54 replies to this topic

[Alex Wolfe]

Lately, there has been a lot of talk from the developers about "player avatar tiers", "entry level" and "top end" of weight spectrum, and "progression" between tiers, as this recent quote from Bryan Ekman describes:

miSs, on 23 September 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Answer from Bryan: An Atlas is the top end of the Assault spectrum. Assault class starts at 80 tons and go to 100 tons. With that logic in mind a starting Assault `Mech is not the Atlas, rather the Awesome or some other 80 ton assault chassis. So no, we’re not redefining, and saying there is a linear progression from Light to Assault, rather that every weight class should be viable AND still have a progression with that class range.

By virtue of how our economy works, there CAN be a natural player progression from Light to Assault, which is not necessarily a bad thing, however it’s most definitely not a requirement with our Trial `Mech and Cadet Bonus systems.

However, one glance at the game's economy system reveals that none of it, besides "mech tiers", exists. Not only aren't all classes viable, but there is no "progression within class range" whatsoever. There is no "natural progression from Light to Assault". Allow me to explain. Let's have a look at some of the currently available player avatars and their prices:

mid-tier Light: RVN-3L w/ECM: 11.1 million
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...42bd293399e6ffb

low tier Medium: KTO-20 w/LRM30: 12.2 million
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4fb26b942c3a846

mid-upper tier Heavy: CTF-4X 4xAC5: 12.5 million
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2ac611384d25a18

bottom tier Assault: really, really poor 4LL AWS-9M... 18.7 million.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...af462dff5b14fef

Top-of-the-top tier Assault: Warboss AS7-D-DC: 16.2 million
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dd02a8d391b511f

First of all, the light, medium and heavy mechs are all within 1.5 million of each other. That price difference is negligible, so effectively you could pick any of those. Let's assume you bought the Raven and equipped it - now, how does "progression" to Assault class looks like from there?

The answer: there is none. Buying a Raven doesn't make it easier to buy an Atlas, the top tier avatar. It doesn't even make it easier to buy a medium or another light. All it means is that you're 11.1 million lighter, which makes getting the next chassis harder, regardless of its tier. It's a 20 hour grind for the next one, no matter what you do. That's not what "progression" means, because the tiers aren't connected to each other. Naturally, if you chose poorly and spent your money on a bottom-tier player avatar, like a Dragon, it won't make getting a better mech any easier either. It just means you're trapped and effectively cannon fodder until you can afford something else. Better luck next time!

Lastly, the bottom tier Awesome, probably one of the worst mechs in the game, costs a cool 18.7 million. In comparison, one of the best mechs, the Warboss, costs 16.2. Again, if you pick a "bottom tier assault", both weight- and performance-wise, what's the progression like? Same answer: there is none. You chose poorly, you have a trash-tier player avatar for the cost of nearly 40 hours of grind, may Blake have mercy on your soul. All it means is that you have less money. You don't "progress" towards the next one. You regress.



TL; DR: There is no progression in MWO, just bad choices. Pick your robots wisely, or suffer. May all-connecting Blake have mercy on new, uninformed players blowing their hard-earned C-bills on bottom level avatar deathtraps.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 23 September 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

hmm I guess PGI should double the c-bill price of assaults and rescale the cbill cost then.

[Rina Fujimoto]

RIP Alex, jettisoned too soon.

[Alex Wolfe]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 23 September 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

hmm I guess PGI should double the c-bill price of assaults and rescale the cbill cost then.

It still wouldn't matter. If you spend 5 million to buy trash, you're left with 5 million worth of trash, instead of top tier player avatar Atlas you could live in because it's always relevant.

And spending that 5 million means you need 10 hours more to get the top tier player avatar. It doesn't help. "Progression" means going from 1 to 2 to 3 naturally. There's no progression in MWO, because the steps aren't connected.

The only progression to speak of is your C-bill account, showing your progression towards buying the next robot. If you buy a non-top tier robot, you have less towards a top tier one.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 23 September 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[The Boz]

It is worrying that a developer would say that going from an Awesome to an Atlas is a straight upgrade, and is working as intended.

[merz]

there is no linear progression in battletech. mechs don't really represent a linear tiered progression. even within the same weight class, there are mechs that vastly differ in application despite similar tonnage. cicada, often considered a light, comes just 5 tons under the clearly medium centurion or AC20-equipped stock hunchback. Some weapon system or equipment are typically seen as more advanced, but offset through high battle value to reflect the cost of their deployment. money is typically the limiter, and fielding some things is not cost-effective when the job could be done just a spread of more affordable options. That which you can afford to lose, in other words.

But even amongst light mechs, you have a really wide range of specialisations. The 35-ton Hollander - same weight as the raven - comes stock with a gauss rifle.



The entire point of this game is that it does not have useless mechs that are outlcassed by a 'superior tier' as you grind through them. it is more about finding a particular chassis that you enjoy playing most, finding your own lay style between the options given for it and making these combinations most effective.

its super fun to watch people seize onto every word and try to take it for a spin. in an environment that toxic, its a small wonder the developers bother to communicate with the people crewing this failboat forum at all.

Edited by merz, 23 September 2013 - 03:30 PM.

[The Boz]

merz, on 23 September 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

The entire point of this game is that it does not have useless mechs that are outlcassed by a 'superior tier' as you grind through them. it is more about finding a particular chassis that you enjoy playing most, finding your own lay style between the options given for it and making these combinations most effective.

This.
It really frightens me when I think about devs that disagree with this.
It also makes me happy that I haven't forked over any cash for this game yet, and I've been thinking about it quite a lot lately...

[Ryvucz]

Alex Wolfe, on 23 September 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

It still wouldn't matter. If you spend 5 million to buy trash, you're left with 5 million worth of trash, instead of top tier player avatar Atlas you could live in because it's always relevant.

And spending that 5 million means you need 10 hours more to get the top tier player avatar. It doesn't help. "Progression" means going from 1 to 2 to 3 naturally. There's no progression in MWO, because the steps aren't connected.

The only progression to speak of is your C-bill account, showing your progression towards buying the next robot. If you buy a non-top tier robot, you have less towards a top tier one.

Trash?

If by trash you mean a mech you cannot pilot well, then I suppose so.

Who buys 5 million worth of trash when you can go to the nearest garbage dump in your area?

That's just INSAAAANE!

[Corvus Antaka]

Alex Wolfe, on 23 September 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

It still wouldn't matter. If you spend 5 million to buy trash, you're left with 5 million worth of trash, instead of top tier player avatar Atlas you could live in because it's always relevant.

And spending that 5 million means you need 10 hours more to get the top tier player avatar. It doesn't help. "Progression" means going from 1 to 2 to 3 naturally. There's no progression in MWO, because the steps aren't connected.

The only progression to speak of is your C-bill account, showing your progression towards buying the next robot. If you buy a non-top tier robot, you have less towards a top tier one.

Well then I suppose everyone will one day only buy an atlas by your theory, and that is all we will ever see.

[Alex Wolfe]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 23 September 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Well then I suppose everyone will one day only buy an atlas by your theory, and that is all we will ever see.

Atlas? Not neccessarily, it was just an example of one top tier player avatar.

One of the top tier player avatars, like, say, Highlanders in the days of PPC/guass meta? Yes, by all means. People who realize the ebb and flow of the metagame do that all the time. Observe:



The entire point of the thread is that there is no "progression" from Awesome to Victor to Stalker to Highlander to Atlas. Buying the previous, arguably weaker and "lower" tier only makes you less able to afford the "next" one.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 23 September 2013 - 04:00 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

You can buy the mech at the light end of the weight class earlier than you can buy the heavier ones. If you really, really feel the need to get into that weight class, you can do so at the light end, then save up for another. If you want to swap out as early as possible, that will generally mean the next weight in the class, and so on.

It may not be a progression you like, and you may not like all mechs you would have to drive to make the progression, but it is a progression, of sorts. All your ranting and crying about how terrible the "grind" is (boy, you should try playing a game with a real grind) doesn't change that. Happily, it's a progression you can opt out of by simply waiting a wee bit longer before blowing the dough you've been saving up and buying the mech you want, instead of the first one available.


Seriously, with all that's wrong with this game you have to go out of your way to find ridiculous [scrap] like this to cry about?

Edited by Destined, 23 September 2013 - 05:56 PM.
language

[Alex Wolfe]

Ryvucz, on 23 September 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Trash?

If by trash you mean a mech you cannot pilot well, then I suppose so.

Not all mechs are born equal. Some are lower tier, some upper, and some are top tier player avatars. Even the devs admit it.

Some are trash, especially mediums, which is why you don't see many in the matches despite their 10-14 million price tag (outfitted). If you can do well with a handicap, more power to you. Doesn't change it from BEING a handicap.



I can pilot them. They still do little-to-nothing what a heavy cannot do better for a similar price, and are not a stepping stone towards heavies/assaults, only money drain/newbie traps.

Trash.

OneEyed Jack, on 23 September 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

You can buy the mech at the light end of the weight class earlier than you can buy the heavier ones. If you really, really feel the need to get into that weight class, you can do so at the light end, then save up for another. If you want to swap out as early as possible, that will generally mean the next weight in the class, and so on.

So you buy a lighter, worse mech rather than spend another 2 hours grinding for a better player avatar. Then, if you want a better one further down the line, you're 15-20 hours of grind behind because of that worse mech you had bought earlier. Or 40+ hours, if you choose to master the worse chassis before that.

None of those puts you any closer to a better mech, it just puts you further and further behind. Hence "no progression".

Quote

Seriously, with all that's wrong with this game

There is a great many things, yes.

Quote

you have to go out of your way to find ridiculous smeg like this to cry about?

And it's not ridiculous, but a very real problem for a newbie who buys a Hunchback J because it seems "affordable", then learns it's terrible and it just put him 20 hours away from an actually decent mech. It's not a stepping stone, it's a trap. He won't "progress" from it, only be set back by his purchase.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 23 September 2013 - 04:51 PM.

[The Boz]

Great job, OneEyed Jack, you managed to miss the point of the thread entirely.

[Deathlike]

Here's a quick list of "affordable mech chassis" that won't you an arm an a leg to make the most of:
Centurion
Hunchback

Congrats, those are the only two mechs worth spending the 8m cadet bonus on to grind out and master and an "affordable" pace while having the best loadouts for those chassis and its variants.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 September 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Deathlike, on 23 September 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Here's a quick list of "affordable mech chassis" that won't you an arm an a leg to make the most of:
Centurion
Hunchback

Congrats, those are the only two mechs worth spending the 8m cadet bonus on to grind out and master and an "affordable" pace while having the best loadouts for those chassis and its variants.

Indeed. The two problems I have with that, though, is:

1) Newbies have no idea about that, so they're likely to buy a bottom tier c-bill sink, sapping a great deal of possible fun from their experience

2) If you want to master one of them, after all the chassis, mandatory dubs, endo, super-expensive Cent D if you picked the Cent... you're left with a chassis that's medium tier at best, and having spent about two Atlases' worth of money setting them up.

They're relatively cheap to set up, but objectively speaking, they're not worth the money and time it'll take.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 23 September 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Bloody Moon]

You don't have to argue against miSs' comment, anyone who played this game for a while will see the faulty logic in it.

There are games where having tiers in "player avatars" is acceptable for example WoT, obviously it does not make sense to try to balance WW1 tanks against WW2 ones, not to mention post-WW2 (ofc their matchmaker is still trash, but at least it limits the differences somewhat). Then there are games like DoTA, LoL or MWO where every "player avatar" can be matched against any other "avatar", in these games the "avatars" should be balanced otherwise no one will use them.

Common sense.

Edit: MWO could be like WoT if we'd have multiple eras to pick mechs and equipment from, but not like this. For example 3025 games, Clan invasion games, 3066 games etc with every new player starting in 3025 having to unlock a few mechs there before he can move on to the later era.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 23 September 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Kitane]

A progression in this game? The only progression I am aware of is the search for a mech that will be a perfect match for me.

And it might be any mech in the game.

There never was any progression from a Commando to a Jenner, from a Cicada to a Kintaro/Shadowhawk, from a Dragon to an Orion or from an Awesome to an Atlas.

[Igor Draskovic]

Well MW was always an arms race, but it was my understanding that "quirks" were supposed to fix this issue at least within the same weight class. It seems that PGI never took this idea very far.

[Deathlike]

Alex Wolfe, on 23 September 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Indeed. The two problems I have with that, though, is:

1) Newbies have no idea about that, so they're likely to buy a bottom tier c-bill sink, sapping a great deal of possible fun from their experience

Yes, welcome to MWO newbies.

Quote

2) If you want to master one of them, after all the chassis, mandatory dubs, endo, super-expensive Cent D if you picked the Cent... you're left with a chassis that's medium tier at best, and having spent about two Atlases' worth of money setting them up.

They're relatively cheap to set up, but objectively speaking, they're not worth the money and time it'll take.

They are fun (for me anyways), but let's be honest... people will either complain the the hunchy's hunch is hard to guard, or the Centurion is too limited rangewise.

There's no win-win, its just better than whatever insane idea PGI is imagining when nerfing rewards to undesirable levels.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 September 2013 - 05:12 PM.

[Suicidal Snowman]

There's only player progression, and a narrowing down of roles. Anyone who believes that point of this game is to buy a Commando and grind your way up through every chassis of every class deserves the Sisyphean Hell that the cbill grind is going to be. Or they could save themselves the time and remember that this is a simulation game, not an arcade shoot 'em up.

Also, if an atlas is as 'top tier' and 'invincible' and certain individuals claim it is, why do they routinely get annihilated by mechs of all other weight classes? There's only player/skill/role progression in this game.

Edited by Suicidal Snowman, 23 September 2013 - 05:33 PM.