26 replies to this topic

[D04S02B04]

To answer the OP.

The 2 best laser weapons are really the LL and ML. Everything else is quite useless.

ER LL is only applicable if you consistently engage at 600m+ and even at that range, you have to remain stationary to hit reliably. That translates to being eaten alive by good ppc poptart players, dual gauss, triple ac2 boats and tons of other things out there.

The additional heat needs to be managed unless you got huge amounts of DHS and you know specifically what you're doing. I find that almost every advocate of ER LLs in its use as a main weapon over situational/playstyle specific weapon play at lower ELOs.

The main reason why you'll pick LL over ML is only because of the current meta in pugs where everyone likes to sit back and camp and shoot like cowards from a long distance (and constantly missing). If you take ML you'll be the only brawler/lion among sheep.

The main considerations for why you'll take a LL over a ML are that a LL is almost 2 ML and marginally more heat efficient for an extended range for one less hard point. That is an equivalent of taking on 3 additional tons for more versatility. Depending on what mech you run and tonnage available having 2 LLs may be better.

[D04S02B04]

clownwarlord, on 25 November 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

If anything maybe a small scale back on Large lasers heat penalty because it does seem a little much, but then be ready for 4 to now 6 ER Large Laser Stalkers or Awesomes.

I think scaling back on the MLs heat penalty is more reasonable. At 5 damage 4 heat, it barely makes the cut for being the most damage - tonnage efficient weapon but you're better off loading more heat efficient weapons.

If tonnage permits, I will always take LL over ML. Reducing the heat requirement on MLs will actually encourage more brawling and close quarters fighting.

[Sandpit]

Well I'll take that with a grain of salt. I can understand the physics behind it but I'd have to see proof on it. If you fire a gun it gets hot. If you fire a gun in rapid fire it gets hotter. If you don't let it cool off before firing again the barrel itself is still hot.

So for simplistic example

1 shot 1 heat
2 shots 2 heat
if I don't let that barrel cool off then it drops 1 heat and 2 more shots takes it to 3 heat.

that's how the Btech heat system works essentially except it's not "barrel" temp it's just simplified heat in general

[Asmudius Heng]

Remember that the longer the base range of the weapon the more use it has beyond that range. Short range lasers drop off thier damage is very sharp, while the LL remains a decent hit at longer range and the ERLL even more.

The range is an important factor because not everyone can face hug

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Quote

No problem.

It's not so much that they pause. That's not heat retention.

Lasers build up heat over time (it's not 4 heat for a medium laser all at once, it's 4 heat over 1 second). That's the "pause." The pause (it's actually just the total heat climbing slowly as you cool) is for all non-instant heat weapons (lasers, flamers, single tube missile launchers).

Heat retention is where if you do not stop firing the weapon it will generate more heat each time it cycles. (Kind of like ghost heat, but before ghost heat and it goes by "said person hasn't stopped using this weapon.")

Say if a laser fires for 1 second, then cycles for 3 seconds (4 seconds total), on the next time if you did not let go of the trigger it will generate slightly more heat. It's hard to see on double heatsinks (the heat per medium laser stops increasing at 5 heat), but single heatsinks with 10 SHS it should be impossible to overheat with a single medium laser. (4 heat generated over 1 second, with 1 cooling as it's building up [3 heat at the end of the beam] and 3 seconds of cooling = 4 heat - 4 cooling = 0). But you can with just one ML as each time it fires (so long as you hold the mouse button or fire before half a second after the full 4 seconds) as eventually it reaches 5 heat per medium laser. You can overheat with 14 SHS on a skill-less mech, too, due to heat retention.

27 DHS it should be theoretically impossible to overheat with any single weapon, right? The heat retention for flamers has no limit. Eventually despite the incredibly high threshold and "1 heat per second", you'll see a flamer climb as high as 20% heat in a single second. That's with over 5 cooling per second resisting the heat climb.

What's made flamers remotely useful recently is that "heat retention" has been applied to its offensive ability too, which both raises the heat generated by their weapons, as well as cause their heat to rise. I was told it "takes time" to have effect, and so over time the flamers can overpower their heatsinks. Ironically around the same time when the heat skyrockets for yourself. The first public mention of Heat Retention is on the patch notes and weapon balancing information involving the flamer changes. It reads (paraphrased) "The heat produced on the target will increase exponentially due to heat retention."

Hmm... in light of this, I probably should reconsider a few builds I use on my TDK, 4P and a few others that use multiple MLs.

[Arctcwolf]

all it ultimately comes down to isproperly grouping weapons so they have ample time to cool.

group 4 mediums and 3 mediums separately and u can deal with the heat rise much easier than stacking them all(ignoring ghost heat).

in regards to overall weapon effectiveness, mediums are best overall. for snipers, sure ER larges are preferred, but i have yet to see a map where a sniper can perch at max range and the target has nowhere to hide...a smart player will wait for a sniper, or have a weapon of their own 2 strike with(er ppc, ac2, ac5, gauss, LRM's). prevalence of cover renders range advantage useless unless making an epic climb up a long hill in a mission I remember from MW2:Mercs, where there was no cover and ER boats prevailed.

when comparing based on damage, 2 mediums do slightly more than 1 large, with slightly more heat, while weighing 3 tons less, and with less effective and max range. the tonnage penalty is what hurts the large laser and ER. drop the weight 1 ton on each, and I see it as being used more.

Otherwise, heat is the next issue, which on -85C maps, or the upcomming moon base in zero atmosphere, wont be an issue, and then why not run 7 er larges on an awesome or battlemaster? just remember to chain them or group them properly.

The next impressive upgrade will be Clan ER mediums...same weight...longer range...slightly more damage...same heat...

clan ER larges will have same weight...longer range...slightly more damage...and I hope less heat...but dont know for sure.

[LowSubmarino]

Arctcwolf, on 26 November 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

in regards to overall weapon effectiveness, mediums are best overall. for snipers, sure ER larges are preferred, but i have yet to see a map where a sniper can perch at max range and the target has nowhere to hide...a smart player will wait for a sniper, or have a weapon of their own 2 strike with(er ppc, ac2, ac5, gauss, LRM's). prevalence of cover renders range advantage useless unless making an epic climb up a long hill in a mission I remember from MW2:Mercs, where there was no cover and ER boats prevailed.

when comparing based on damage, 2 mediums do slightly more than 1 large, with slightly more heat, while weighing 3 tons less, and with less effective and max range. the tonnage penalty is what hurts the large laser and ER. drop the weight 1 ton on each, and I see it as being used more.

Some maps are totally awesome for er lls. Tourmaline, canyon, alpine, forest, crimson have awesome sniper locations all over the maps. I have had crazy success with 4 er lls getting around 1300 dmg and 5 kills repeatedly on them.

Of course you can hide. But lasers are, well, lightning fast. How can you hide from that? And of course there are other long range weapons and if somebody is good with them they can return fire. But no long range weapon is as accurate or fast as the laser.

Combine that with the stalkers awesome hardpoints. It can peak over ridges and is barely visible or peak around corners.

That thing loaded with er lls is a beast. It is a tested and tried sniper loadout that I have played over 8 days total playtime.

They are completly different weapons. Yout cant compare mediums to er lls in the way you do. In the right situation I get owned by a brawler who in turn gets beaten when range is involved. There is no 'overall' effectivenss. There is always the context and situational advantages and disadvantages.

The er ll can do what the medium cant do and vice versa. How you do it decides who dies and who lives hehe. A good sniper chooses terrain wisely and cannot simply be approached by hopping from cover to cover without the attacker taking serious amounts of dmg.

Edited by oneda, 26 November 2013 - 06:35 AM.