119 replies to this topic

[Navy Sixes]

Remember when people were calling builds "cheese?" I never see that anymore.

Does anyone else? If not, is it because it's simply a term that has become passe? What term has assumed "cheese's" mantle? Or has the game and community reached a point where we are building the way we want and there are no more real "cheese builds" out there?

I for one hope it's the latter. I always though it was more a "spoilsport" term used to describe a build that beat you than a meaningful description. Although I remember some using it to describe a build that is only successful in an extremely situational capacity. Put in those terms, does this mean we're past that?

Thoughts and/or opinions? Tell me of your home-cheese, Usul.

[DaZur]

The "cheese" is all at the top-tier / uber competitive end of the Elo player-pool...

If you see it in the shallow end of the pool (where the vast majority of us unwashed play...) it's un-skill mimicry at best...

[AlmightyAeng]

Nah, ghost heat 'cooked' the cheese.

Now it is no longer cheese...it is refined delicious sauce.

[Homeless Bill]

Tycho von Gagern, on 25 November 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Remember when people were calling builds "cheese?" I never see that anymore.

It never left. Direct-fire, pinpoint alpha damage is still the name of the game, and the Stalker and Highlander are still the best at playing that game. Perhaps your Elo isn't high enough to see it, but believe me it's still around.

[Navy Sixes]

DaZur, on 25 November 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

The "cheese" is all at the top-tier / uber competitive end of the Elo player-pool...

If you see it in the shallow end of the pool (where the vast majority of us unwashed play...) it's un-skill mimicry at best...

Yeah, count me among the filthy proletariat as well. But how do you think the use of the phrase has changed over the months? Or has it? For example, I remember when a 6xLRM5 A-1 "spam-cat" would be decried as straight cheese, loudly and at length. These days, it seems to be widely accepted as a valid build, with most complaints against it dismissed as an "L2P" situation.

As I said, I don't really have an opinion on the matter, beyond finding it curious how our language (and the resulting way we communicate our balance concerns) in regard to the game is evolving. Whether it's just a matter of a phrase falling out of favor or a sign that the game and community are changing (for better or for worse) I think it's kind of neat and just wanted to see what others thought.

[Escef]

One of the things that just irks me is this trend in gaming culture to think of effectiveness as a bad thing.

[DaZur]

Tycho von Gagern, on 25 November 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Yeah, count me among the filthy proletariat as well. But how do you think the use of the phrase has changed over the months? Or has it? For example, I remember when a 6xLRM5 A-1 "spam-cat" would be decried as straight cheese, loudly and at length. These days, it seems to be widely accepted as a valid build, with most complaints against it dismissed as an "L2P" situation.

It's several things at once...
- A large portion of that segment of the community that reviled said "cheese" builds have either capitulated to the norm or have vacated the premise seeking greener pastures.
- PGIs fudgery has, albeit not very gracefully mitigated the ability to "cheese without recourse", thus the waning numbers of those who do cheese are largely reserved again for the top-tier participants.
- With every new twist and every attempt to invoke this elusive animal called "balance"... the meta-monster causes it to re-evolve into some new iteration, thus the definition of "cheese" is fluid and ever changing...

[Navy Sixes]

Homeless Bill, on 25 November 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

It never left. Direct-fire, pinpoint alpha damage is still the name of the game, and the Stalker and Highlander are still the best at playing that game. Perhaps your Elo isn't high enough to see it, but believe me it's still around.

Oh, that's disappointing. I know a few months ago when I started out, people used to QQ about "cheese builds" all the time in chat and in the forums (even at my pathetic ELO). Now, I never see that term used (in my somewhat less-so but still pathetic ELO). Are you telling me that the best and brightest mechwarriors are up there in ELO Valhalla somewhere still clogging the in-game chat with accusations of "cheese," while the rest of us lowly Philistines have, from what I've seen, moved on?

That's sad.

[Damocles69]

PGI seems to have confirmed that it is indeed not cheese but the proper way to play the game. conform or be destroyed

[SmithMPBT]

Battletech canon caused alot of the furor. Most builds you see in the novels and tech readouts are junk in MWO. Lovers of the lore shed a tear when they saw a 6 PPC Stalker.

[Kattspya]

Balance fixes are so glacial and weapons are so bland that nothing stands out anymore. On the bright side the swings are less severe, or at least less frequent.

[FupDup]

The definition of "cheese" is basically anything that is low risk, high reward. In other words, the output is a lot higher than the input. Such configurations commonly have a rather low skill floor (i.e. are very easy to learn how to use and do well with).

"Cheese" builds still exist, and are gradually becoming more and more common, but they currently do not make up as large of a proportion of the builds in the game as they had during previous metas (yet). They are also not as drastically "cheesy" as past iterations (not as powerful).

Edited by FupDup, 25 November 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

People hate "cheese" cause it isn't hard to use. Splatcats and Streakcats were cheese because of splash and no SRM spread meant that they'd eat anyone that they fired upon. PPC+ anything is cheese, especially tied to JJs, because there isn't any downside to running hot. Boating is cheese because bads complain about it when they die (or the afore mentioned lack of heat penalties). Complaining about cheese builds isn't always a bad thing if there is actually a mechanic behind it that is being exploited on purpose or by accident. But, whining just because you got whacked is weak.

[DaZur]

FupDup, on 25 November 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

The definition of "cheese" is basically anything that is low risk, high reward. In other words, the output is a lot higher than the input. Such configurations commonly have a rather low skill floor (i.e. are very easy to learn how to use and do well with).

"Cheese" builds still exist, and are gradually becoming more and more common, but they currently do not make up as large of a proportion of the builds in the game as they had during previous metas (yet). They are also not as drastically "cheesy" as past iterations.

Yeah... like I said... in the top-tier!

(okay... that was a troll... I don't do it often but it was just sitting there staring me in the face.)

[FupDup]

DaZur, on 25 November 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Yeah... like I said... in the top-tier!

(okay... that was a troll... I don't do it often but it was just sitting there staring me in the face.)

They certainly start in the top-tier, but eventually people catch on and start spreading it like h*rpes. This is especially true because Elo doesn't do a very good job of separating players by "skill," so when a "top tier" player decides to go pugging/4-manning they can come into contact with players of lesser experience than themselves, and those lower players will try to emulate their builds. I don't consider myself a top player by any means, and I almost exclusively pug, and I still see a considerable amount of sharp cheddar in my matches with a side order of mozzarella.

Edited by FupDup, 25 November 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[Rowanas]

Personally, I rank poptarts as cheese. Anything that sees you just doing the same, monotonous strategy in every game, for every possible situation, without skill or adding anything to the fluid nature of the game, is cheese.

Most builds are not cheese (however much you may hate being ******* lrm spammed to death), but generally the term cheese has simply been refined and now we use specific terms for the heinous crimes of cheesers.

[DaZur]

FupDup, on 25 November 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

They certainly start in the top-tier, but eventually people catch on and start spreading it like h*rpes. This is especially true because Elo doesn't do a very good job of separating players by "skill," so when a "top tier" player decides to go pugging/4-manning they can come into contact with players of lesser experience than themselves, and those lower players will try to emulate their builds. I don't consider myself a top player by any means, and I almost exclusively pug, and I still see a considerable amount of sharp cheddar in my matches.

In fairness...

While it does trickle down to the shallow end of the pool, while easy to run, cheese is hard to master. You see some cheese while PUGing but it's more akin to cheese-whiz than a fine port cheese.

Sadly, low-skill / low-Elo and cheese is definitely not a sure-fire recipe for success...

[Navy Sixes]

SmithMPBT, on 25 November 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Battletech canon caused alot of the furor. Most builds you see in the novels and tech readouts are junk in MWO. Lovers of the lore shed a tear when they saw a 6 PPC Stalker.

I know I did, along with any hope of a decent KDR! Although, as I recall, those 6 PPC Stalkers shed a few themselves whenever they got fast-capped and couldn't counter.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Cheese was some stupid term coined by SC players anyway.

We just call them boats or "cookie cutter" builds that are more effective then they should be b/c of PGI's failed implementations of weapons and game mechanics.

[FupDup]

DaZur, on 25 November 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

In fairness...

While it does trickle down to the shallow end of the pool, while easy to run, cheese is hard to master. You see some cheese while PUGing but it's more akin to cheese-whiz than a fine port cheese.

Sadly, low-skill / low-Elo and cheese is definitely not a sure-fire recipe for success...

I dunno, I've seen some surprisingly well-refined Parmesan and Monterrey Jack varieties at times. A few times in this past week I've even been invited to 4-man with a squad of "competitive" (as in, they play 12-mans) guys who run extra-sharp cheddar...meanwhile I was grinding though my derpy Blunderbolts.

Edited by FupDup, 26 November 2013 - 01:02 PM.