13 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Right now, the MM will attempt to fit 'Mechs on a team by the traditional light-medium-heavy-assault ratings. While easy to understand, this also leads to some...er...broad mismatches at times. Most people understand an Awesome is not evenly matched against an Atlas, or a Jenner vs. the average Commando. I'd like to propose a 5-tier split instead.

Tier 1- 20-30 tons.

Right now, it's the Commando and Locust. These are often the first 'Mechs we see new players buy on their own, and they're currently also oft-dwarfed by their big bros in the Jenners, tearing everything else to bits. It also includes the Spider, which although faster is also more poorly armed with it's pair of CT energy hardpoints (or perhaps a few ballistics as well, but still...). Most of these 'Mechs are either lightly armored (by simply being so small), lightly armed, or both. Of course, there's the occasional Hero type in here and there's certainly room for more, like the Flea. Small, fragile when actually hit, and annoying as heck when they're not. Up a notch from them we have...

Tier 2- 35-45 tons.

Currently populated by the Jenner, Raven, Cicada, and Blackjack. Capable of good speed, excellent firepower, and a few odd tricks here and there. The latter is the wild card of the tier, but all most notably these have the ability to shoot and scoot to potent effect, even if the 'Jack isn't as nimble at it. On the other hand, not much in this tier wants to chew on it's Streak launchers, or it can just strap an AC/20 on and play super-Urbie. Just big enough to make you regret finding it landed behind you, kids.

Tier 3- 50-60 tons.

The Hunchback, Centurion, and Dragon started this, but we've had a host of new additions- from less seen Kintaros and Quickdraws to the popular and potent 55-ton trio of Shadow Hawks, Griffins, and Wolverines. Middle of the road in all kinds of ways- from heavy scout interceptors to medium fire support, this tier has seen it all. Still, they can't fling firepower with the same abandon as the heavier tiers, but they tend to make up with it by being capable specialists, or having solid hardpoint layouts combined with enough mobility to get out of trouble.

Tier 4- 65-80 tons.

Here's where we start to see the big guns- the LRM boats and Dakkapower of the Jagermech, the classic "heavy" Thunderbolts and Cataphracts, all the way up to the pocket assault Awesome and the bouncy brawling Victor. Capable of dishing it out AND taking it to an extent, though not to the bruising the really big guys can...

Tier 5- 85-100 tons.

It all started with one word: Atlas. Later on, the Stalker with it's damage-shedding profile and Highlander's mobile punch, or the tabletop poster boy Battlemaster. These are the "real assaults", the ones who can pump out enough firepower to tear a light 'Mech in half in one shot- if they can catch it - and take even a twin-20 Jagermech hit and keep on coming. None of them will ever make it to the fast lane, but it's the last thing you want to see coming through the tunnel in Frozen City.

Splitting the matchmaker into a 5-tier system helps smooth out some of the bumps in the road- where one team might have Locusts and the other Jenners, where an Awesome is a huge drawback vs. a Stalker or Highlander, but you wouldn't mind seeing it vs. a Jagermech. Dropping matchmaker weight differences to a maximum 10-15 tons instead of 15-20 actually makes a significant difference in potential matchups, and the five-tier split divides 'Mechs into more defined ranges for "This has a fair chance against that". While the matchmaker DEFINITELY has a host of other problems, this would solve one of the older and more grating ones.

[Khobai]

I agree. Putting the Awesome in the same category as the Atlas is as absurd as putting the Locust in the same category as the Jenner. So you really do need 5 tiers.

The way I think matchmaker should work is like this:
1) give each team 2 mechs from each tier
2) give each team 2 mechs from random tiers that add up to 6.
3) try to match players with similar elos whenever possible.

That way you get teams with balanced compositions and the 2 wildcards will prevent it from always being a mirror matchup.

[Varent]

I want to like this idea. But I also kinda see it as pretty bland. I guess it could have appeal to some people though. If your interested in it that is. I don't think id que up for it myself.

[wanderer]

Varent, on 10 January 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

I want to like this idea. But I also kinda see it as pretty bland. I guess it could have appeal to some people though. If your interested in it that is. I don't think id que up for it myself.

It's just a matter of the "weight" portion of the matchmaker being altered from being light-medium-heavy-assault to the 5 tiers I've got in the OP. Not JUST this, or even having some kinda "ONLY TIER 1 MECHS IN THIS MATCH!".

It just means that if a match has a 20 ton 'Mech on one side, the matchmaker looks for a 20-30 tonner instead of the 20-35 tonner it looks for instead. And so on up the line, narrowing the potential tonnage differences and increasing the odds that similar machines end up matched up against each other. Splitting the tonnage up into slightly smaller divisions makes it easier to balance teams- by far not the only thing needed, but it's a simple modification that goes a long way.

[Khobai]

Quote

It just means that if a match has a 20 ton 'Mech on one side, the matchmaker looks for a 20-30 tonner instead of the 20-35 tonner it looks for instead

yeah but mirror matchups are boring. there needs to be at least some random weight classes.

[wanderer]

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

yeah but mirror matchups are boring. there needs to be at least some random weight classes.

We get those randoms anyway when matchmakers can't fill in the gaps, but the point is that tonnage should be close for a fair fight.

Even 20-30 ton slots are 3 'Mechs, with the Flea being #4 eventually- so mirror matches are actually going to be rare, considering there's 12 different 'Mechs being matched up on each side.

[Craig Steele]

5 Catergories or 4 (Light, medium etc) its still the same theory, just a different mechanic on where you draw the line.

I get Locust and Jenner (for example) are not the same, but on a team basis, a Locust and SHD is (roughly) compable to a Jenner and Blackjack (vis a vis, firepower, armour etc)

So I guess as a team vs team environment, we can be a bit more flexible in the balancing rather than more narrow. Tonnage does this very effectivily in the current format but MM seemingly ignores this atm.

Imo its not about equal tonnages, it's about balanced tonnages. A 4 spider lance with Stalkers and Jag's is going to be a good challenge against to 4 Atlas's with Hunchbacks and Commando's.

Anyway, hopefully the new MM does actually adress the holes I and others are experiencing.

[wanderer]

Craig Steele, on 10 January 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

I get Locust and Jenner (for example) are not the same, but on a team basis, a Locust and SHD is (roughly) compable to a Jenner and Blackjack (vis a vis, firepower, armour etc)

Actually, they aren't. A Locust vaporizes when sneezed on, as do Commandos or even Spiders- that is, they're the point at which a single AC/20 hit is capable of one-shotting the target. 35 tons is about where you can survive that (if barely)- a Jenner is rarely oneshotted short of planting dual AC/20's into it or a headshot (but hey, that'll kill anything). Likewise, the Jenner and Blackjack in the aforementioned example can generate considerable amounts of firepower- either, compared to a Locust is a severe case of outgunning the bug. The closest to "decent firepower" in Tier 1 (20-30 tons) is the Commando with plenty of missile racks (poor SRMs) or perhaps a single ERLL (or in the COM's case, a PPC).

By comparison, that Tier 2 'Mech can and often IS running around with twice that in big guns, can even pack a Gauss or AC/20, and not fall apart when sneezed on. The difference between having a Tier 1 vs. a Tier 2 'Mech, especially in any numbers IS considerable.

Quote

Imo its not about equal tonnages, it's about balanced tonnages. A 4 spider lance with Stalkers and Jag's is going to be a good challenge against to 4 Atlas's with Hunchbacks and Commando's.

Again, a little tier-age makes a big difference. Those Jagermechs are tier 4- they can literally pack twice the guns as the tier 3 Hunchbacks- if you want a silly comparison, think about the Boomjager's with dual 20's vs the Hunchback with both lighter armor AND half the guns. Not so even, is it?

Splitting things into 5 tiers makes balancing those matches easier, and it doesn't even have to be equalized tonnages.

[vogor]

they should add arena matches. hay achilles did you here a squeak. lol love that movie robot jocks

Edited by vogor, 28 January 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[wanderer]

Private matches, already on the "coming eventually" docket.

[Craig Steele]

wanderer, on 26 January 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Actually, they aren't. A Locust vaporizes when sneezed on, as do Commandos or even Spiders- that is, they're the point at which a single AC/20 hit is capable of one-shotting the target. 35 tons is about where you can survive that (if barely)- a Jenner is rarely oneshotted short of planting dual AC/20's into it or a headshot (but hey, that'll kill anything). Likewise, the Jenner and Blackjack in the aforementioned example can generate considerable amounts of firepower- either, compared to a Locust is a severe case of outgunning the bug. The closest to "decent firepower" in Tier 1 (20-30 tons) is the Commando with plenty of missile racks (poor SRMs) or perhaps a single ERLL (or in the COM's case, a PPC).

By comparison, that Tier 2 'Mech can and often IS running around with twice that in big guns, can even pack a Gauss or AC/20, and not fall apart when sneezed on. The difference between having a Tier 1 vs. a Tier 2 'Mech, especially in any numbers IS considerable.



Again, a little tier-age makes a big difference. Those Jagermechs are tier 4- they can literally pack twice the guns as the tier 3 Hunchbacks- if you want a silly comparison, think about the Boomjager's with dual 20's vs the Hunchback with both lighter armor AND half the guns. Not so even, is it?

Splitting things into 5 tiers makes balancing those matches easier, and it doesn't even have to be equalized tonnages.

You're still comparing mechs one to one which is disregarding the "team aspect" of the game though.

A Locust vs a Jenner one on one is going to end badly for the Locust sure, but if played to its strengths I submit the Locust could stretch out that duel for some time. Some would say that some variants of the Locust will even dish some out.

And the SHD vs Blackjack duel is going to go to the SHD eventually, leaving a beat up SHD vs a singed Jenner. The variables are too numerous to say "same outcome every time" the point is that as you add more team members with an overall balance, tonnage is a very effective equalisier.

As for your Jag Hunchback comparison well thats a medium vs heavy so I think my point still stands for the balancing thing, but in any case that boom Jag is very thin on armour. 300 tons of hunchback vs 300 tons of Jags (thats 6 vs 5) would be an interesting fight.

I suspect it would come down to 3 cherry red CT Hunchbacks vs one yellow Jag and then it gets real


I just don't see we need another set of clasifications.

[Solis Obscuri]

It's a sound idea, and one I like much better than the current weight bracketing. Your idea deserves a bump after that last devblog on the Launch Module.

[wanderer]

Heh. Well, we're on the "Soon" for 3/3/3/3, and I'm looking at it with interest...but still, some foreboding given my opinions on how uneven two "lights" or two "assaults" can be compared to each other. Sadly, we're still likely to see one team with a Locust and the other a Jenner or Firestarter.

Waiting to see.

[wanderer]

Clantech time!

I think we all notice that no matter how you slice it, Clan machines are at least modestly better than IS ones currently.

Sooooo....where would they fit in?

Tier 1: Right now, nothing Clannish. The Dasher and Koshi, when/if they come out.

Kit Fox, Adder: While the Kit Fox is only 30 tons, it's a tougher and better gunned box than the IS 30-tonner. That puts it effectively in Tier 2, next to the Adder.

Nova, Stormcrow: Squarely in Tier 3.

Summoner: Tier 4. Later on, the Mad Dog/Vulture should fit in next to it, even if it's not here yet. Call it a really intuitive guess that it's here Soon™.

Timber Wolf, Warhawk, Dire Wolf : Say hello to tier 5, one and all. The Timber Wolf punches above it's weight considerably and slightly outstrips even the Dragon Slayer, can toss LRMs like a Stalker, and is tougher than it's 75 tons indicates. The other two obviously fit at the top with their assault-weight guns and firepower.