33 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

With PGI's pattern, we're receiving a new Hero mech with each "old" chassis, as it is cosmetically overhauled to reflect the weapons systems it carries. I know it's been suggested before, but the Hunchback IIC makes for a great basis for a hero mech. I now actually propose logical reasoning for it and actual stats PGI could use to make this happen.

In lore there are only two "special" Hunchbacks to make note of, and they're both slightly modified versions of the HBK-4H. However, the IIC gives us something unique to work with. Also, IIC mechs were merely IS mechs that the clans modified for their own purposes. Since they don't really have many (if at all) variants of their own, their premise can easily be hijacked with the purposes of giving us a Hero Mech.

Of course, we can't just make it a completely maxed out stock build. The stock build should seem something reasonable for the time, given the technology available. However, we know a Hunchback IIC carries a ballistic in each shoulder, with modest backup weapon systems. The IS is just now producing mech variants with newer technology, so this isn't impossible to do.

Proposed stats for the base unit would follow, as such:

Our "Hero" took his used and battered HBK-4SP and decided it was time to retire the weathered old girl. However, when he took the mech in to trade it off, the techs gave him an alternative . . . some new tech developed from this item, called the Helm Memory Core. After dumping the savings he was going to invest into a replacement mech, the techs went to work.

The techs ripped out the missiles, most of the external heat sinks, and several lasers so they could replace them with a pair of shiny new "Ultra" Autocannons. The ammo bays were easily converted to house Autocannon rounds instead of SRMs. Since the chassis wouldn't support all of this, normally, they decided to swap out the standard armor for a lot less Ferro-Fibrous armor, which gave them some weight to use without making the armor paper. To make up for the lost armor, the techs managed to cram in some jump jets.

Our "Hero" was a little disappointed at the loss in armor and number of weapons . . . in the beginning. However, after jumping over a hill and having those Autocannons whirr to life for the first time . . . shredding a pair of enemy Blackjacks . . . he couldn't have been happier for the change. Given the unique physique of the weapons, and the barrage of armor shredding rounds his overhauled chassis sent down range, he felt his old girl needed a new name . . . Gatling.

Gatling (HBK-GAT)
Tonnage: 50

Engine: 200 Standard
-Top Speed: 64.8 kph
-Max Engine Rating: 275

Torso Movement:
-125 Degrees to each side
-25 Degrees up and down

Arm Movement:
-40 Degrees to each side
-35 Degrees up and down

Internal Structure: Standard
Armor: 250 (Ferro Fibrous)
-H 18, CT 50, CTR 10, LT/RT 32, LTR/RTR 8, LA/RA 15, LL/RL 31
-338 Maximum Armor

Weapons and Equipment:
-Left Arm: Medium Laser
-Left Torso: UAC-5
-Head: Small Laser
-Right Torso: UAC-5
-Right Arm: Medium Laser

Hardpoints:
-Left Arm: 1 Energy
-Left Torso: 1 Ballistic, 1 AMS
-Head: 1 Energy
-Right Torso: 1 Ballistic
-Right Arm: 1 Energy

Heat Sinks: 10 Standard
Ammunition: 3 tons UAC-5 (1 in each torso)
Jump Jets: 2 (2 maximum)
ECM Capable?: NO
Module Slots: 2
Movement Archetype: Medium

[Diego Angelus]

So you are saying that you should get it only with MC while other people are stuck with normal variants F that. Let me buy Hunchie with different look(like founder mechs) and unique camo that is equal to normal variants and I'm first in line to buy it.

How can you disregard all other players and let only people with deep pockets have it. Just look misery...pathetic move.

[Rakshasa]

Quote

So you are saying that you should get it only with MC while other people are stuck with normal variants F that. Let me buy Hunchie with different look(like founder mechs) and unique camo that is equal to normal variants and I'm first in line to buy it.

How can you disregard all other players and let only people with deep pockets have it. Just look misery...pathetic move.

All Hero 'Mechs can only be bought with MC. This is a staple aspect of MWO's MC economy. >.>

As for the Gatling, I'm liking what I'm seeing. If PGI made it official I'd definitely consider buying one (assuming the paint job isn't eye-meltingly horrible, o' course ) - been looking for an excuse to get a Hunchie for ages, and a jump-capable, ballistic-spewing knockoff IIC Hero variant sounds like a pretty good one to me.

Edited by Rakshasa, 27 December 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Diego Angelus]

Rakshasa, on 27 December 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

All Hero 'Mechs can only be bought with MC. This is a staple aspect of MWO's MC economy. >.>

So that suddenly makes it OK sigh

[Drakari]

After some consideration, I've decided I like it. It is distinct enough from the other hunchbacks in both hardpoints and (probably) appearance to justify being a hero, but doesn't really seem overpowered. I mean, there are a few builds no other hunchback can do (dual 10s, 20s or Gauss) and doesn't have the weakness of all its weapons being blown off in a single component, but it overall has fewer hardpoints than a 4G (in fact, its stock build could easily be put into a 4G) and still can't use an XL engine as safely as a Blackjack can for heavy dual ballistics.

But I think the Jump Jets are going too far. I'm fairly certain most HBK-4G builds would trade a ballistics slot for jump jets in a heartbeat, with putting the second hardpoint on the other side torso only making things better. To be perfectly honest, while your concept is good, I think it would be more balanced to do only one or the other, and between those options I think the one that would best suit the hero concept of "Doing something no other variant can, but which other chassis can do better", something I consider an entirely reasonable option, would be the jump jets. I would say that single hunch with a single ballistics hardpoint and nothing else would be a fair trade to put in jump jets.

Alternatively, they could so something REALLY weird and have 1-2 ballistics hardpoints in each arm. That would be extremely different from any other hunchback, and if the only other weapon was the single Energy in the head then it wouldn't be overpowered. They could even put on jump jets and I think it would be fine; different and unique, but not really better.

[and zero]

I would totally buy it.

...if I didnt already decide to NOT pay pgi any more for their profound incompetence.

Awesome idea though OP i love the hbks

[Diego Angelus]

Drakari, on 27 December 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

After some consideration, I've decided I like it. It is distinct enough from the other hunchbacks in both hardpoints and (probably) appearance to justify being a hero, but doesn't really seem overpowered. I mean, there are a few builds no other hunchback can do (dual 10s, 20s or Gauss) and doesn't have the weakness of all its weapons being blown off in a single component, but it overall has fewer hardpoints than a 4G (in fact, its stock build could easily be put into a 4G) and still can't use an XL engine as safely as a Blackjack can for heavy dual ballistics.

But I think the Jump Jets are going too far. I'm fairly certain most HBK-4G builds would trade a ballistics slot for jump jets in a heartbeat, with putting the second hardpoint on the other side torso only making things better. To be perfectly honest, while your concept is good, I think it would be more balanced to do only one or the other, and between those options I think the one that would best suit the hero concept of "Doing something no other variant can, but which other chassis can do better", something I consider an entirely reasonable option, would be the jump jets. I would say that single hunch with a single ballistics hardpoint and nothing else would be a fair trade to put in jump jets.

Alternatively, they could so something REALLY weird and have 1-2 ballistics hardpoints in each arm. That would be extremely different from any other hunchback, and if the only other weapon was the single Energy in the head then it wouldn't be overpowered. They could even put on jump jets and I think it would be fine; different and unique, but not really better.

It would kill all other variants because mech lab allows you to make it anything.

Ballistics in arm are you serious ? you want to make it not hunchback XD

[psihius]

Give me 2!

[Sereglach]

Diego Angelus, on 27 December 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

So you are saying that you should get it only with MC while other people are stuck with normal variants F that. Let me buy Hunchie with different look(like founder mechs) and unique camo that is equal to normal variants and I'm first in line to buy it.

How can you disregard all other players and let only people with deep pockets have it. Just look misery...pathetic move.

Hero Mechs also grant a 30% c-bill boost. They have a unique pattern and unique hardpoints. It is part of the economy and the whole "freemium" service. If you have cash to spend and support the game with, you can get extra goodies and premium service that are NOT game breaking. I've watched other Stalker SRM boats melt Miseries like they're nothing. The Misery only has the unique, but not overpowering feature, of a ballistic hardpoint. This chassis would be the same way. It's unique, but not overpowering.

Drakari, on 27 December 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

After some consideration, I've decided I like it.

. . .

But I think the Jump Jets are going too far. I'm fairly certain most HBK-4G builds would trade a ballistics slot for jump jets in a heartbeat, with putting the second hardpoint on the other side torso only making things better. To be perfectly honest, while your concept is good, I think it would be more balanced to do only one or the other, and between those options I think the one that would best suit the hero concept of "Doing something no other variant can, but which other chassis can do better", something I consider an entirely reasonable option, would be the jump jets. I would say that single hunch with a single ballistics hardpoint and nothing else would be a fair trade to put in jump jets.

Alternatively, they could so something REALLY weird and have 1-2 ballistics hardpoints in each arm. That would be extremely different from any other hunchback, and if the only other weapon was the single Energy in the head then it wouldn't be overpowered. They could even put on jump jets and I think it would be fine; different and unique, but not really better.

Firstly, I'm glad you like the premise. It's nice to see some of the positive responses out there. Although the Hunchback IIC had jump jets, I could certainly see where that COULD be pushing it too far. If PGI were to agree that is also the case, I wouldn't complain if they just removed the JJ from the premise. That's why I ask about the premise of the concept in the poll, and not the exact 100% specified mech. Hell, if they removed the jump jets, they could just give it a fourth ton of UAC ammo . . . and the rest stays the same. Sounds fine by me.

However, on your last comment I agree more with Diego. A hunchback's big feature is that it carries big ballistics (or other mass weapon configs) in its hunch(es). Putting ballistic weapons in the arms no longer makes it a Hunchback . . . it makes it a 10 ton heavier Blackjack with arms that actually have the ability to traverse and track targets. For any hero Hunchback, they need to keep the big hardpoints where they belong . . . in the hunch(es).

[Deathlike]

I'm not sure if the cosmetic overhaul will help the Hunchback, having seen the results of the Catapult.

With that said, nothing good will come from giving a hero mech ECM or JJs (although more of the former than the latter due to balance reasons) that other variants of the same chassis did not get. The complaints would be range from "it is P2W" to "the hero variant gets stuff the normal variants did not".

So, don't even dare think about it.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 December 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[Sereglach]

Deathlike, on 27 December 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

I'm not sure if the cosmetic overhaul will help the Hunchback, having seen the results of the Catapult.

With that said, nothing good will come from giving a hero mech ECM or JJs (although more of the former than the latter due to balance reasons) that other variants of the same chassis did not get. The complaints would be range from "it is P2W" to "the hero variant gets stuff the normal variants did not".

So, don't even dare think about it.

Again, that is why I ask about the PREMISE in the poll. The exact stats are certainly up for debate and I'm sure PGI would balance them out. If it has no JJ, then it has no JJ. I'm not going to complain if they removed them.

However, we'll probably never see a Hunchback IIC, because it was a second line clan mech that didn't really have any variants. This design was basically supposed to be a poor man's Hunchback IIC, which did have JJ.

[Diego Angelus]

Sereglach, on 27 December 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

Hero Mechs also grant a 30% c-bill boost. They have a unique pattern and unique hardpoints. It is part of the economy and the whole "freemium" service. If you have cash to spend and support the game with, you can get extra goodies and premium service that are NOT game breaking. I've watched other Stalker SRM boats melt Miseries like they're nothing. The Misery only has the unique, but not overpowering feature, of a ballistic hardpoint. This chassis would be the same way. It's unique, but not overpowering.

Yeah but thats why they should be spacial giving that boost and look not unique hardpoints its taking away content from players that don't own them and there are lots of hero mechs and at this pace game is going to get trouble hero mechs that roll over other variants just like misery shows how much of a difference one hard point means.

Why do you people say give us hero mech why not ask for normal variant that everyone can use and play on same level.Also IIc is clan mech so we are going to see it with clan so be patient. I want 4sp or 4H as hero mech that is exactly like standard variants just unique look and 30% bonus. I will never buy hero mech until it get done like that otherwise I will just support broken system that in long run just hurts game.

[Sereglach]

Diego Angelus, on 27 December 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

[/size]

Yeah but thats why they should be spacial giving that boost and look not unique hardpoints its taking away content from players that don't own them and there are lots of hero mechs and at this pace game is going to get trouble hero mechs that roll over other variants just like misery shows how much of a difference one hard point means.

Why do you people say give us hero mech why not ask for normal variant that everyone can use and play on same level.Also IIc is clan mech so we are going to see it with clan so be patient. I want 4sp or 4H as hero mech that is exactly like standard variants just unique look and 30% bonus. I will never buy hero mech until it get done like that otherwise I will just support broken system that in long run just hurts game.

First off, please . . . PLEASE . . . when you're trying to state something or make a debate point, please ensure what you're typing makes sense. Also, please ensure it isn't a never-ending, run-on sentence. Thank you.

Now, to respond to what I believe you're trying to say. First off, the Misery isn't an overpowered or broken mech. It's unique, which is exactly what it's supposed to be. People stomp Misery mechs all the time in other chassis that are purchasable with c-bills, including other Stalkers. In reality, a Misery pilot could put 90% of the same builds into an Atlas RS, be more survivable, have better target tracking, and have arm articulation. However, people want the Misery because they like the look and/or they just love Stalkers and/or they just want to support PGI.

Hero mechs, and features that MUST be purchased with real money (Premium Time, Heroes, Champions, Vanity items, etc.), are what keep the game going. Unlike other games, where you're making a down payment to play the game, all you need to do to play MWO is download it. People using disposable income to purchase these items are what keep the game going. No matter how much the makers love the franchise, they're not making MWO out of the kindness in their heart. They're running a business; and they have families (and themselves) to feed and homes/rent to pay for. Deal with it.

Now, as stated in the OP, if you bothered to read it, you'd notice why I mentioned having a knockoff of the Hunchback IIC as a hero mech. Most IIC mechs had few, if any, variants. The Hunchback IIC does have several variants, but they all use 3060 and later tech, such as Heavy Lasers, Rotary AC's, and ATM launchers. Technology that we may or may not see in the game . . . and if we do see it, it's many years off.

The OP gives us a concept and capabilities for a viable IS Hero Hunchback that is enjoyable, unique, and not broken. In essence, it'd also be a poor man's Hunchback IIC until such time (if ever) we acquire the real thing.

[luxebo]

While this idea isn't bad, it would pretty much invalidate the 4G. What I suggested earlier is something similar to the old HBK-5HG from MW4 Mercs, which makes it similar to having JJs, more speed, one bigger hunch for 1 ballistic, one smaller hunch for 2 missile slots, and no zombie laser, only single hand lasers. Here:
Hunchback hero concept:
This hero is a Steiner one, similar to the one in Mechwarrior 4 Mercs, or HBK-5HG. This kind holds a single ballistic hardpoint in the main hunch, but there is also a smaller hunch in the left torso capable of two missile hardpoints. There is not a zombie medium laser in it’s head however, and only two energy hardpoints in each arm. Both hunches are somewhat large, but not as large as one of the single large hunches in other variants. JJs and max engine of 300 is in this variant.
Stock: 2xmed laser, 1xac20 w/ 2 tons of ammo, 1xsrm6 w/ 1 ton of ammo, STD 200, 2 JJs. Uniqueness: Steiner blue camo, along with JJ and larger engine capability, double hunch, capable of building one of the lightest mini atlas builds.

Something like that. It creates a different sort of gameplay feeling with this hero, rather than a dual hunch hero with only ballistics. It makes sense, but pretty much invalidates 4G by having more than one hunch of ballistic, as it's hard to use all 3 slots properly without having it being gimped, so it's preferable with one single hard hitting ac/gauss.

Edited by luxebo, 27 December 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[Sereglach]

I don't see this concept as invalidating the 4G at all. You also need to consider the kinds of weapons and technology that we'll be getting down the line. It will be very easy, in the future, for a Hunchback 4G to wield 2-3 Clan Ultra or LBX autocannons of various sizes. A Clan LBX-5, for example, is only 4 critical slots and 7 tons. People already cram 2 LBX 10's into a 4G, so it's not a far stretch to pull off a triple-Clan5.

This mech won't be able to do that, as it won't have the hardpoints. However, the mech you propose provides the best of both a 4H and a 4J . . . so you've invalidated two variants. You even state it would be capable of building one of the lightest mini-atlas builds. Your hardpoint loadout and proposed structure is also quite similar to a Shadowhawk. So why bother with the hero, in that case, when you can get the same thing with 5 more tons to work with?

Hero mechs need to have something truly unique, which this does propose. However, the feedback is appreciated and hopefully PGI looks at everything here to come up with something special. I would like to see the Hunchback get something nice when the cosmetic overhaul is done.

[luxebo]

I guess I'd have to look through the whole thing. I think I might change the lasers from arms to center torso only so 4H and 4J still have a benefit of energy. 4J deserves a buff in my opinion, maybe more missile tubes or more missile hardpoints. That was a concept that I do want, but still needs some changing as of now. The thing on potentially hurting 4G is that most of us (including me) prefer to stick to a large AC in there by itself because multiple acs or mgs would easily be destroyed. Maybe two acs, but I think it's best for large AC. I almost forgot as well, what would happen with Hunchback IIC placed? Would that completely also destroy this mech then? We'll just have to keep thinking. Maybe I'll also lose one of the hardpoints for missiles and maybe JJs and engine (but I do want the JJs and engine, missed those quite a lot from MW4 and MC2.) Both hunches might be then made into very giant hunches (like 4G sized ballistic, 4H sized missiles), then that may be balanced. Oh and mini-atlas would be very awkward, two med lasers, ac20, and two srm6s will be very light on armor and quite some speed loss. Tried this on treb 7K in smurfy.

[Dirus Nigh]

I like the idea. I think it would at the very least be an interesting addition to the HBK line up. Lets give it two ballistic slots in each side torso. I'd like to see some one stuff four AC2s in it.

Personally I fear what PGI will do to the HKB with the dynamic weapon changes. The hunchback is perfect as it is right now. In both proportion and style. It does not needs it's hunch screwed over. PGI will probably put a huge AC barrel sticking out of it which will make it even easier to hit.

[Racklesnack]

Just want to point out that since they've been doing founders mechs for hero's lately we will probably see a hero hunchy next month.

[Ryvucz]

Diego Angelus, on 27 December 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

So that suddenly makes it OK sigh

Yes, it does.

Regular mechs are free to play.

I'm sorry that you cannot have everything for free.

The good news is, with a Hero Hunchback, it is cheaper than heavy and assault class mechs.

[Sereglach]

Dirus Nigh, on 27 December 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

I like the idea. I think it would at the very least be an interesting addition to the HBK line up. Lets give it two ballistic slots in each side torso. I'd like to see some one stuff four AC2s in it.

Personally I fear what PGI will do to the HKB with the dynamic weapon changes. The hunchback is perfect as it is right now. In both proportion and style. It does not needs it's hunch screwed over. PGI will probably put a huge AC barrel sticking out of it which will make it even easier to hit.

I don't think they're going to give the Hunchback a huge barrel sticking out of the mech. If anything they may shrink the hunch, SLIGHTLY, and give it a small snub-barrel, depending on the Autocannon(s) loaded into it.

Also, you can't get greedy with the Hero mechs. As much as I think we'd all LOVE to have 2 ballistics in each shoulder, that's just horribly broken and makes it a truly advantageous mech over the standards. Heroes are meant to be equal, but unique, to their standard brethren.

luxebo, on 27 December 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

I guess I'd have to look through the whole thing. I think I might change the lasers from arms to center torso only so 4H and 4J still have a benefit of energy. 4J deserves a buff in my opinion, maybe more missile tubes or more missile hardpoints. That was a concept that I do want, but still needs some changing as of now. The thing on potentially hurting 4G is that most of us (including me) prefer to stick to a large AC in there by itself because multiple acs or mgs would easily be destroyed. Maybe two acs, but I think it's best for large AC. I almost forgot as well, what would happen with Hunchback IIC placed? Would that completely also destroy this mech then? We'll just have to keep thinking. Maybe I'll also lose one of the hardpoints for missiles and maybe JJs and engine (but I do want the JJs and engine, missed those quite a lot from MW4 and MC2.) Both hunches might be then made into very giant hunches (like 4G sized ballistic, 4H sized missiles), then that may be balanced. Oh and mini-atlas would be very awkward, two med lasers, ac20, and two srm6s will be very light on armor and quite some speed loss. Tried this on treb 7K in smurfy.

You've got some interesting concepts in there. However, a lot of it continues to make others obsolete.

Also, the more I debate it, the more I understand why NOT giving the hero jump jets could be necessary for balance. However, it depends on how it plays out. Giving it jump jets could require lowering its maximum engine down to 260 or something similar . . . or . . . maybe the others are due for a speed increase again.

Most Centurions, Hunchbacks, and Trebuchets are the slowest of the medium mechs. Most of the heavier mediums far outclass them in the potential speed department.

Mr Titan, on 27 December 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

Just want to point out that since they've been doing founders mechs for hero's lately we will probably see a hero hunchy next month.

I've noticed, and I'm looking forward to it.