82 replies to this topic

[Drunk Canuck]

I hope I am not the only one who feels that at this point in time, and it has been for quite some time, that pulse lasers are in a really terrible spot. There is no reason to carry them in pug matches, their heat generation versus standard lasers and the damage output make them a waste of tonnage for heavier Mech's due to the inability to get into effective range with them before you are burned into the ground by anyone who has ranged weapons. And even in drops where you are running the same weight as another team (comp matches for instance), PPC's and Large Lasers rule the field because they have a range advantage on brawling weapons.

So the question begs to be asked, what do we do to make pulse lasers more viable? Well in terms of canon, ER's don't exist until 3057 when Clan Wolf started prototyping them, however they did not make it into production due to the split of Clan Wolf into Clan Wolf-in-Exile. So if PGI intends on staying close to canon, we wouldn't see ER Pulse Lasers until much further down the line. That said, I always felt that in the old MechWarrior games, ER Pulse Lasers were quite possibly the best beam weapon next to the ER PPC, they were more devastating compared to traditional lasers because you didn't have to retain your aim exactly to deal a lot of damage to a component.

I'd be curious to know what the community thinks should be done to get pulse lasers back into viability.

[FupDup]

You're not the only one, in fact there is a very large island inhabited with people who want pulse buffs. Unfortunately, the devs currently feel that pulse lasers are "normalized" and thus working as intended.

[Drunk Canuck]

FupDup, on 21 November 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

You're not the only one, in fact there is a very large island inhabited with people who want pulse buffs. Unfortunately, the devs currently feel that pulse lasers are "normalized" and thus working as intended.

Well, I would have to agree that pulse lasers are "fine" in terms of how they function and whatnot, but outside running 5 Small Pulse on my Jenner F, I really find them to be quite pointless unless you are running a light killer like the Shadowhawk 2D2, and even then having two regular medium lasers with the 4 Streak 2's get's you up to an XL 360 engine which is optimal for light hunting. I can understand why PGI thinks they are "fine" and while they are "fine", they are also not "fine". It's hard to find the middle ground on a weapon that literally is balanced, it's everything else around it that isn't balanced. Maybe Large Lasers and PPC's need to have their effective range reduced so they deal less damage sub 300 meters. PPC's already do no damage at 90 meters and ER's are so hot few people run them.

[Diego Angelus]

Only advantage pulse has is shorter beam duration but cons are just too much so normal lasers outshine them. maybe fix some cons and they pulse could be viable.

[OznerpaG]

if pulses weighed a little less they'd be a more viable option - 6t for LPLas, 1.5t for MPLas, .75t for SPLas

i don't find their beam duration to really be that much less than regular lasers so why do they weigh double? they might be slightly more useful for small fast mechs to make snap shots on the run, but when space is at a premium on them i'd personally rather the lighter regular lasers

if you want to play meta you want max firepower for weight, and pulse lasers don't fit in that equation. fun, yes. practical, no

Edited by JagdFlanker, 21 November 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Windsaw]

Pulse Lasers are not useless, but they are niche weapons.
And they all have their niches.

For example, I use a combo of MLs and SPLs on my very fast Commando. SPLs are great for high speed hit-and-run tactics.
I still occasionally use LPLs when I have an energy slot in my CT, like on a Centurion or a Locust.
I uses MPLs in my scout-hunter Kitano. Their shorter firing duration gives them an edge against smaller fast targets.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The "normalized" pulse weapons are not fine, and are not intended to be fine. Normalization is a precursor to eventual balance tweaks.

There are a few areas where I see pulse weapons being changed across the board. First is range, where you might see them get a slight range boost. This seems unlikely to me, but not impossible.

Second is burn time. This is the best candidate we have for where PGI might continue to tweak them. Shaving off even another tenth of a second on burn time could make a huge difference in overall performance for the weapon.

Third is damage. It is likely tied with burn time for being where PGI decides to change them. Since range is so huge in this game, the only real compensating factor worth making the trade for would be raw damage output. Burn time helps with that indirectly in two ways (better concentration and more damage per second), but nothing beats a simple increase in base damage values. I could easily see pulse weapons getting a bit of a damage buff, and as they've already proven with the current LPLs they are willing to add fractions of a point of damage (allowing for even finer damage tuning).

The final major balance area is heat (since PGI seems to want to keep base cycle times the same burn time is the only area where RoF would be tweaked, and heat changes would be needed to make any meaningful RoF buff workable). Given the range problems pulse weapons suffer from, and the manner of advantage they offer over standard lasers (burn time and boosted close-in damage), they are clearly brawling weapons (or for close-in defense on long range builds). Brawling tends to favor dps over burst, and heat over time is a big issue for such weapons. Knocking off a bit of heat from pulse weapons would help compensate for potential lost heat sinks (due to the higher weight of the weapons) and increased RoF (due to shorter burn times). PGI need not fear long-range low-heat sniper pulse builds simply because pulse weapons are all very short ranged.

TLDR - Normalization is a starting point for balance, not an ending one. Damage, Duration, and Heat are the most likely areas for future balance tweaks.

PS - I suspect most weapon balance changes await some future boost to hit detection (SRM damage especially). PGI has expressed aversion to increasing effectiveness of certain weapon systems prior to hit detection fixes, fearing that the combined changes might render said weapons overpowered.

[Sprouticus]

Drunk Canuck, on 21 November 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Well, I would have to agree that pulse lasers are "fine" in terms of how they function and whatnot, but outside running 5 Small Pulse on my Jenner F, I really find them to be quite pointless unless you are running a light killer like the Shadowhawk 2D2, and even then having two regular medium lasers with the 4 Streak 2's get's you up to an XL 360 engine which is optimal for light hunting. I can understand why PGI thinks they are "fine" and while they are "fine", they are also not "fine". It's hard to find the middle ground on a weapon that literally is balanced, it's everything else around it that isn't balanced. Maybe Large Lasers and PPC's need to have their effective range reduced so they deal less damage sub 300 meters. PPC's already do no damage at 90 meters and ER's are so hot few people run them.

I run the light killer @d2 with a 350, a ML and a LPL. The range is close between the two, and the LPL's shortened beam time is significant.

I would still like the heat on the LPL to come down half a point, but it is at least not horrible with the change a couple of months ago.

Edited by Sprouticus, 21 November 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[Diego Angelus]

Pulse can be good if you are going to engage in close fight and short time because otherwise standard lasers put out more damage because they run cooler and more range.

[CygnusX7]

JMO but sPL's and mPL's are fine... it would be nice if LPL's generated slightly less heat and weighed 6T.

[cheapcamper]

Large pulse laser needed a buff, blue wub wub all the way!

[Spheroid]

@ Levi, They could also shorten the cycle time to improve DPS. Half regular laser would be huge.

Edited by Spheroid, 21 November 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[Sprouticus]

Seaking of Wub-wub, I STILL prefer the origional sound of the pulse lasers early in close beta., They sounded like the lasers in Terminator and it was awesome.

[Vodrin Thales]

Windsaw, on 21 November 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Pulse Lasers are not useless, but they are niche weapons.
And they all have their niches.

For example, I use a combo of MLs and SPLs on my very fast Commando. SPLs are great for high speed hit-and-run tactics.
I still occasionally use LPLs when I have an energy slot in my CT, like on a Centurion or a Locust.
I uses MPLs in my scout-hunter Kitano. Their shorter firing duration gives them an edge against smaller fast targets.

It's a bad niche. There really are hardly any builds that work better with a MPL or LPL than they would with a LL or ML. For the most part the standards are simply better due to weight less, having less heat generation, and longer range. To make pulse lasers variable they need buffs in damgage, heat production, or range. Or some combination of those factors.

[Drunk Canuck]

JagdFlanker, on 21 November 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

if pulses weighed a little less they'd be a more viable option - 6t for LPLas, 1.5t for MPLas, .75t for SPLas

i don't find their beam duration to really be that much less than regular lasers so why do they weigh double? they might be slightly more useful for small fast mechs to make snap shots on the run, but when space is at a premium on them i'd personally rather the lighter regular lasers

if you want to play meta you want max firepower for weight, and pulse lasers don't fit in that equation. fun, yes. practical, no

Clan iterations of the Pulse Laser weigh less, so it wouldn't make sense to make them lighter. FedCom scientists did eventually create the X-Pulse series of lasers which had a longer reach to compete with the Clan versions, but those weren't until 3057. Pulse lasers I guess will become viable once Clan tech starts being introduced, but to what degree is unknown.

CygnusX7, on 21 November 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

JMO but sPL's and mPL's are fine... it would be nice if LPL's generated slightly less heat and weighed 6T.

You can't drop the weight of Large Pulse Lasers because it doesn't make sense when it comes to canonicity. Clan iterations of the Medium and Large weigh 1 ton less then their IS counterparts, while the Clan Small Pulse is the same weight as the IS iteration. Think about it this way though, if and when Clan Small and Medium Pulse lasers get introduced, light Mech's are going to become a lot more lethal then they are now. Less heat generation, MPL's weighing 1 ton means a JR7-F would be able to run 6 of them and still have space for some heat sinks and other light Mech's would benefit from the same kinds of advantages. Right now though, SPL and MPL are strictly good for light and medium Mech's, the LPL is useless for heavy and assault classes because sniping and long range is the meta game.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 21 November 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[Jman5]

Pulse lasers need something done to them in order to make them viable. Yes they work in very extreme niche situations where you have low heat, 2 tons 1 slot for mpl or 7 tons 2 slots for LPL. The requirements where it becomes useful are so specific it almost might as well not exist in the game. So you have:

Pros:
Same slot size as counterpart.
Slightly higher damage
Lower Beam Duration

Cons:
Higher Heat
Heavier
Lower Range

One of those cons need to change in order for the weapon to be semi-useful. Personally, I would up the range to baseline because lasers already have pitiful max ranges compared to autocannons. Pulse lasers have subpar range for a class of weapons that already have subpar range.

Edited by Jman5, 21 November 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[FupDup]

Jman5, on 21 November 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Pulse lasers need something done to them in order to make them viable. Yes they work in very extreme niche situations where you have low heat, 2 tons 1 slot for mpl or 7 tons 2 slots for LPL. The requirements where it becomes useful are so specific it almost might as well not exist in the game. So you have:

Pros:
Same slot size as counterpart.
Slightly higher damage
Lower Beam Duration

Cons:
Higher Heat
Heavier
Lower Range

One of those cons need to change in order for the weapon to be semi-useful.

I wouldn't count same slot size as a "pro," because doesn't "pro" mean something that is advantageous? If it's equal, that makes it a neutral point, not an advantage (so 2 pros, 3 cons).

[SniperCon]

Pulse lasers are brawling weapons and are devastating when used as such. The are too easily dismissed for having limited range; a mistake paid for by my opponents.

- They do more DPS by 25%. Their DPS isn't as weight efficient, but it's still more DPS in the same hardpoints.
- Their second and third shots come out quicker. Getting a second or third alpha from 2 LPL half a second quicker is very often the difference between a neutered Atlas and an AC20 to the face.
- For me, it is significantly easier to target specific components for 0.6 seconds than 1 second. I'd estimate I put about 8 damage from a LPL where I want vs 5 from a LL. I'm not a great shot, so take that for what it's worth.
- You are on target less and can torso twist more. When I'm desperately trying to hide my AC20 in my YenLo, a full second of regular lasers feels like forever. I might get off 2 or 3 more AC20 shots some matches by protecting my AC20 0.4 seconds sooner after each shot.

All of these points specifically benefit brawling. Pulse lasers are not as versatile as their counterparts. However, think about it next time you are cored out by pulse lasers half a second before you would have returned fire.

Edited by SniperCon, 21 November 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[Khobai]

Biggest issue with pulse lasers is that their -2 bonus isnt reflected in MWO. What that -2 means is that pulse lasers hit at medium range like lasers hit at short range.

So I think pulse lasers should get triple max range, unlike most other energy weapons which get double. EIther that or pulse lasers should get bonus damage at close range, because theyre supposed to be knifefighting weapons.

[Fuggles]

the biggest thing with pulses IMHO is the range. make them the same range as their regular counterparts and then they would be worth the increase tonnage and heat for a marginal increase in damage.

theres a big difference between medium lasers and medium pulses, you can take pot shots at stuff 350-450 meters out with medium lasers and its still worth the heat to fire them for the damage they do. medium pulses will do no damage at that range and are basically only usefull for up close brawling wich they are honestly too hot to use for.

large pulses are decent, but considering the range/tonnage, ppcs or ERlarges are almost always a better choice. they do make great brawling weapons in a mech that can only run 2 energy like an atlas ddc or Orion though.