675 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 05 March 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

The more I see post-UI2.0, the more hopeful I am. I'm not saying it's all good choices - still not sure how the MM changes are going to work (or not) - but the rate they are doing things has been drastically improved at least.

Oh its definetly improving. I think someone high up got a firm kick in the (insert expletive here) and was told to get things in order, because they feel like they are starting to do alot of things right finally. I think this was the second balance patch in under a month wasnt it? o.O

sidenote - kill some big stompy robots for me, 9 days to go until good internet.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Cimarb, on 31 January 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

{...}

In terms of the design the overall concept is good though I'd add in for any of the ones that fire multiple shells the ability to have magazines change as one of the core elements as well. Plus a specific determined rate of fire that accounts for that Reload time so the DPS relatively balances out.

I'll work on giving an example of this later.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Okay Proof of concept only working off what you already have.

For a 10 Second Period working on obtaining a 20 Damage potential with magazines included in the process. And for the purposes I'm going to just toss in some random fluff. That is not part of B-tech fiction at all.

Quote

Ragnarok Mk.VI Class 20 Autocannon
Fire Mode: Semi-Automatic

250mm HEAP Round
Fed Magazine: 1 Projectile
Damage Per Projectile: 10
Recharge Time: 0
Reload Time: 5 Seconds

Damage Per Minute: 120
Damage Per 10 Seconds: 20

Quote

Cavalier Mk.II Class 20 Autocannon
Fire Mode:Mechanical Burst

85mm HEAP Round
Fed Magazine: 3 Projectiles
Damage Per Projectile: 3.75
Damage Per Magazine: 19.5
Recharge Time: 0.15 Seconds
Reload Time: 4.5 Seconds

Damage Per Minute: 136.35
Damage Per 10 Seconds: 22.725

Quote

Mongol Horde Multi-strike Mk.1 Class 20 Autocannon
Fire Mode: Automatic, Sustained Fire Weapon
65mm HEAP Round
Fed Magazine: 10 Projectiles
Damage Per Projectile: 1.25
Damage Per Magazine: 12.5
Recharge Time: 0.05 Seconds
Reload Time: 5 Seconds

Damage Per Minute: 136.375
Damage Per 10 Seconds: 22.7292

Now keep in mind this is just a proof of concept. The idea was to award the Multi shot autocannons with slightly more damage for requiring the skill to be able to hit multiple targets. The refresh rate relates to the general rate of fire. The heat I opted to not determine, but the multi shot weapons should also generate more heat overall as the combustion would be repeated quite a bit during that fire time.

While the multiple shot ACs do get a slight advantage in damage more of that damage should be distributed across the mech. And while there is improvement the amount is also to a degree that it isn't eclipsing all other weapons with the same class.

These numbers are also fairly easy to adjust to get it all closer to be exactly 20 or to show a greater distribution of a higher volume of damage.

As I said before proof of concept. It keeps the pin-point weapon available to those that would want to use it while having the less accurate due to their nature weapons keep their relevance through an increase in damage. Other Pros and Cons can be attributed to the weapons in their design for range, velocity, heat generation, damage drop off, effective range and many other things to make them more unique in behavior.

Edited by Mirkk Defwode, 06 March 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[ExplodedZombie]

Here's why lasers are fantastic: partial damage.

With ballistics, you either hit or you miss. "Full" damage or nothing. With lasers you can track a tricky enemy and at least do some damage if you miss your first shot. For this reason alone, they are fantastic weapons.

[Cimarb]

ExplodedZombie, on 06 March 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

Here's why lasers are fantastic: partial damage.

With ballistics, you either hit or you miss. "Full" damage or nothing. With lasers you can track a tricky enemy and at least do some damage if you miss your first shot. For this reason alone, they are fantastic weapons.

Fantastic for assists, but inferior for damage. The better your skill, the more you will lean towards ballistics/FLD. (not saying you are bad, as I like lasers too).

[Cimarb]

Mirkk Defwode, on 06 March 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

Okay Proof of concept only working off what you already have.

For a 10 Second Period working on obtaining a 20 Damage potential with magazines included in the process. And for the purposes I'm going to just toss in some random fluff. That is not part of B-tech fiction at all.

Spoiler

[color=#CCCCCC]
Quote[/color]
[color=#959595]

Ragnarok Mk.VI Class 20 Autocannon
Fire Mode: Semi-Automatic

250mm HEAP Round
Fed Magazine: 1 Projectile
Damage Per Projectile: 10
Recharge Time: 0
Reload Time: 5 Seconds

Damage Per Minute: 120
Damage Per 10 Seconds: 20[/color]


[color=#CCCCCC]
Quote[/color]
[color=#959595]

Cavalier Mk.II Class 20 Autocannon
Fire Mode:Mechanical Burst

85mm HEAP Round
Fed Magazine: 3 Projectiles
Damage Per Projectile: 3.75
Damage Per Magazine: 19.5
Recharge Time: 0.15 Seconds
Reload Time: 4.5 Seconds

Damage Per Minute: 136.35
Damage Per 10 Seconds: 22.725[/color]


[color=#CCCCCC]
Quote[/color]
[color=#959595]

Mongol Horde Multi-strike Mk.1 Class 20 Autocannon
Fire Mode: Automatic, Sustained Fire Weapon
65mm HEAP Round
Fed Magazine: 10 Projectiles
Damage Per Projectile: 1.25
Damage Per Magazine: 12.5
Recharge Time: 0.05 Seconds
Reload Time: 5 Seconds

Damage Per Minute: 136.375Damage Per 10 Seconds: 22.7292
[/color]

Now keep in mind this is just a proof of concept. The idea was to award the Multi shot autocannons with slightly more damage for requiring the skill to be able to hit multiple targets. The refresh rate relates to the general rate of fire. The heat I opted to not determine, but the multi shot weapons should also generate more heat overall as the combustion would be repeated quite a bit during that fire time.

While the multiple shot ACs do get a slight advantage in damage more of that damage should be distributed across the mech. And while there is improvement the amount is also to a degree that it isn't eclipsing all other weapons with the same class.

These numbers are also fairly easy to adjust to get it all closer to be exactly 20 or to show a greater distribution of a higher volume of damage.

As I said before proof of concept. It keeps the pin-point weapon available to those that would want to use it while having the less accurate due to their nature weapons keep their relevance through an increase in damage. Other Pros and Cons can be attributed to the weapons in their design for range, velocity, heat generation, damage drop off, effective range and many other things to make them more unique in behavior.

I love your layout - much better looking than mine - but using quotes like that makes it harder to quote you in turn. Just an FYI - I had to manually copy/paste them and hope that it comes out ok.

What does the "recharge time" mean? How does it combine with reload time?

EDIT: yeah, quoting quotes doesn't work so well..

Edited by Cimarb, 06 March 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

ExplodedZombie, on 06 March 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

Here's why lasers are fantastic: partial damage.

With ballistics, you either hit or you miss. "Full" damage or nothing. With lasers you can track a tricky enemy and at least do some damage if you miss your first shot. For this reason alone, they are fantastic weapons.

Yes this does make lasers excellent, but lasers and something else is better - Though some dedicated laser platforms are simply amazing...Looking forward to that clan Nova.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Cimarb, on 06 March 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

I love your layout - much better looking than mine - but using quotes like that makes it harder to quote you in turn. Just an FYI - I had to manually copy/paste them and hope that it comes out ok.

What does the "recharge time" mean? How does it combine with reload time?

EDIT: yeah, quoting quotes doesn't work so well..

Recharge time is the time period between shots. So it'd correlate to Rate of Fire. but I didn't want to do a full rate of fire break down as I did those numbers off the top of my head and with the windows calculator for when my original estimate was way off.

What's fun is you can play around with different stats to get the same relative numbers. Like this is a much harder hitting but vastly slower reload weapon. Even within these boundries weight could be changed to reflect the potential of some of these weapons as another factor. Like a weapon that'd fire a 305mm round would require reinforced barrel and chamber - this could add an extra half ton onto the weight of the weapon.

Kiyoshi Mk.III Class 20 Autocannon
Fire Mode: Semi-Automatic

305mm HEAP Round
Fed Magazine: 1 Projectile
Damage Per Projectile: 16
Recharge Time: 0
Reload Time: 8 Seconds

Damage Per Minute: 120
Damage Per 10 Seconds: 20

[Cimarb]

Mirkk Defwode, on 06 March 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

Recharge time is the time period between shots. So it'd correlate to Rate of Fire. but I didn't want to do a full rate of fire break down as I did those numbers off the top of my head and with the windows calculator for when my original estimate was way off.

What's fun is you can play around with different stats to get the same relative numbers. Like this is a much harder hitting but vastly slower reload weapon. Even within these boundries weight could be changed to reflect the potential of some of these weapons as another factor. Like a weapon that'd fire a 305mm round would require reinforced barrel and chamber - this could add an extra half ton onto the weight of the weapon.

Kiyoshi Mk.III Class 20 Autocannon
Fire Mode: Semi-Automatic

305mm HEAP Round
Fed Magazine: 1 Projectile
Damage Per Projectile: 16
Recharge Time: 0
Reload Time: 8 Seconds

Damage Per Minute: 120
Damage Per 10 Seconds: 20

Ok, so recharge is cooldown, while reload time is?

Yeah, once you have this system in place, you can make effectively unlimited variations of all weapons. As long as you balance around something (I prefer DPS), the options are pretty limitless.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Cimarb, on 06 March 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Ok, so recharge is cooldown, while reload time is?

Yeah, once you have this system in place, you can make effectively unlimited variations of all weapons. As long as you balance around something (I prefer DPS), the options are pretty limitless.

Reload time is the cycle time between magazines. You'll see some of them have a specific magazine size

_{Mongol Horde Multi-strike Mk.1 Class 20 Autocannon
Fire Mode: Automatic, Sustained Fire Weapon
65mm HEAP Round}
Fed Magazine: 10 Projectiles
_{Damage Per Projectile: 1.25
Damage Per Magazine: 12.5
Recharge Time: 0.05 Seconds
Reload Time: 5 Seconds}

Damage Per Minute: 136.375
Damage Per 10 Seconds: 22.7292

When you've expended the rounds in the magazine it'll load a new magazine, or refered to sometimes in Btech as a cassette, this behavior allows an opportunity for a pilot to disengage while the reload occurs allowing for dynamic fights both utilizing the speed at which the weapon fires and it's damage potential while having mechanical downtime added in that would simulate "turns"

Edited by Mirkk Defwode, 06 March 2014 - 06:46 PM.

[wanderer]

Mirkk Defwode, on 06 March 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Yes this does make lasers excellent, but lasers and something else is better - Though some dedicated laser platforms are simply amazing...Looking forward to that clan Nova.

You mean the one with extra-hot medium lasers and an incredible propensity to ghost heat itself into utter meltdown that's going to have it's weapons nerfed so it's "balanced" against an IS weapon?
The MK 1 already exists, the Hunchback-P says hello.

[Noesis]

ExplodedZombie, on 06 March 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

Here's why lasers are fantastic: partial damage.

With ballistics, you either hit or you miss. "Full" damage or nothing. With lasers you can track a tricky enemy and at least do some damage if you miss your first shot. For this reason alone, they are fantastic weapons.

Though the purpose of using IG stats with the study in this thread gives a reflection of the overall damage potential or applied damage with weapon use and includes aiming and other game play factors as a result both as a determinable way of measuring the stats as it is calculated including the aiming percentages as well as incorporating all other factors like game balancing due to using values taken from a sizeable amount of actual game play.

Thus ballistics already show better characteristics here with applied use as opposed to lasers even if you consider the idea of being able to partially miss or track as being "fantastic" for some reason.

[Varent]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Couple ideas ive been playing around with. Just wanted to mess with CD and heat so far as well as HP mostly since I felt that would make certain ac on certain chasis more or less favorable depending. Those being the perks and detractors. This could be a possible model on how to change the ac into variations that would allow both sides to have a nice little taste. Keep in mind these numbers are in relation to the idea that there would also be variations on lasers and other weapons, so while lowering CD on some weapons may make people go "OMG NO!" keep in mind that CD and pulse rate on lasers of certain manufacturers would be tweaked as well, also realize the things with CD lowered are not lowered by much or are given very large burst times etc.

Now also note though this is so far somewhat incomplete and needs work that this is an exact list from sarna as far as manufacturers and where they are manufacturered. Some model types are more or less common and are represented as such. To get a very good weapon in a CW setting (if they one you have is destroyed) you would need to go all the way to that planet to pick one up, meaning travel time etc. Unless your willing to take one from the nearest vendor, wich could be sub par to the specific play style you want to use. Adapting will be needed an add a good overall feel.

There could be options I suppose also of making a few generic brands of AC that you could replace more easily but perhaps have them have major downsides such as +3 heat... or +2 additional cooldown...etc... to represent you are getting a sub par weapon until you make the trip to replace the specific gun you lost in a fight. Also makes people more cautious while engaging and wanting to protect there guns perhaps.

Of a last note this is a total rough draft idea that im mostly tossing out to get feed back back on and would like suggestions on other numbers to tweak (regardless of weight and size, since that would ruin alot of stock builds). Ammo capacity could perhaps be interesting as well, clip size ya know.

thoughts?

AC-20

ChemJet Gun 185mm - 1 round +2.5 second cooldown.
Manufactured by Aldis Industries on Terra and Betelegeuse
Manufactured by New Samarkand Metals on New Samarkand

Armstrong Requiem - 4 round burst .25 second burst -1 heat
Manufactured by United Outworlders Corporation on Ramora

Crusher SH cannon - 10 round burst .5 second burst. -1 second CD.
Manufactured by Quickscell Company on Kalidasa
Manufactured by Ceres Metals Industries on Indicass

Defiance Mech Hunter - 4 round burst over 1.2 seconds. .3 seconds in between each shell. -1.5 CD.
Manufactured by Defiance Industries on Hesperus II

Imerator Zeta-A - 10 round burst .4 second burst -.5 cd -2 heat.
Manufactured by Imperator Automatic Weaponary on Atreus

Kali Yama Big Bore - 1 round +2.5 second CD Double HP
Manufactured by Kali Yama Weapon Industries Incorporated on Kalidasa

Luxor Devastator-20 - 4 rounds, .5 second delay between rounds. -2 second cooldown. (ac2 fire rate)
Manufactured by Johnston Industries on New Sytris

Mydron A - 4 round burst .25 second burst -.5 CD
Manufactured by Bithinian Ballistics on Bithinia
Manufactured by yeffters weapons factory on gulkana

Pontiac 100 - 2 Round Burst .35 second burst -1 heat
Manufactured by Sterope Defense Industries on Sterope

Scarborough - 5 round .25 second burst -1 heat Double HP
Manufactured by Scarborough Manufacturers on Al na'ir
Manufactured by Scarborough Limited on Scarborough

Kinda wanna post this here too, just for the sake of getting some feed back so I can tweak some numbers. Gonna make a list of lasers and a full list of ac in the next day.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Kinda wanna post this here too, just for the sake of getting some feed back so I can tweak some numbers. Gonna make a list of lasers and a full list of ac in the next day.

I like the idea, but we should put our efforts together and tune these numbers with complete values to show a thought out system. Mine was just a proof of concept for showing weapons firing in a balanced functional fashion with incentives toward multi-shot for damage but it'd be more spread out because of that.

As a small critique though, your formatting for the weapon stats is a little tough to read at a glance.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Kinda wanna post this here too, just for the sake of getting some feed back so I can tweak some numbers. Gonna make a list of lasers and a full list of ac in the next day.

Like I said in the other thread, try adding in all the stats like it would show on Smurfy, such as heat, cooldown, damage per shell, etc. I really think if we can get all of this worked out and present a (mostly) unified front, we can make an official "do this" thread for people to vote on and then put it in front of Russ via Twitter to see if we can get some official traction.

Mirkk Defwode, on 07 March 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

I like the idea, but we should put our efforts together and tune these numbers with complete values to show a thought out system. Mine was just a proof of concept for showing weapons firing in a balanced functional fashion with incentives toward multi-shot for damage but it'd be more spread out because of that.

As a small critique though, your formatting for the weapon stats is a little tough to read at a glance.

You beat me to it, lol.

Oh, and while I liked the format of yours better, at least you can quote Varent's without a bunch of extra work

[Varent]

Mirkk Defwode, on 07 March 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

I like the idea, but we should put our efforts together and tune these numbers with complete values to show a thought out system. Mine was just a proof of concept for showing weapons firing in a balanced functional fashion with incentives toward multi-shot for damage but it'd be more spread out because of that.

As a small critique though, your formatting for the weapon stats is a little tough to read at a glance.

sorry I was playing with numbers and got excited, this is a very rough draft that im tossing out, go look at the burst fire thread for more thorough details and a few more polished numbers, that said once ive compiled the full list and any comments im gonna take it back to the drawing board, try to really work out any kinks and play with numbers more thoroughly and then try to give a really nice copy. Hopefully with other weapons in mind as well by then.

It also may be a little rough to read because there is alot of info not needed just yet in regards to the manufacturers, but I wanted to put that out there with the idea that the manufacturers locations across the galaxy will play a roll in all this.

Cimarb, on 07 March 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Oh, and while I liked the format of yours better, at least you can quote Varent's without a bunch of extra work

I have way to much free time on my hands... is it sad im finding this enjoyable combing through the numbers?

[stjobe]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

is it sad im finding this enjoyable combing through the numbers?

Not at all.

Theorycrafting is enjoyable - trying to come up with something that works, within certain set rules and restrictions, is a good mental workout.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Cimarb, on 07 March 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

[...]
Oh, and while I liked the format of yours better, at least you can quote Varent's without a bunch of extra work

I'll post my next set of numbers in an easier to reference system, I use the quotes cause its fast and easy for them to pop out. Next time I might just produce the numbers in excel and copy the table in.

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

[..]
It also may be a little rough to read because there is alot of info not needed just yet in regards to the manufacturers, but I wanted to put that out there with the idea that the manufacturers locations across the galaxy will play a roll in all this.

I have way to much free time on my hands... is it sad im finding this enjoyable combing through the numbers?

Nope going through numbers can be quite enjoyable. Just wish I had time to work on a complete system rather than a proof of concept. A little swamped at work lately.

I'd say just flesh it all out, Hell take my format and fill in the values adding Heat Per Shot and Heat Per Magazine as values with tonnage weight. Just make sure to call out the Pros and Cons from each. For my DPS calculations I punched the damage out to the minute to make it so I wasn't limited to a 10 second scale, then brought back the numbers to demonstrate both the DPM and DP10S to ensure transparency. I should've included the math I used to do that too

[Varent]

Mirkk Defwode, on 07 March 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

I'd say just flesh it all out, Hell take my format and fill in the values adding Heat Per Shot and Heat Per Magazine as values with tonnage weight. Just make sure to call out the Pros and Cons from each. For my DPS calculations I punched the damage out to the minute to make it so I wasn't limited to a 10 second scale, then brought back the numbers to demonstrate both the DPM and DP10S to ensure transparency. I should've included the math I used to do that too

Im avoiding calculating by DPS since I think its a bad way to compare items. Mostly just focusing on situational value as upposed to the dps. The DPS numbers Im sure will be wierd and funky and probly not balanced. But if you look at how the weapons are normally used and my notes, you will see im working towards making the weapons more set into a roll then anything else as well as allowing players more flexibility to make interesting build options.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Im avoiding calculating by DPS since I think its a bad way to compare items. Mostly just focusing on situational value as upposed to the dps. The DPS numbers Im sure will be wierd and funky and probly not balanced. But if you look at how the weapons are normally used and my notes, you will see im working towards making the weapons more set into a roll then anything else as well as allowing players more flexibility to make interesting build options.

Still good to calculate the DPS and make sure even situationally they're niched into a certain bracketed space. If they're far outside of that what you'll find is general player distaste as a lot of folks. Even in specific roles or functions the damage values should be completely looked over as it'll be what people look to for balance.