21 replies to this topic

[D A T A]

Goals of the new utopian balance i am suggesting

1) continuous fire and Alpha striking fire allowed at the same time, both good choices. You can us both tactics: brawl and long range

2) each weapon with a single specified role.


THE WAY

-INCREASING armor by 40%, reducing the weight per armor block in order to mantain the same actual weight and increasing weapons ability by about 5%-10% using various aspects will garant a longer durability of the game, we will die less, even if weapons are a bit stronger, so we are allowed to do BOOOOM and hide in a tactic way, without being forcet to push......even IF THE GOOD POINT OF THIS SYSTEM IS THAT YOU CAN DO BOTH.

-ghost heat is a nonsense and it is completely removed

-in order to avoid the effectiveness of 3+ ppcs, spread of particles.
a part of the damage is done to the hit part, the rest is spread all over the mech...... the % of damage that goes all around is incresed if you increase the number of ppc used at the same time, so boating is not allowed and we do not have stupid heat penality. SO WE CAN FINALLY USE PPCS FOR DPS: more possibilities= better game.
suggested formula (x= number of ppc used)
damage on hit part= (8-x)x
damage spread all around [10x-(8-x)x]/6

consider that no additional damage comes out from this formula

example, i shoot 5 ppcs, in total i do Always 50 damage, but in the hit part i do only (8-5)5= 15 damage, the remaining damage, is divided per 6 and spread in the mechs.
the less ppc you use, the more your damage is focused, but you can still use ppcs for dps.

-no gauss load time

-LBX do more damage per bullet and have double spread, all the rest is equal

-Ultra ac system completely redone. when you pull the reigger they shoot 2 rounds with a very very small time delay, ac5 damage 5, ultra ac5 damage 3+3, lbx ac5 damage 7, but very high spread, you are not able to focus all that extra damage unless you are very close, comparing to ultra and normal counterparts.



DAMAGE HEAT WEIGHT AMMO RANGE RELOAD SLOTS DURATION SPREAD
PPC 10 8 7 540 4 3 0 0
ERPPC 10 11 7 810 4 3 0 0
LGLAS 9 6 5 450 3 2 1 0
ERLGLAS 9 7,5 5 650 3 2 1 0
LGPLSLAS 10 5 6 300 3 2 0,4 0
MDLAS 5 3 1 280 3 1 1 0
MDPLSLAS 7 4 2 150 3 1 0,4 0
SMLLAS 3 1 0,5 90 2 1 1 0
SMLPLSLAS 5 2 1 70 2 1 0,4 0
AC 2 2 0,5 5 100 700 0,5 1 0 0
AC 5 5 1 7 50 600 1 4 0 0
AC 10 10 2 10 25 450 2 7 0 0
AC 20 22 6 14 10 270 4 10 0 0
UAC 2 1,2+1,2 0,75 5 100 650 0,5 1 0,2 0
UAC 5 3+3 1 7 50 550 1 4 0,2 0
UAC 10 6+6 3 10 25 400 2 7 0,2 0
UAC 20 11,5+11,5 7 14 10 240 4 10 0,2 0
LBX AC 2 3 0,5 5 100 500 0,5 1 0 double
LBX AC 5 7,5 1 7 50 350 1 4 0 double
LBX AC 10 13 2 10 25 300 2 7 0 double
LBX AC 20 25 7 14 10 150 4 10 0 double
GAUSS 15 0,5 14 15 700 4 7 0 0
SRM 2 5 2 2 120 300 3 1 0 same as actual
SRM 4 10 3 3 120 300 4 1 0 same as actual
SRM 6 15 4 4 120 300 4 2 0 same as actual
no change on lrms, just on narc, it always remains active for 10 seconds, even if you hit it.

Edited by IL MECHWARRIOR, 12 September 2013 - 09:46 AM.
Ad Hominem

[D A T A]

exel file seems not supported, ****

[MnDragon]

You are aware that they already doubled armor values once right? Adding MORE armor isn't the answer. Personally I think there should be a rework of the damage for all the weapon systems to more closely represent the TT values divided by 10. For example, the AC5 has a recycle time of 1.5 Secs. In TT you fired it once per turn, doing 5 damage. A turn in TT is 10 secs so.... 10 sec / 1.5 secs = 6.66 volleys therefore each round in MWO should be worth .75 points of damage. You fire 6 volleys in 10 seconds and do the max 5 damage. Reduce all armor values to what they were before. Problem solved. BUUUTTT...I'm not a game dev so I may not know of the programing constrainst and I haven't tested it or anything, so I wouldn't dream of saying my way is better...Just a suggestion.

[Angel of Annihilation]

MnDragon, on 11 September 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

You are aware that they already doubled armor values once right? Adding MORE armor isn't the answer. Personally I think there should be a rework of the damage for all the weapon systems to more closely represent the TT values divided by 10. For example, the AC5 has a recycle time of 1.5 Secs. In TT you fired it once per turn, doing 5 damage. A turn in TT is 10 secs so.... 10 sec / 1.5 secs = 6.66 volleys therefore each round in MWO should be worth .75 points of damage. You fire 6 volleys in 10 seconds and do the max 5 damage. Reduce all armor values to what they were before. Problem solved. BUUUTTT...I'm not a game dev so I may not know of the programing constrainst and I haven't tested it or anything, so I wouldn't dream of saying my way is better...Just a suggestion.

Been saying for a while they needed to revert to a system more closely resembling TT rather than reinventing the wheel like they have been trying to do. Right now they seemed to have forgotten that a wheel doesn't turn well when it square in shape.

[Livewyr]

TT does not fit everything in a real time translation..but I think the changes can be made with things that aren't dictated in TT wherever possible.

(Example: Projectile speeds, DoT length for lasers, etc..)

[Bluetavius]

Sigh...

I know its not all "go back to TT"

but for the parts that are, go play Mechwarrior 3 and you will see why that's a bad idea.

[Lightfoot]

The reason why doubling the armor was not enough was that they changed the gameplay dynamics with 2xRecharge. In all previous MechWarrior titles you never turned to your target until your weapons recharged, 6 to 8 seconds for Gauss and AC20 so the Mechs lasted quite a bit longer, duels could take 1 minute- 3 minutes, average around 90 seconds and the damage was spread over the mech.

MWO's 2xRecharge creates a gameplay dynamic where mechs never turn away, they just get cored in a face-off in about 30 seconds or less. That's why they need to be tougher or just get rid of 2xRecharge. One or the other. Players are obviously very unhappy with how fast their mechs are destroyed because they run around frantically demanding nerfs every week.

They need to either support 2xRecharge with tougher mechs, if they really want to keep it. Or go back to normal recharge and get rid of all the game-breaking nerfs they have invented to block players from using 2xRecharge.

[DocBach]

As much as I hate to say it, since it wasn't my first choice of a solution, ghost heat and the changes to PPC's/Gauss has made the game a lot more balanced. Limiting the amount of massed fire has done a lot for 'Mech survivability without gimping ammo weapons like upping all armor would do.

[Homeless Bill]

No.

[Lindonius]

I don't really know why people bother coming up with balance suggestions anymore. Even the really good suggestions get completely ignored so why bother?

Waste of time.

[D A T A]

AND WILL NEVER be applied ( retracted) looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

what is TT?

[Rasc4l]

IL MECHWARRIOR, on 11 September 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

DAMAGE HEAT WEIGHT AMMO RANGE RELOAD SLOTS DURATION SPREAD
PPC 10 8 7 540 4 3 0 0
ERPPC 10 11 7 810 4 3 0 0

Another one who misses the PPC warrior online. I do not.

[D A T A]

Rasc4l, on 12 September 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Another one who misses the PPC warrior online. I do not.

at least try to read all the post before giving an answer, in my balance lasers have even lower heat and do not suffer of ghost heat, while ppcs are useless if used in more than 2 or 3, buecause they will spread more damage in %.

ac 2 do half heat

all ac weight less

LBX ac 20 does 25 damage, but you need to get under 100 meters

small pulse are very strong, in order to give a chance to light mechs.........


2.5 DAMAGE TO SRMS.....

etc etc etc etc......

READ ALL THE BALANCE BEFORE GIVING A COMMENT

Edited by IL MECHWARRIOR, 12 September 2013 - 04:17 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

IL MECHWARRIOR, on 12 September 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

at least try to read all the post before giving an answer, in my balance lasers have even lower heat and do not suffer of ghost heat, while ppcs are useless if used in more than 2 or 3, buecause they will spread more damage in %.

ac 2 do half heat

all ac weight less

LBX ac 20 does 25 damage, but you need to get under 100 meters

small pulse are very strong, in order to give a chance to light mechs.........


2.5 DAMAGE TO SRMS.....

etc etc etc etc......

READ ALL THE BALANCE BEFORE GIVING A COMMENT

No. The weight of ACs is their balance.
Also your "table" needs fixed so it can be read! Cause I see 0 heat for Gauss and AC2... NO.
Heat for PPCs should be 10 and 15.
No more damage for Lasers heat should remain.

[D A T A]

IN MY TABLE AC WEIGHT HAS BEEN REBAlanced, gauss heat is 0,5 and ac 2 heat is 0,5............all weapons had their improvement and because of that ppc nead to be 8 heat, PLEASE READ CAREFULLY THE PPC DAMAGE SPREAD FORMULA. with my formula 4 ppc is useless for Alpha strike, but good for sustained fire even without ghost heat and even with 8 fheat.........it is POSSIBLE just understand the ppc formula i wrote

Joseph Mallan, on 12 September 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

No. The weight of ACs is their balance.
Also your "table" needs fixed so it can be read! Cause I see 0 heat for Gauss and AC2... NO.
Heat for PPCs should be 10 and 15.
No more damage for Lasers heat should remain.

Joseph Mallan, on 12 September 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

No. The weight of ACs is their balance.
Also your "table" needs fixed so it can be read! Cause I see 0 heat for Gauss and AC2... NO.
Heat for PPCs should be 10 and 15.
No more damage for Lasers heat should remain.

-ghost heat is a nonsense and it is completely removed

-in order to avoid the effectiveness of 3+ ppcs, spread of particles.
a part of the damage is done to the hit part, the rest is spread all over the mech...... the % of damage that goes all around is incresed if you increase the number of ppc used at the same time, so boating is not allowed and we do not have stupid heat penality. SO WE CAN FINALLY USE PPCS FOR DPS: more possibilities= better game.
suggested formula (x= number of ppc used)
damage on hit part= (8-x)x
damage spread all around [10x-(8-x)x]/6

consider that no additional damage comes out from this formula

example, i shoot 5 ppcs, in total i do Always 50 damage, but in the hit part i do only (8-5)5= 15 damage, the remaining damage, is divided per 6 and spread in the mechs.
the less ppc you use, the more your damage is focused, but you can still use ppcs for dps.


i gave 10 damage 5 heat to large pulse and 6 heat to large to compete with other mid range ac weapons, that got little more damage and less weight, a bit more ammo

[Joseph Mallan]

Not a fan of how splash damage works in the game. Ghost heat is much more than Nonsense, but we do have a vocabulary limit!

ACs are limited by Ammo and mass not heat, so I don't want to see a laser be that heat efficient.

The issue is the convergence of direct fire weapons not the amount. My Atlas throws 60+ damage an alpha and has for months. But since the damage isn't all pin point there are no complaints. Every one is happy, I get to throw a {Scrap} load of damage and you don't die in an eye blink.

[Lightfoot]

Rasc4l, on 12 September 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Another one who misses the PPC warrior online. I do not.

MWO is now trapped in the nerf-cycle. Some of the nerfs have a very negative impact on the player base which is worse than having some weapon imbalance.

You have to start out by asking yourself why it's okay to core mechs in seconds with projectile based ballistic weapons, but, the PPC/ERPPC which is also projectile based is wrong. I mean the UAC-5 is the damage king (Medium Lasers are close second) and always has been, but it's only being looked at now.

The UAC-5 suddenly stands out because they nerfed all the popular, but lower DPS weapons. I can't figure out why this was not a big stop sign to the devs. Like why am I heavily nerfing the low DPS Gauss Rifle first? Players just don't like it when their mech gets destroyed and the Gauss is so obvious. And that's why the Gauss got nerfed. Just player hysteria. Any data base checking would show the UAC-5 doing double the DPS/ton of the Gauss at similar ranges.

I think what was bad about the PPC was using 6xPPCs and being allowed to get away with it by not having the mech be damaged by it. Blowing up actually. 3 PPCs should be allowed with no concern, it's the loadout of the Stock Awesome Prime, so if MWO has to resort to ghost heat/high heat/DHS 1.4 to nerf an ancient Inner Sphere mech, they will never get to the Clan Invasion. Even now they say it will be a heavily nerfed version of the Clans. Well sure, the game can't even support the stock AWS-8Q without everyone writhing in PPC hysteria on the forums.

They need to make the Mechs tough enough for their 2xRecharge. It's looking at the problem of insta-dead mechs from the opposite angle and that is bound to help make a better game. Trust me.



.

Edited by Lightfoot, 12 September 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Rasc4l]

IL MECHWARRIOR, on 12 September 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

at least try to read all the post before giving an answer, in my balance lasers have even lower heat and do not suffer of ghost heat, while ppcs are useless if used in more than 2 or 3, buecause they will spread more damage in %.

READ ALL THE BALANCE BEFORE GIVING A COMMENT

You're right, the low PPC heat stopped me at my tracks. I was comparing it to the current balance. Let's see:

LGLAS 9 6
ERLGLAS 9 7,5
LGPLSLAS 10 5

So my initial conclusion was false, you're not longing for PPC warrior. Instead, you want a no-heat warrior. I see no point in this.

Currently, they could boost small laser ranges and even dmg slighly for the pulse because its range will still remain horrible even with a little buff. Because of this, it is ok for SPL (1.24) to have even a bit higher DPS than medium lasers (1.25). Something like 1.3-1.4. Especially when collisions come, their range will make them a difficult weapon to use and not run into enemy mechs at the same time.

Other than that, the current weapon balance is quite ok, they're already looking into flamers, which is cool. Literally, they should buff the heat effect instead of DPS for that weapon.

The biggest battlefield balance issue is IMHO information warfare, not weapons. After UAC5 is fixed in the launch patch.

[Rasc4l]

Lightfoot, on 12 September 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

See, MWO is now trapped in the nerf-cycle.

Which has improved the game and made it more balanced. Slowly. But anyway made it better then worse, especially after the PPC heat fix. I'm quite sure the cycle is about to end.

Lightfoot, on 12 September 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

You have to start out by asking yourself why it's okay to core mechs in seconds with projectile based ballistic weapons, but, the PPC/ERPPC which is also projectile based is wrong. I mean the UAC-5 is the damage king (Medium Lasers are close second) and always has been, but it's only being looked at now.

This question has been asked and answered long ago in my head. The reason is simply the fact that PPC/ERPPC has unlimited ammo, which takes no tons and does not explode. With ballistics, you always carry a huge weapon + ammo and because MWO has double armor but not double ammo/ton, you have to carry a lot or you're out after coring that first mech and you're done. ERPPC/PPC player is NEVER done until his weapon is destroyed. People don't seem to appreciate this probably due to short match times in MWO. I hope planet takeovers go sometimes so that you have to go through 2 matches with the same mech if there's no backup or something. Dire situations like these are where high damage unlimited ammo weapons excel and the game should be balanced so. And I'm not saying they're not allowed to excel. Just that it comes with a cost.

Lightfoot, on 12 September 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

The UAC-5 suddenly stands out because they nerfed all the popular, but lower DPS weapons. I can't figure out why this was not a big stop sign to the devs. Like why am I heavily nerfing the low DPS Gauss Rifle first? Players just don't like it when their mech gets destroyed and the Gauss is so obvious. And that's why the Gauss got nerfed. Just player hysteria. Any data base checking would show the UAC-5 doing double the DPS/ton of the Gauss at similar ranges.

Err, what? UAC/5 stands out because they lowered the jam probability. Putting this somewhere halfway between what it was and what it is now would be fine.

Lightfoot, on 12 September 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

I think what was bad about the PPC was using 6xPPCs and being allowed to get away with it by not having the mech be damaged by it. Blowing up actually. 3 PPCs should be allowed with no concern, it's the loadout of the Stock Awesome Prime, so if MWO has to resort to ghost heat/high heat/DHS 1.4 to nerf an ancient Inner Sphere mech, they will never get to the Clan Invasion. Even now they say it will be a heavily nerfed version of the Clans. Well duh, the game can't even support the stock AWS-8Q without everyone writhing in PPC hysteria on the forums.

I agree that ghost heat shouldn't hinder at all iconical mechs such as 8-9 ML hunchback or 3 PPC awesome.

[D A T A]

TOTALLY AGREE WITH LIGHTFOOT,

to rasc4l about small pulse, go to see my table, i think you will find them interesting: increas damage but REDUCE RANGE= they are useless on medium, heavy and assault, but best weapon for light mechs, that do not care about range...........more diversification= better game.

also, in my opinion tha actual balance is HORRIBLE FOR 1 REASON: weapons are too similar between each other, meaning THERE IS TOO LITTLE ROLE DIVERSIFICATION.

if you enhance a specific part of each weapon you have more diversification,


i hope someone tells me how to make this page accept exel format: the way this table is there is not the correct way

Edited by IL MECHWARRIOR, 12 September 2013 - 09:11 AM.