attention deficite syndrome to want to avoid extra complexity that doesn't give you any advantages.

ECM
The current situation is still not good. ECM's only purpose now seems to be an LRM counter. There is little left from all the cool stuff Information Warfare could have been.

Double Heat Sinks
Just another facet of the broken heat system.

[jeffsw6]

Suprentus, on 11 September 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

...but they really need to cut their losses here and start thinking simple.

That's called Release.

[Mudhutwarrior]

They are only making it harder for new or casual players. The hardcore macro boys are never affected by this. Team slaughter has increased and become faster with the macro teams so I have no clue what they are trying to do. Most everything they have done this year is like that.
Hope to god the hardcore and the hackers can support this game because no one else will.

[Wolfways]

The problem, imo, with UAC's is that the chance of jamming is completely random. It can happen straight away (if you're not using a macro).

Just make the jamming slightly more player controlled.
Make the UAC5 fire slightly faster than the AC5 and you just hold the button down as normal to fire. But the weapon heats up fast (the weapon, not the mech) and a red bar is shown on the cooldown bar that increases the longer the weapon is fired.
When the bar reaches full red there's a chance the weapon will jam (the % chance has nothing to do with fire rate so can't be macro'd). Therefore the player has the choice of releasing the button and letting the weapon cool down, or keep firing and risking a jam.

[DaZur]

I dunno...

I sometimes think to a degree we're too close to the source to objectively qualify if it's too confusing or not.

It's kind'a like the Hot Dog paradigm... They taste good until you know what they're made of...

It's purely anecdotal but I "see" a lot more people playing / enjoying MW:O without complaint... than I see forum warring.

What's the saying... "Ignorance is bliss" I guess?

Edited by DaZur, 11 September 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[ExplodedZombie]

Suprentus, on 11 September 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

How to fix the UAC/5? That is so simple and obvious, I don't know why people aren't pushing for it more. The fix isn't to just increase its jam rate. Because the UAC/5 runs on an overcomplicated system to begin with, people just use macros for it to get around its arbitrary handcuff. Think about it for a second. What is the UAC/5? It's an AC/5 that is 1 ton heavier, and 1 ton bigger with a faster rate of fire. The question becomes "is that extra ton and crit worth it?"

So what's the super simple solution? Make the UAC/5 identical to the AC/5, with the added feature to DOUBLE TAP the trigger to release a second shot. Only when it's double tapped should it have a chance to jam. Now what that extra ton and crit gets you is the ability to double tap with a simple risk vs reward mechanic that you can choose to use or not use. No macro needed, and it's accessible to even the noobiest of noobs.


For the longest time, ECM was ridiculous. But look at how simple the solution to it was. A simple 100% hard counter with the BAP, and it's fine now. It didn't need overcomplicated methods.

Agreed on 2 points, for sure!

Though my post "Skill-based UAC/5" was a somewhat-complicated explanation, it is basically what you're saying here. I agree with you 100%, though I do like the sliding-scale jam rate that I describe, which is where the "skill" would really come in.

BAP is not a hard counter to ECM. It's a soft-counter, at best. I do agree that it's a great solution, though.

[Clit Beastwood]

BAP's a pretty good ECM counter, so is a UAV. As a scout, I locate ECM enemies, pop a uav, and type in text chat when i can the letter designation for their DDC, etc. - it seems to work... if people read the message.

[The Boz]

Fierostetz, on 11 September 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

BAP's a pretty good ECM counter, so is a UAV. As a scout, I locate ECM enemies, pop a uav, and type in text chat when i can the letter designation for their DDC, etc. - it seems to work... if people read the message.

Shooting fourty thousand cbills at a target is a viable counter.
Thank you, I needed the laugh.

[Core2029]

Suprentus, on 11 September 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

What kind of meta is PGI going for here? Every time a weapon becomes popular, they have to add some overcomplicated mechanic to it. Complicated layer after complicated layer after complicated layer later, the balance system is now a complete mess. It doesn't need to be this way. We've become so used to PGI's bass ackwards mechanics that we're now thinking that changing simple numbers to the already broken mechanics will fix things.

My opinion is to completely rip out all the overcomplicated mechanics and start over. I know PGI invested months into tweaking everything into oblivion, and it's a hard thing to give that up, but they really need to cut their losses here and start thinking simple.

-----------------------------------------------------------

How to fix the UAC/5? That is so simple and obvious, I don't know why people aren't pushing for it more. The fix isn't to just increase its jam rate. Because the UAC/5 runs on an overcomplicated system to begin with, people just use macros for it to get around its arbitrary handcuff. Think about it for a second. What is the UAC/5? It's an AC/5 that is 1 ton heavier, and 1 ton bigger with a faster rate of fire. The question becomes "is that extra ton and crit worth it?"

So what's the super simple solution? Make the UAC/5 identical to the AC/5, with the added feature to DOUBLE TAP the trigger to release a second shot. Only when it's double tapped should it have a chance to jam. Now what that extra ton and crit gets you is the ability to double tap with a simple risk vs reward mechanic that you can choose to use or not use. No macro needed, and it's accessible to even the noobiest of noobs.

-----------------------------------------------------------

What about ghost heat? Yeah, rip that right out. You know, that whole debacle can be fixed with something like this:

Outfit a Stalker with 3 PPCs, and the UI gives you a message saying "WARNING! This chassis is not designed for such a high energy output. Irian BattleMechs Unlimited cannot be held responsible for the effects this loadout might cause on your 'Mech. Use at your own risk!" Then have various effects happen when you fire them all, such as the engine stalling, HUD getting static-y and unable to accurately gauge info, and even so much as requiring the 'Mech to reboot if you push it too far. It would be easy to understand and pretty immersive, don't you think? It doesn't need complicated mathematical formulas to understand its effects. Meanwhile, this Awesome over here can load 3 PPCs no problem.

Or you load a 'Mech usually not associated as missile boats with a boatload of LRMs. The same warning message pops up, and the effects end up being that all the missiles can't track as well anymore. Some of them just fly off the mark and hurdle into the ground on their way to the target. It won't make as much of a difference from 200m away, but at 800m away, the resulting effects become really apparent.

Now you'd have an easy to understand mechanic that curbs abusive builds, while making all the 'Mechs more diverse and have personality.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Gauss rifle doesn't need a charge time, it just doesn't.

-----------------------------------------------------------

For the longest time, ECM was ridiculous. But look at how simple the solution to it was. A simple 100% hard counter with the BAP, and it's fine now. It didn't need overcomplicated methods.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Double heatsinks don't need to function the way they do, with there being a huge difference between engine heatsinks and non-engine heatsinks. I think we just collectively forgot about that, and accepted how it added a needlessly arbitrary layer to 'Mech customization that limits our options.

-----------------------------------------------------------

As a final note, let me also add that popular is not the same as OP. Just because you see a lot of people using a certain weapon system, doesn't mean it's OP. If you're just going to nerf everything with overcomplicated mechanics, then you should just restrict us to using Medium Lasers only and call it a day, because then no one can complain about balance anymore.

You sir, are a freaking genius. How do I make love to this post?

Quote

Now you'd have an easy to understand mechanic that curbs abusive builds, while making all the 'Mechs more diverse and have personality.

I really like that you called out personality. This is something that people seem to throw out the window. Some mechs had well-known, perfectly acceptable loadouts that were feared and of great concern on the battlefield. Remember when people used to yell out "K2!" and it was just understood that they must die first? That's personality. With all the gimpy changes about the only thing you hear these days is "D-DC..."

Edited by Core2029, 11 September 2013 - 07:58 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The Boz, on 11 September 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Funny, I thought people were bitchng about oversimplifying the game and dumbing down the mechanics...

There is complexity and there is needless complexity. For example, why can't double heats sinks just be double heat sinks? Instead they are double heatsinks but only if they are in the engine and all the external ones are only 1.4x heat sinks. Then when I got to try to figure out if my 15 heat ER PPC is going to be cool enough to run on my mech, I have to run it through some complicated formula rather than I need 15 heat sinks to disappate 15 heat. This is an example of needless complexity.

[Core2029]

Wolfways, on 11 September 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

The problem, imo, with UAC's is that the chance of jamming is completely random. It can happen straight away (if you're not using a macro).

Just make the jamming slightly more player controlled.
Make the UAC5 fire slightly faster than the AC5 and you just hold the button down as normal to fire. But the weapon heats up fast (the weapon, not the mech) and a red bar is shown on the cooldown bar that increases the longer the weapon is fired.
When the bar reaches full red there's a chance the weapon will jam (the % chance has nothing to do with fire rate so can't be macro'd). Therefore the player has the choice of releasing the button and letting the weapon cool down, or keep firing and risking a jam.

At first glance I like this but it still throws that random element in there - does it randomly fire twice for one round or not? If the jam chance is negated by an overarching heat limitation it becomes quite a bit less risky to just lay into them while watching for your heat threshold. It could work but I prefer his idea of the pilot using what is essentially an AC5 and deciding when to take that chance for a jam. This keeps the UAC5 nearly identical to an AC5 and lets the player decide if they want to risk jamming. The jam rate could be easily tweaked as needed and...FIXED!

[Victor Morson]

Some complaints valid (Ghost Heat), others silly (Gauss); I give this thread a 5 out of 10.

[Delas Ting Usee]

Victor Morson, on 11 September 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Some complaints valid (Ghost Heat), others silly (Gauss); I give this thread a 5 out of 10.

Some opinions Valid (Suprentus post including points on Gauss), others silly (Victor's counter argument). I give myself a 5 out of 10 for responding to this thread.

[Imperius]

Victor Morson, on 11 September 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Some complaints valid (Ghost Heat), others silly (Gauss); I give this thread a 5 out of 10.

You're nicer than I am. I like a complicated game because it keeps my attention. Oversimplifying it too much and I lose interest fast. If I lose interest I won't pay money again.

That said I give this thread a whine/10

I like it to where you had to go though a button sequence to turn on your mech before battle. If you don't know your mech then it don't start. Of course then this game would actually be closer to a sim. I would like to see resupply depots with VTOL pilots that pulls from a que if people who want to fly (of course added when the game gets big enough)

[Devils Advocate]

You realize that at the point where you're asking them to remove every actual mechanic they've implemented into the game you're asking for counter strike right? There are other games you can play if you'd rather be able to coast on a rail and click on enemies all day. This isn't the only game out there and I'm sure you can find one that suits your preference without rebuilding this one from the ground up and tearing out all of the work they've put into it.

[ferranis]

Easy to learn, hard to master. MWO is hard to learn, easy to master. As if those overcomplicated mechanics are more than a slight annoyance for veterans.

But imagine a new player trying to learn everything at the current implementation - confusing at least, downright unfair to be more exact.

Example? 'Hey i want to build a awesome with 2 pccs, works great. Now i will try to add another ppc and some heatsinks as well (because i am not stupid)'

And then ghost heat strikes and there is zero ingame explanation why.

Edited by ferranis, 12 September 2013 - 01:51 AM.