11 replies to this topic

[alanwescoat]

S.T.A.R. Seat

This was largely inspired by the SimLight along with Loc Nar's Mechpit. It is extremely simple to build, reasonably lightweight, and like the SimLight, it folds up for easy storage or portability. (Video demonstration at the end)

The S.T.A.R. Seat is constructed out of exactly one-half of one sheet of 1/2" plywood (4' x 4' x 1/2"), nineteen dirt-cheap 2-7/8" hinges (72mm), 1/2" screws (12mm), and a tiny assortment of nuts and bolts.

Images:





Plan:



Video:

https://www.youtube....d&v=7S5412nBSg4

(It would be great if someone could show me how to embed the video instead of just having a link to it.)

UPDATE: The pedals were too close for comfort. I had a set of drawer runners for an old computer desk, so I simply mounted the pedals on those. Worked great. Now the position of the pedals is fully adjustable.

Edited by miSs, 10 October 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[Shamous13]

Good job! but seriously steeling your kids play mats JK.

[alanwescoat]

Just so everyone knows, no children were harmed during the construction of the S.T.A.R. Seat. In fact, my daughter helped during construction in every way she could, holding boards while I cut them, sweeping up sawdust, drilling holes, and painting. The puzzle mat was purchased specifically for this project, and leftover material was used for this Captain America shield for my daughter's Halloween costume. Other leftovers have been appropriated by her for her personal use.

[Shamous13]

My son isn't in to putting things together yet he just likes taking out all of the screws. What was the final cost?

[Foust]

Great project.

[alanwescoat]

Shamous13, on 20 September 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

My son isn't in to putting things together yet he just likes taking out all of the screws. What was the final cost?

These are Korean prices. Almost everything is a rip-off here. Probably in the US the essential wood and hardware could be had for about $45.

Essentials:
One sheet of plywood delivered: 45,000KRW (other half was used to make a workbench and tool wall)
Hinges: 10,000KRW
12mm screws delivered: 4,200KRW
Puzzle Mat: 13,000KRW (with leftover material used to make a costume prop and slippers)
Molding for holding cables: 5,000KRW (only used about half)
Miscellaneous Bolts and Nuts: 1,800KRW
Casters: 8,000KRW
Total: About $65 in counterfeit Federal-Reserve currency

Decorative Touches:
Paint (4L) and thinner (1l): 27,000KRW (only used half of each)
Glow-in-the-dark stickers: 5,000KRW (only used half)
Epoxy: 12,000KRW (only used about 1/4)
Glitter: 4,000KRW (used very little mixed into the epoxy to secure the stickers)
Total: About $45 in counterfeit Federal-Reserve currency

EDIT: Whenever, I plan something like this, the criteria are cheap, easy, and excellent, not necessarily in that order.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot Saitek X-65f 500,000KRW and Saitek Pro Flight Combat Rudder Pedals 300,000KRW. Totally rip-off prices including full US retail, shipping and customs-gangsters extortion fees.

Edited by alanwescoat, 20 September 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Loc Nar]

Nice. Is your project a derivative of the SimLight?


http://www.xflight.de/pe_sim_sml.htm

The SimLight was the initial spark for my newer cockpit. I wanted something more substantial than it though, and didn't need it to fold for LAN parties so it led me a different direction, although the spirit of compact/functional/minimalism was retained.Looking forward to seeing more.

I'll be honest and admit not a fan of the X-65, even for flight sims and even less so for MWO where even a Warthog is a paperweight. I like force sensing joysticks, but ones that work like real aircraft, which are actually a hybrid of movement and force sensing but unfortunately cost a fortune (add 6-$700 to the cost of a Warthog of Cougar...).

Take away the displacement and I lose all the ques and tactile feedback I need for flight (pilot/flight sim dork with established preferences...), which was DoD's same conclusion when they first implemented FSS sticks and pilots unanimously despised them. First ones were static and didn't move, just like the X-65. They ditched them and depending on the plane there are different ranges of movement from a few mm to several cm.

Luckily for the X-65 you can sort of simulate a similar mechanical arrangement by placing a 12mm foam backpacker pad under the base and fixing it in place in such a way that allows you to compress the stiff foam underneath as you apply inputs. I've heard it works pretty well, but I'm basing it off others reports. I would love to get one and convert it to have a gimbal that would allow the slight movement. I've looked at lots of pics of them torn down, and it would be one of the simpler gimbals that can be made for anyone comfortable with light machining.

For MWO, the subject is far more difficult to tackle, since it's a zero-order control application as outlined in my controls post above, which automatically makes any off-shelf joystick a poor solution. There are zero-order joysticks out there (Steel Battalion controller for one, but there remains much work to be done yet...), but generally you have to make one if you want one. My own started life as a Cougar, and Foust has successfully converted a T16000M to be one as well.

[alanwescoat]

Loc Nar, on 20 September 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Nice. Is your project a derivative of the SimLight?

Yes. Both you and the SimLight are specifically mentioned at the very beginning of the first post. I saw your extensive MechPit post and was impressed with the SimLight in relation to my needs. My goals were to both simplify and expand the SimLight, which I have done successfully. The inclusion of rollers in the back of your MechPit led me to choose to install casters on the back of my S.T.A.R. Seat.

While I have looked at your mod notes for controllers and paid attention to you informative dissertation on levels of controllers, those kinds of mods are beyond the scope of my general interest in doing myself. Money is also a severely limiting factor. Two and a half years passed before I could add the pedals to my rig after the purchase of the X-65f. While the Saitek controllers do leave some things to be desired, their rigid metal construction was a bonus as whatever I purchased had to last for years and years and years. If I tried such a mod and botched it, I would simply be completely out of luck as replacing anything is beyond my budget. Also, living in Korea necessitates that I must usually pay more than full retain for items such as this. Most hardcore gamers have more disposable income for this hobby than I do. However, if you do get a chance to modify the X-65f stick into a zero-order controller, I would be very interested in detailed notes on how you did it, and if it looks simple and straightforward enough, I might attempt it.

My stick does move very slightly, but the force-sensing stick serves a special purpose for me. I have a little wrist damage from long ago. Using a mouse or standard joystick for a long time quickly causes painful fatigue. Now that I have added the pedals and no longer need the Z axis on the stick, I am experiencing NO wrist fatigue while using my rig. Hence, making the stick move at all would be counter to what I want to accomplish with it.

I would be cool to convert it to a zero-order controller. What would be even cooler is if some company actually programmed a definitive and proper MechWarrior engine specifically designed to be operated from a HOTAS and pedals.

Thanks for your input, Loc Nar.

Edited by alanwescoat, 20 September 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Loc Nar]

Quote

Yes. Both you and the SimLight are specifically mentioned at the very beginning of the first post.

Goes back... rereads FIRST LINE... derp. Not sure how I missed that!

Money is (and was) a huge issue for me as well, which is the mother of invention for most of my projects me cause I can't afford any of the spensive toys I lust for. My Cougar was $180 (seen them sell as low as $120) shipped and the pots cost $5 apiece, but lots of 'sweat equity' involved. My rudder pedals were broken too so I got them for $100. Those are the only significant costs, and while $300 isn't terribly cheap, others drop 5 bills on just a Warthog for all the good it will do them so I hope I don't seem like I'm promoting checkbook solutions. I buy used gear off ebay, usually in distressed conditions... paying full retail (even 'cheap' westerner prices) is simply not an option for me.

Interesting about the X65 being preferable, particularly because you have an injury to your wrist. Most describe using it as being much more fatiguing for extended use, and if it's simply a matter of sensitivity any number of joysticks can be made extremely twitchy. However I am glad to hear it works good for your situation though, which is the real litmus test when it comes to these matters. I know there are also a lot of other folks that swear by it too once they get used to the difference in feel, or rather lack thereof. Also interesting you say there is some movement with yours, cause as I understand the consensus on this is that the stick is static...rigid... not even a hint of deflection. Is it your mounting job that is allowing deflection, or are you saying your example of an X-65 actually has some deflection incorporated into it?

The conversion I was talking about for an X65 however would not be to make it a zero-order controller though, there is no way to do that at all since you need very large ranges of unfettered motion in which to translate into aiming -this needs damped friction joints...there can not be any spring centering or other forms of resistance in which to excite pressure sensors. Force sensing is literally the opposite of the mechanical direction needed to achieve a zero-order joystick.

I was talking about 2 different ways to make it behave the way a real force sensing stick does... like in an F-16. A real F-16 stick moves about +/-6mm for full deflection, and it makes all the difference for being able to repeat extreme precision with minimal fatigue -for most users. The first way I mention is to merely place the otherwise unmodified stick on top of a 12mm foam sleeping pad like sold in camping supply stores. By placing the spongy mat under the base of the stick (velcro stick to the pad, then velcro pad to your arm rail) you wind up with a similar amount of tiny deflection as the pad compresses under loads as you move it. Some make a fancy version of this where essentially the base is mounted to a spring plate.

The way I would do it however would be to fabricate a metal pivoting ginbal with bearings for it. It would not be easy, just in relative terms it would still be easier than constructing most other types of gimbals since the range of motion is so slight.

Pedals are indeed a much better option instead of the z axis, and I couldn't agree more that it's a shame MWO was not coded to have parity between controllers. It would have been entirely possible, but they chose to court the kbm crowd instead and die is cast so at this point all we can do is use a mouse or off shelf joystick or make one better suited to this environment.

[alanwescoat]

Loc Nar, on 20 September 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Goes back... rereads FIRST LINE... derp. Not sure how I missed that!

LOL...The pictures were probably more interesting.

Loc Nar, on 20 September 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Interesting about the X65 being preferable, particularly because you have an injury to your wrist. Most describe using it as being much more fatiguing for extended use...

I should clarify. It is fatiguing in a different way from mice or standard joysticks. With mice and standard joysticks, I experience wrist fatigue. Those who are new to the X-65f are likely to experience hand fatigue instead. The hand fatigue for me is no problem because all of the muscles in my hands are in good shape. It's only the outside of my right wrist that is a problem, a point most stressed by using a mouse or standard stick. Now that I am quite accustomed to the X-65f, I no longer experience much of the hand fatigue, though when I first used it, it was pretty serious.

Loc Nar, on 20 September 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

..., and if it's simply a matter of sensitivity any number of joysticks can be made extremely twitchy.

Actually, the stick is much too twitchy as it is. That issue is twofold. The drivers are inadequate for reducing the sensitivity properly. I can curve how much pressure on the stick sends a signal to the game, but this is insufficient. Increasing the force needed simply increases the amount of pressure I have to put on the stick before the game uses that same signal to move the torso too fast. [EDIT: Further tweaking has significantly reduced the twitchiness.] The real issue, I think, is simple lack of inclusion in MWO of a joystick-sensitivity slider. They did it for the mouse. There's no reason they can't do it for a stick. My workaround is to use the joystick for rapid aiming and the mouse stick on the throttle for fine aiming. This works rather well. Also, I'm still getting used to using the stick for aiming and the pedals for steering. My experience with joysticks goes back to the Atari 2600, and using the X-axis for turning is only natural. With practice, I don't think there will be any long-term problem.

Loc Nar, on 20 September 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Also interesting you say there is some movement with yours, cause as I understand the consensus on this is that the stick is static...rigid... not even a hint of deflection. Is it your mounting job that is allowing deflection, or are you saying your example of an X-65 actually has some deflection incorporated into it?

My particular stick has a hint of deflection. Possibly this is a factory defect, mine wiggles from the base slightly. I might give the padding idea a shot just to see how it feels.

Loc Nar, on 20 September 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Pedals are indeed a much better option instead of the z axis, and I couldn't agree more that it's a shame MWO was not coded to have parity between controllers. It would have been entirely possible, but they chose to court the kbm crowd instead and die is cast so at this point all we can do is use a mouse or off shelf joystick or make one better suited to this environment.

What is really sad here is the insistence on using the Cry3 Engine. All any gaming company that was serious about updating the MechWarrior gaming franchise would have to do is either license or reverse engineer Activision's MechWarrior 2 engine, tweak it slightly, and update the graphics. The only truly essential tweaks would be to free the (undocumented) POV control from using a toggle and directional keys (the way MWO uses a toggle and the mouse) so that POV and turret could both be changed independently along with adding in completely independent aiming for the arms the way MechWarrior 3 did. Possibly they would also need to configure a separate set of controls for aiming jump jets the way MechWarrior 4 did. It's really sad that all of the proper engine work has already been done but is scattered in bits and pieces between Activision and MicroSoft with the updated graphics resting between the MWLL team and PGI. Also, a fully-integrated radio would be nice.

The worst part is that nearly two decades of consoles dominating the market has led to dumbed-down gaming. That makes me sad because I see some of the creative people in this forum working to make button panels and the like for their simpits when the fact of the matter is that I don't even need all of the functionality of my HOTAS in order to fully operate my mech. Of course, I'm working from a different paradigm. While the simpit builders are working on boxing in a realistic cockpit, I'm waiting with high hopes for the Occulus Rift in conjunction with something like the Razer Tiamat 7.1 surround headphones with an extra subwoofer under the seat. Using an HMD, anything other than a HOTAS is a liability.

Back in 1996, I ran a short-lived virtual-reality business called Total Immersion. The rigs I built featured the Forte Technologies VFX1 HMD, so I know just how awesome an excellent HMD can be. With the development of very cheap high-resolution displays on cell phones and advancements in motion tracking with things like the Nintendo Wii and Kinect, I have been flabbergasted that the HMD has not made a comeback.

Here's how I envision mech gaming. New gaming mobos have analog 7.1+2.0 audio outputs. I put in earbuds for the 2.0. This is for the radio, one channel for team, and the other for all. The HMD incorporates high-quality 7.1 like the Razer Tiamat (stereo sound on the VFX1 was awesome!). This is for the game sounds. All of that would connect to audio analog to bypass the irritating HDCP limitations of HDMI. This would enable easy splitting of the LFE channel for a genuine subwoofer mounted either under the seat or to the back of the seat (I used to have VR subwoofer backpacks that strapped nicely to the bucket car seats I was using for cockpits). The seat of course would have HOTAS and pedals and nothing else (because with the HMD, you couldn't see the rest anyway). Motion tracking on the HMD would take care of pilot POV. Stick moves turret. Pedals steer. Toe brakes crouch, stop, or fire jump jets. Throttle is throttle. Mouse stick on throttle aims arms.

Basically, sit in your chair, put on your HMD, and BE IN THE GAME. Actually, I could mount the computer on the back of my S.T.A.R. Seat along with hooks to hold the HMD, and voila! I would have a fully collapsible and portable Total Immersion gaming rig.

Edited by alanwescoat, 20 September 2013 - 11:58 PM.

[Dazzer]

Great chair and that mechwarrior looks deadly !

[Thunder Lips Express]

great idea man, looks cool, and what an adorable aspiring mechwarrior!