268 replies to this topic

[DEMAX51]

Carlos Danger, on 18 September 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

I failed to find a match during my cadet bonus I must be Leet as well. Is there a secret handshake I get to learn?

DANGER...... DANGER

[Matthew Craig]

StainlessSR, on 18 September 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

From someone whom has a very middle of the road elo (I am fairly certain of this) your changes has undone the well balaceing of the matches that was seen just after the patch. Last night most games came down to 2 mechs on each side. No game I was in was an utter stomp. Today, it is right back to utter stomp after stomp. Please put it back to where you had it before as you have seamingly set it back to where it was pre-patch. To those whom are 1%ers, I am sorry that there isn't enough others to balance you. I am willing to wait 2-5 min for a balanced round if that is what it takes.

Sorry to say we simply can't leave certain players with such long times to find a match so we are slowly returning to settings closer to pre patch for now. As mentioned we'll be using all the data gathered to find better ways to get you those match qualities back potentially even better without degrading it for users at either end of the Elo spectrum.

[Chavette]

I don't think the waiting times are solely the source the players' pain. I had 1 or 2 yesterday solo, but the usual few in 12s too, and from my and groupmates' experiance, I can say the fact that 12 players have to ready up and launch it again, with a few needing to get notified/waited on (because of browsing, bathroom etc.) makes for more part of the hassle than credited for... same for solo, since there is no notification, sometimes it would take more than another 3 minutes for a user to notice the game gave up on finding a match.

In other words, you could get away with a longer wait time and thus better matches if there wasn't any user interaction required from the game every 3 minutes.

How about infinite time, with a more detailed description, with a cancel option? LoL for example has just that.

Edited by Chavette, 18 September 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[Matthew Craig]

Infinite time with an option to cancel is a definite possibility.

[kaffeangst]

I tried dropping solo this afternoon. Failed 9 times in a row - an absolute waste of a half-hour. Closed client.

Looks as if I can't play MWO at all unless I want to start a brand new account. I'm unwilling to wait through multiple failed launches (even when grouped) to play a short 6-8 minutes of actual game - only to begin the process over again. No thanks.

[TheStrider]

I'd report that last night (8-10pm EST) felt very wrong. I was running with 2 friends of varying skill levels, and we often ended up in matches where we would have multiple new players (asking basic questions, running trial/champ mechs).

Nearly every game was a one sided roll with us at the wrong end.

I haven't seen a new player in a very long time, so this was very shocking to us. All 3 of us are players who have been here since CB, and probably 2 of us have a positive w/l ratio.

Today (12-1pm EST) seemed much more normalized, even had a 10-12 match.

[Roland]

Seems like the matchmaker needs to just do what a game like COD does on XBL.

It says, "Looking for good games..."
"Found 50 good matches..."
"Attempting to join game (1 to N) of 50..."
"Failed to find match. Expanding set of matches. Looking for good games..."

repeat until it finds a game, with the expansion of matches simply being an expansion of the "fit" for a good game. So it matches you against Elos which are different from yours, as an example (although I would suggest expanding Elo range rather than tonnage, since tonnage tends to screw up games more, and make them feel less fair, than simply having someone on the other team who is better than you.)

I think this kind of iterative approach will work better in the long term, rather than trying to make a single one-size-fits-all balancing of the matchmaker. The reason for thinking this is that, as Matt Craig said, the issue is going to impact the edges of the Elo curve the most.

Thus, ideally, you want a system which tries to make a really good match most of the time, because for the majority of players, this will result in good matches without a long wait time.

But by introducing an iterative broadening of the matchmaking parameters, it allows the folks at the edges to still find games. It will take them longer, but it won't simply FAIL like it does now. It also will guarantee that they will find a game in some finite amount of time (I could work out the math here, but I'm too lazy at the moment after reading over design documents all day).

So, in summary, you can't really make a single matchmaking algorithm which will address the entire Elo curve, while also making most games well balanced. But an iterative approach can guarantee matches, while also optimizing balance.

[Lincoln Kotare]

We tried to play last night and only got 2 matches in two hours worth of trying the rest of the time was failed to find a match.

[Argent Usher]

But why i have so often an OPERATION 23?

Uneven matches (11vs.12) shouldn't exist anymore Matthew.

Happy fixing.

[PropagandaWar]

Woot Im Mid Elo with my 1.4 kdr Yess. Probably because I have thousands of games under my belt. Ha!

[Mawai]

Is it breaking badly for high ELO players?

Or is it breaking badly for folks playing Assault mechs?

Anecdotal though this is ...

Dropping in lights - very little wait time
Dropping in heavies - a little more wait time but not much
Dropping in an assault - waited about a minute to find a match (not much of a sample set though)

If the matchmaker is trying to balance tonnage as well as ELO then it would seem to me that, depending on the algorithm used, assaults might be more affected than other mech classes.

Is there any information on wait times relative to the type of mech being used as well as player ELO?

[Matthew Craig]

Thanks for the feedback. Roland I agree more feedback from the matchmaker can make the wait more bearable, its essentially doing what is described behind the scenes currently, looking for game, couldn't find, broadening criteria etc. but all you see is a spinning dial. So something that can definitely be considered for UI 2.0

Mawai, actually no we don't have that granularity currently, being able to see wait time per weight class or per Elo bracket, something we'll likely be adding shortly. We still have the weight class restriction tighter than the Elo restriction so you may well be right, we're continuing to adjust the values today as we continue to learn more and try and find the best balance.

[DEMAX51]

Matthew Craig, on 18 September 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Thanks for the feedback. Roland I agree more feedback from the matchmaker can make the wait more bearable, its essentially doing what is described behind the scenes currently, looking for game, couldn't find, broadening criteria etc. but all you see is a spinning dial. So something that can definitely be considered for UI 2.0

Mawai, actually no we don't have that granularity currently, being able to see wait time per weight class or per Elo bracket, something we'll likely be adding shortly. We still have the weight class restriction tighter than the Elo restriction so you may well be right, we're continuing to adjust the values today as we continue to learn more and try and find the best balance.

Matthew, I just want to say thanks for keeping up with this thread and the feedback so well/often. This type of communication is greatly appreciated.

[bluescreen]

I had the same Problem with uneven Matches. With a KDR of 2.1 it is in the moment very annoying. It took me today 18 Matches to get 2 wins. It always takes very long to get in a match. And then I drop only with Champions Trial Mechs. No Problem to fight with new players, but then you get as enemy only premade groups.
So it is not very funny to get owned by 12 : 1/0 and this has happend to me this evening about 10 times.
Another Problem is that in many games have in the beginning uneven teams. Often a team lacks one or two players.

Edited by bluescreen, 18 September 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[Matthew Craig]

DEMAX51: I similarly appreciate the constructive discussion

bluescreen: Yeah that is understandably frustrating and the main reason we want to get the ranges tightened up, you shouldn't be going up against pre-mades, seems we're not quite hitting the nail on the head but with this feedback/data I think we'll be able to figure out some more about what needs to happen to improve matters.

[PropagandaWar]

bluescreen, on 18 September 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

I had the same Problem with uneven Matches. With a KDR of 2.1 it is in the moment very annoying. It took me today 18 Matches to get 2 wins. It always takes very long to get in a match. And then I drop only with Champions Trial Mechs. No Problem to fight with new players, but then you get as enemy only premade groups.
So it is not very funny to get owned by 12 : 1/0 and this has happend to me this evening about 10 times.
Another Problem is that in many games have in the beginning uneven teams. Often a team lacks one or two players.

Could be your time zone. Your KDR really isnt relevant I thought. I think its win/loss. I have 6,100ish registered games 3600 wins/ 2500 loss. I think thats what they go by. I don't consider it to shabby and I think I only had to wait at most 2 minutes last night. I did however mainly play in medium mechs.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 18 September 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[Roland]

I appreciate Matt actually talking to us about this stuff.

[Ransack]

Matthew Craig, on 18 September 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

We monitored the data throughout the day yesterday and made adjustments to maintain a reasonable average wait time, that said we suspect it is right that very high or very low elo players are probably suffering longer than usual wait times. Reason being that Elo distribution looks like a bell curve so naturally players in the middle of the curve have more players they can match against.

We're looking over the data today and will continue to make adjustments that try to maintain as much of the restriction while maintaining our goals for wait times.

Please feel free to post your feedback on how long you are willing to wait to find a good match, and potential failed to find a match. A quick note on that, the failed to find a match can be a good thing for the match maker e.g. say 48 players trickle into the matchmaker the buckets fill up in the order the players join, now there might be two good matches between them but both buckets have only part of the players they need (like playing a game of cards where you are holding each others cards). When the failed to find a match triggers everyone hits launch again and now the buckets can grab the right players. So bear in mind that it does introduce a dynamic that helps the match maker, that simply extending the timer, or altering ranges does not.

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts as we continue to tune.

I am interested to know where I stand ELO wise. High? Low? I tend to think that I am in the middle, but my launch time have been very long since the patch.

Maybe you can look me up and PM me what range I am in (High, middle, low)


please...

[StainlessSR]

last few rounds have been mixed no outright stomps, getting nice rounds. Keep tweeking it is working!

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Matthew Craig, on 18 September 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

DEMAX51: I similarly appreciate the constructive discussion

bluescreen: Yeah that is understandably frustrating and the main reason we want to get the ranges tightened up, you shouldn't be going up against pre-mades, seems we're not quite hitting the nail on the head but with this feedback/data I think we'll be able to figure out some more about what needs to happen to improve matters.

I am glad you are looking into it, I am just surprised that the Elo and Matchmaker, which have been around forever are just now getting attention at launch. Getting into a match quickly, and having a well balanced match are crucial to attracting new customers.