6 replies to this topic

[Nighthound]

LT;DnR : Weapon balance and Mech balance are Impossible so we need an external balancing mechanic. (Idea how to inside)


Hi everyone,

I was rather quiet the last couple of months because the game wasn't really what I wanted it to be or what I thought it could be, and thus took a break from it for about 6 months. After reading all the Patch notes to bring me up to speed to what had changed and being hopeful again that it actually would be playable again, I played a few rounds solo and then reconnected with my old crowd to play a few more rounds.
The game actually had changed quite a bit and some bugs were fixed, some new bugs had crept in, but after a week or so however I realized that the biggest problem was still the same. In spite the changes to the matchmaker and the Dev's statements about how we should see improvements, I can't say that I do. 80-90% of the matches I play are still one side stomping the other and there was nothing I could do about it. No amount of pleading, ordering or swearing would change the fact that one side starts with an advantage of one kind or the other, so given all the facts (which we don't have) you could bet on the outcome of a match and win in most cases.
This is really disturbing to me because that means that I can play as good as I want or as good as I am able to play and it will not change the result in all but a few cases. However if I throw matches (which isn't really a thing to consider) I could change the outcome in some cases but only for the worse..... A depressing thought really.
I blamed a lot of things for me not being able to change the outcome of a match, my teammates, my enemy, my Mechs, PGI, weapons and what have you, but most of all I blamed the matchmaker, after all, that little piece of code is the root of my problems with this game.
Think about it! Elo was designed for a 1 vs. 1 game (chess) where both sides meet each other on equal footing (both have the same pieces), so the only difference is their skill. And that is what elo does; it represents the player skill in a tangible, quantifiable number, nothing more, nothing less. Of course it works for different games as well, but it will never work for this game on its own. Not without some serious backup.
No one will ever be able to balance the Weapons and Equipment in MWO, because it is absolutely impossible, because the weapons work so very differently from each other. Added to that is the other impossibility of balancing the Mechs. Most Variants are unbalancable within their Chassis and no amount of perks, quirks and tuning will change that.
If you now take those two parts and let players do with them what they want within certain rules and then try to balance it, it will make the Herulean tasks look like childsplay.
So what we need is another tangible and qantifiable number that expresses what a Mech can do. Battletech figured this out about 20 Years ago and I have to say that I am rather supprised at PGI that they have not. Instead they want to go with tonnage limits and restrictions that have marginal worth at best.

So here is my take on a Battleratingsystem for MWO.
I am rather good with numbers but I am no mathematician so I borrowed the BV2.0 System from BattleTech and altered it to suit MWO.

1. Weapon BR
In simple and rough terms Weapon BR is calculated by multiplying Range, Damage and a special case Modifier.
The only thing not straight forward in this calculation is the Modifier, which includes stuff like, Type (Energy, Ballistic,...), spread (LB-X, Missiles), duration (Lasers) and travel speed (ACs, Missiles). I would like to call this Modifier "chance to hit" as it represents the inherent chance of each weapon to do its full damage. Also Ammo Weapons only are worth 90% of their normal BR because Ammo is calculated separately and later added.

Weapon BR = Dmg * CtH * ( ( Range - MinRange ) / 10 + ( MaxRange - Range ) / 30 ) [ * 0.9 for Ammo Weapons]

1.b. Ammo BR
Simply 1/16 of Weapon BR.

Ammo BR = Weapon BR / 16

2. Offensive BR
Is the sum of all Weapons equipped on the Mech, modified for High Alpha Builds and multiplied by heat efficiency and the Mechs tonnage. In BattleTech each Weapon that has the capability of decapitating a Mech with 1 hit gets a 1.5 modifier. As this is not possible in MWO I think that a player who equips a Mech with enough Weapons so that they are capable of decapitating a Mech with 1 shot should get the same modifier for those weapons (ACs, not LB-X, PPC, Gauss [e.g. 2 Gauss + 1 AC/5).

Offensive BR = ( Sum of all Weapon BRs [ * 1.5 if direct hit 33+ Dmg ] ) * HeatEfficiency + Tonnage

3. Defensive BR
This is calculated by adding everything that gives the Mech added survivability, like Armor, Internal Structure, ECM, AMS, BAP, JumpJets and other Equipment, minus everything that reduces survivability, multiplied by speed and size. (The size modifier could be placed in the ItemStats or corresponding Mech file to be easily changeable instead of beeing calculated by the system, which would allow different modifiers regardless of weight to take easily hitable locations or hitbox bugs into account)

DBR = Armor * 2.5 + Structure + Equipment - ( 15 * Locations with Ammo or Gauss ) - [ 30 for IS XL Engine ] * ( ( 100 - Tonnage ) / 500 + 1 + Speed / 100 )

4. Mech BR
Simply add offensive BR and defensive BR together to get the final BR for that Mech.

BR = Offensive BR + Defensive BR

5. Pilot BR
This would be the Point where the elo system kicks in. In BattleTech the best Pilots (0 Pilot/0 Gunnery) have a BV multiplier of 2.05 while the worst Pilots (7 Pilot / 7 Gunnery) have a BV multiplier of 0.6 with the average and most common IS Pilots (5 Pilot / 4 Gunnery) at 1.0 and average Clan Pilots (4 pilot / 3 Gunnery) at 1.25. Now getting the elo range of 0 - 2800 with new and average pilots at 1300 cramped into the 0.6 - 2.05 and average 1.0 BV System will be a bit tricky but should be doable.

Solo BR = BR * Pilot BR

6. Group BR
Last stage would be to balance out players that are playing as a team, and the size of the team should be taken into account to remove the need for split queues. Balancing this out will be the hardest part. I would start to add a 0.05 modifier to each Mech per person in a group. So solo players would get nothing, a 2 man group would get their Mech's BR increased by 10%, a 4 Man group would get 20% and 12 man group 60% .... you get the picture.

Group BR = Sum of Solo BRs * ( 1 + (Players in group * 0.05) )

__________________________________________________________________________

I haven't calculated every possible scenario with this but to me these Numbers feel right, and it is rather simple to implement as Paul said in AtD 49 the UI and Matchmaker have to be tweaked anyway.

Besides balanced matchmaking this system would allow for easy modification if say a Mech or a Weapon is a bit buggy. Simply increase or decrease the BR of the Weapon or the Mech and the system at least acknowledges the bug instead of players exploiting the situation.


with kind regards
Nighthound

Edited by Nighthound, 22 October 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[mike29tw]

Ghost matchmaking is here.
Called it.

On a more serious note, there has already been numerous thread about why BV or anything like it won't work in an 12 vs. 12 arena shooter.

edit - to clarify, this messes gameplay balance with matchmaking. What would happen is that if a top player is using a killer mech with a killer loadout, what does the matchmaker do with him? THROW SOME CRAPPY PLAYER WITH INFERIOR LOADOUT ON HIS TEAM. Doesn't change the fact that certain weapons are OP or UP.

When there is some balance issues, I'm more inclined to fix the issue rather than mess with the matchmaker to make sure someone using OP weapon is not going to win the match.

Edited by mike29tw, 22 October 2013 - 11:44 AM.

[Nighthound]

mike29tw, on 22 October 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

On a more serious note, there has already been numerous thread about why BV or anything like it won't work in an 12 vs. 12 arena shooter.

Why shouldn't it work? There a dozens of games out there that use Battle Rating Systems to determine how strong something is. This game will never be balanced in it self, it is simply imbossible without throwing everything overboard and starting from scrach without any regard to MechWarrior and/or Battletech. So if internal balance is impossible then you need external balance simple as that.

mike29tw, on 22 October 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

edit - to clarify, this messes gameplay balance with matchmaking. What would happen is that if a top player is using a killer mech with a killer loadout, what does the matchmaker do with him? THROW SOME CRAPPY PLAYER WITH INFERIOR LOADOUT ON HIS TEAM. Doesn't change the fact that certain weapons are OP or UP.

You are totally right that is exactly what would happen. And it is exactly what should happen. And if 4 crack playeris in killer mechs group up the rest, should be (sorry no insult meant) noobs in light mechs with crappy loadout so the 12 pugs on the other side stand a chance at winning.
These Days we have some arrogant ****** running around congratualing themselves and the enemy for good close game before the game even has started. That can't be right, can it?

OP or UP is irrelevant if the numbers represent them correctly. If you drive around in 10,000 BR Atlas and it takes 10 1,000 BR Locusts with Machine Guns to kill you, well then that is what it takes.

mike29tw, on 22 October 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

When there is some balance issues, I'm more inclined to fix the issue rather than mess with the matchmaker to make sure someone using OP weapon is not going to win the match.

You misunderstood me quite a bit there. I am not saying that BR is the solution for all bugs. I am saying it is a bandage for the time it takes to fix it.

Edited by Nighthound, 22 October 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[paxmortis]

Battle values / rating works good, we testing it in the 3025 tourney and in the future will test it with all tech.

About the different points of your battle rating.

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1.
Weapon BR = Dmg * CtH * ( ( Range - MinRange ) / 10 + ( MaxRange - Range ) / 30 ) [ * 0.9 for Ammo Weapons]

How you calculate the chance to hit? For example for a LRM it depend on the terrain, the target, the pilot etc.
Why you not calculate as a mimimum the cooldown and duration, too?

To give you an example here to. The AC2 makes around 15 damage during 4 second, the AC20 makes 20. Best for you would be to use the DPS value and of course the HPS value.

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1b.
Ammo BR = Weapon BR / 16

Why Weapon BR / 16? If you not use the games files. I think it would be better to calculate damaged per shot * shot / 3 or 4 or what every you wants.

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2.
Offensive BR = ( Sum of all Weapon BRs [ * 1.5 if direct hit 33+ Dmg ] ) * HeatEfficiency + Tonnage
Okay the Sum of all weapons, thats okay.
HeatEfficiency okay.
Why not the heat threshold?
Why the mech tonnage? A fast medium mech would be cheaper as a assault?
High alpha build modifier okay, it could be a part. But not only if you have more as 33 dmg you get a modifier of 1.5. Example: If i build an mech with a AC10, a LRM 15 and a SRM 6. Its not a highj alpha mech but get the modifier.

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3.
DBR = Armor * 2.5 + Structure + Equipment - ( 15 * Locations with Ammo or Gauss ) - [ 30 for IS XL Engine ] * ( ( 100 - Tonnage ) / 500 + 1 + Speed / 100 )

Amor * 2.5 okay.
Structure okay but no difference between standard and endo steel?
How the equipment will calculate?
Minus for ammo locations or gauss rifle, okay.
Minus for XL, why? Of course it reduce you defensive value but increase you offense. Because you can load more weapons, heat sinks etc.
100 - Tonnage, okay could be used.
Speed *100, okay could be used, too.

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4.
BR = Offensive BR + Defensive BR

The sum of all. Nothing to say about it.

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5.
Solo BR = BR * Pilot BR

How you will get the ELO value when PGI not show you that? You can get also not the personal statistic. You can not calculate this values because you have no values for it.

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6.
Same as in point 5.

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Have you a template or a calculation ready up, where we can see the values calculated with a mech?

Finally i must say i support any idea to give MWO a value of any kind and need to say thanks for your work. But i think also that many points missing in your battle rating.

Edited by paxmortis, 23 October 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[Nighthound]

1. I just call it chance to hit to give it a name that is more or less a representation of it's function.
If you look at your stats>weapon stats you can see your own chances of hitting a target with each weapon. While this is a personal statistic, the Developers would have the ability to retreive a global version of this. i.e. How much damage does each shot with each weapon fired actually do on average. This would directly include stuff like duration for lasers as pulse lasers would automaticaly have a higher damage per shot fired.

In my case for example :
Medium Laser : 31,731 times fired with 86,760 total damage done, with a given damage of 5 per full hit giving it a chance to hit of 54,7 %

I doubt that this number if looked at at a global scale will change at all over time unless something is done to the weapons stats. In any case a week or two of actual ingame statistics would tell you by how much this numer would have to change if at all.

Cooldown and Heat are already in the game and in this calculation later in form of Heat Efficiency. The faster a Weapon fires the more damage it does but also the heat it generates so this is in direct proportion and putting both into a formula would give it more weight then what it's worth.

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2. Heat Threashold is nice but I doubt it is neccessary because the real value of any mech is about what it can do when it counts. So beeing able to fire 2-3 alphas and the have to walk away for a minute to cool down isn't really effective and it is covered to some extend by heat efficiency. I don't really care if he is capable of firing 2,3 or 8 alphas before overheating what matters is how good he can sustain his firepower.
The Tonnage is a remnant from the original BV calculation, it just lends weight to the fact that the heavier the Mech the more Power it has ..... at least in general.
No, you got that wrong, or maybe I didn't express myself correctly, in any case this modifier is only applied if the total damage of direct damage weapons (AC,PPC,Gauss) eaquals or exceeds 33 Points, but is then applied to all weapons.

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3. No there is no difference. Because you save weigth you will put more stuff into that mech and that is already calculated. Same as with the HpS above putting it in twice gives it more representation then it deserves.
XL Engines need this because the advantage of having more free tonnage is covered like I said with endo and ferro but the vulnerability is not covered so it deserves its place. Besides it's just being handled like 2 more ammo locations.

The Equipment has to be guessed unfortunately because there is no damage or game impact that can be meassured directly. This simply has to be made up.

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5. I, don't calculate anything the system does and the system has these values already the matchmaker is using them the only difference from now is that instead of using it driectly the matchmaker has to apply it to the Mech's BR.

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6. Same as in Point 6

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I've got an old alpha version in my Excel MechLab somewhere. But creating an overview shouldn't be too difficult.

Edited by Nighthound, 23 October 2013 - 03:02 AM.

[FinsT]

mike29tw, on 22 October 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

...
When there is some balance issues, I'm more inclined to fix the issue rather than mess with the matchmaker to make sure someone using OP weapon is not going to win the match.

Mike's right. Fix weapons, not people! %)

[Nighthound]

For heaven's sake is my English that bad?
BattleRating is not intended as a fix for all bugs but it COULD be a way to represent and acknowledge them.
At the moment no one is getting penalized for gaining unfair advantages or merited for using something that is not working correctly.
Of course bugs should be fixed, but depending on how big a problem it is to fix it, that could take time, altering a number in the meantime won't fix it, but balance it out externaly.

Edited by Nighthound, 23 October 2013 - 09:03 AM.