12 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

One main problem in the game is that all the upgrades serve to provide more offensive power, and not very much other than maximizing armor (done in most builds to the nearest whole ton) helps with direct ability to gain defensive power. This is exacerbated by the ability to target single hit boxes, so even large mechs often take little damage outside of the a few hit locations.

What many people have suggested is increasing internal HP on mechs. I think doing this in a blanket fashion is a bad idea, as it doesn't more directly address any of the reasons that mechs have large offensive capability.

What I propose is changing the upgrade (or standard) tech to incorporate more choices for defensive capability.

Give standard engines the benefit of +30% internal HP to the center torso hit location.
Give standard skeleton/frame a benefit of +10% internal HP to all hit locations.
Give each standard heat sinks a benefit of +5% internal HP to slotted location, have this stack with engine heat sinks.

For example, a completely stock mech (standard engine, skeleton, and heat sinks) that has 10 engine heat sinks would have a total of +90% internal HP(+30% for engine/+50% for SHS/+10% for stock skeleton) on the center torso, and +10% internal HP everywhere else.
This is near to the doubling of internal HP that many are calling for, but requires that you keep the stock configuration on your mech.

I suggest something a little different for FF armor.
Instead of refunding tonnage with the FF upgrade, allow FF armor to increase the total armor you can put on an individual location by 20%. increase the total armor the mech can carry by 10%. What you now have is a system where the user can pay for a defensive upgrade, and even skew the ratios of armor on individual positions, but they have to pay for it in tonnage that can't then be used for offensive capability. This would most heavily benefit mechs like the Hunchback, which have a hit location they wish to protect, and normally have a hard time protecting it.

Artemis is in a decent place, but I recommend that Artemis components receive a net gain in component HP of perhaps +5. This gives a better reason to want artemis upgrade on smaller launchers.

Thoughts?

This would give purpose to keeping the standard/stock set up for mechs. It would make trial mechs more able to take damage (good for a new player), and it would give more experienced players more choice in what upgrades to take.

Edited by Prezimonto, 19 December 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Zarlaren]

I like this idea about more internal hp on engines and compinents. But they should just buff internal structure hp by 5% on all mechs for now till a real fix is in place.

[Curccu]

Yeah then your stock mech could take "a lot" of damage but still can't deal any.. because SHUTDOWN..... shoot ... SHUTDOWN..and so on

[Prezimonto]

We played in closed beta with single heat sinks and managed to control the mechs fine. If upgrades were less rampant you wouldn't have an issue controlling your heat in a fight nearly as much and everyone targeting you likely wouldn't be doing so with 2x the firepower as well.

Additionally, I don't mind if DHS had much lower heat threshold bonus, so there was added incentive for single heat sinks.

Edited by Prezimonto, 11 November 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Sounds interesting - I can remember a talk we had with the start of Open Beta and the introduction of this new tech. A friend told me to be carefull because the offensive capabilitys of light mechs was almost doubled - over night.

its also true when i think about my Atlas build...in CB i ran a AS7-RS with 3 MLAS, TAG, 2LRM 10 and Gauss...without Gauss - i knew this was the maximum of weapon load - without overheating and standard fusion - whenever i saw a AS7 with the same load out as the current Atlas (C) - i did advice my team to shoot at the right side of that Atlas - killing that mech mostly with a single salvo = Gauss+XL
but you see the current RS has the same firepower - without the drawback of an XL....and its not the only Mech.... I'm able to add a LRM to my AS7 i was using in the CB. simple because of ES and DHS (and it doesn't run hotter)

You really need a "simulated" advantage of SuccessionWars Tech... current Tech is Star League Tech - even in 3058 even Elite Units like the Gray Death haven't modernized all of there Mechs.

I really hope there will be a wipe with the start of Closed Beta - when SL Tech is only available when you have enough loyality points.... at best its a system parallel to the "current" game.

[Prezimonto]

Karl Streiger, on 07 April 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

I really hope there will be a wipe with the start of Closed Beta - when SL Tech is only available when you have enough loyality points.... at best its a system parallel to the "current" game.

This would probably get me playing the game again.

If upgrades were actually expensive and you had to earn loyalty with a faction to afford to purchase the upgrade for each mech you wanted it on, they'd be a lot less common on all mechs. So instead of just grinding cbills, you had to actually maintain some level of faction rank and/or actual repair fees if you didn't.

What would be even more fun, is a back end that allowed you to tier and maintain different pilots... who each have a stable of mechs, and each need to be maintained independently.

So take a pilot who's Liao, he's got rank in Liao, the ability to earn mechs that you control the factories for at discounts, and upgrades for those mechs as you gain rank. He's not going to have easy access to other mechs, and so he might only be ranking up for one or two mechs and all variants. At very, very high levels you gain access to salvaged Clan mechs or bits of clan tech hybridized, but very limited and/or damaged so they generally perform a little worse.

Now start another pilot who's Steiner, he also gets the same perks but over with Steiner.

Now start a Clan Ghost Bear pilot, only has access to appropriate Clan tech.

Now start a mercenary, you have access to all factions mechs, tech, equipment, but at huge cbill increases.

Maintain each pilot as a sort of mini-account within your whole account... so you can't trade items between pilots without resigning rank. Each pilot would have achievements, unlocks, cbill accounts, mech upgrades, pilot trees to deal with.

I'd love this, absolutely love it. A skin of the setting over the top of our generic Big Stompy Robot Team Death Match game. You know... the actual reason I came to play MWO.

[Bobzilla]

I would argue that XL's in the torso is equivilant to making it 'weaker' than standards.

I think the SHS vs DHS would only further encorage the low heat ballistic builds.

I would like to see an atlas that could take double the damage it could now tho.

[BourbonFaucet]

A better way to do this is to simply lower the heat cap, increase dissipation, and then give SHS the ability to add more to the heat cap than doubles do. Then you really have think whether you want tonnage efficiency and more dissipation, or squeezing off two more alphas.

Endo Steel feels penalizing enough to me. I can think of all the 'Mechs I have where I'd like to sacrifice a ton of ammo for one more DHS, but I don't have the slots to do so.

Ferro Fibrous feels fine too. It's hard to use on anything but lighter 'Mechs due to the slot requirement.

Your Artemis buff is a rather good idea. That extra sensor array we know is there taking up another ton and crit slot ought to count for a few more hitpoints.

[Prezimonto]

Techorse, on 07 April 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

A better way to do this is to simply lower the heat cap, increase dissipation, and then give SHS the ability to add more to the heat cap than doubles do. Then you really have think whether you want tonnage efficiency and more dissipation, or squeezing off two more alphas.

Endo Steel feels penalizing enough to me. I can think of all the 'Mechs I have where I'd like to sacrifice a ton of ammo for one more DHS, but I don't have the slots to do so.

Ferro Fibrous feels fine too. It's hard to use on anything but lighter 'Mechs due to the slot requirement.

Your Artemis buff is a rather good idea. That extra sensor array we know is there taking up another ton and crit slot ought to count for a few more hitpoints.

I don't disagree that fiddling with heat sink values would help balance them as well.

The point with Endo and Ferro is that Endo is just better, always and neither is an honest defensive upgrade.

If Ferro was a real defensive upgrade, most mechs would have to choose.. defense(take more hits), or offense(pack more weapons/ammo/heat sinks on your mech).

Bobzilla, on 07 April 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

I would argue that XL's in the torso is equivilant to making it 'weaker' than standards.

I think the SHS vs DHS would only further encorage the low heat ballistic builds.

I would like to see an atlas that could take double the damage it could now tho.

The same goes with XL engines, outside of a handful of mechs like the Griffon, Shadowhawk, and Thunderbolt... they're either fairly obviously designed to carry XL engines (don't lose side torso's very easily because of hit boxes) like the Dragon, or they're fairly obviously designed to carry standard engines (lose side torso's VERY easily because of hit boxes) stalker.

The majority of mechs in the game can carry an XL without a large risk involved. I just want to make standard engines a little more attractive for the weight.... +30% to internal HP makes the mech around 20% more survivable in the center torso, when you factor armor and HP. That's actually a trade I'd consider harder on most mechs.

[Prezimonto]

This topic has come up again in several other threads, I thought I'd push it up to the top for some viewing again.

[Koniving]

With those percentages and the five minute Awesome, I could have the health of two Atlases in an 80 ton mech.

The percentages themselves are much higher than you might realize.

Then again the five minute Awesome boats a crapload of heatsinks to be able to run 3 PPCs for 5 minutes straight. All of which are singles.

Edited by Koniving, 13 September 2014 - 04:33 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Koniving, on 13 September 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

With those percentages and the five minute Awesome, I could have the health of two Atlases in an 80 ton mech.

The percentages themselves are much higher than you might realize.

Then again the five minute Awesome boats a crapload of heatsinks to be able to run 3 PPCs for 5 minutes straight. All of which are singles.

I'm okay with that, honestly. It's a real trade. Of course the percentages can come down if needed, or perhaps scale or cap at some point. There's lots of possible solutions.

But honestly, if you pack your mech FULL of extra tons of metal rather than just weapons, I'm completely okay with them giving you some serious extra HP. On the current battle field, with ghost heat, 3PPC's aren't even an amazingly wonderful loadout.

[Tarl Cabot]

Techorse, on 07 April 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

A better way to do this is to simply lower the heat cap, increase dissipation, and then give SHS the ability to add more to the heat cap than doubles do. Then you really have think whether you want tonnage efficiency and more dissipation, or squeezing off two more alphas.

Endo Steel feels penalizing enough to me. I can think of all the 'Mechs I have where I'd like to sacrifice a ton of ammo for one more DHS, but I don't have the slots to do so.

Ferro Fibrous feels fine too. It's hard to use on anything but lighter 'Mechs due to the slot requirement.

Your Artemis buff is a rather good idea. That extra sensor array we know is there taking up another ton and crit slot ought to count for a few more hitpoints.

The main thing missing is the lack of use of Battletech heat scale, the effects. There is more than one shutdown point, higher heat caused the mech to slow down and made targeting more difficult (high heat caused the myomer muscles to function at a slower rate) and more potential points for ammo explosion. Add that there are no engine crits in MWO, only health points. That means destroying the side torso with a Clan XL does nothing to the mech except remove, generally, approx half of the Clan mech's arsenal.