15 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

Customization between omnimechs and battlemechs (which is just basically Inner Sphere vs Clan in the current timeline) is going to lead to some interesting customization differences.

But the current idea of omnimechs by PGI is extremely hindered when compared with battlemechs:

• Armor customization
  
  • Omnimechs can not change the amount or type (standard vs FF).
    
  • Battlemechs can change both.
• Engine customization
  
  • Omnimechs can not change engine rating or type (standard vs XL).
    
  • Battlemechs can change both.
• Component customization
  
  • Omnimechs can not change any components (jump jets, ECM, ect).
    
  • Battlemechs can add or remove components that are allowed on that mech.
• Weapon customization
  
  • Omnimechs contain pods, which are a set of hardpoints, between sections.
    
  • Battlemechs have hardpoints already set for sections.

With this as the current idea for battlemechs and omnimechs, we can easily see that omnimechs are the worst of the two in terms of customization. Omnimechs can change absolutely nothing except for the number and type of hardpoints on locations.

But, hardpoint customization sounds like a huge bonus right? Far from the truth. Hardpoints have no other limitations except for the type of weapon, meaning that hardpoints are already extremely open in what they allow. Plus, battlemechs usually contain so many hardpoints of all kinds that there is only a small need to modify them.

But, working on this idea that omnimechs can have huge weapon customization at the expense of having a chassis limited customization while battlemechs can customize it's chassis but their hardpoints are locked, we need to have some new rules for hardpoints.

This is where hardpoint sizes should come into play. Think about this, if battlemechs can only equip a subset of weapons for it's hardpoints, meaning not only the type of weapon but also it's size, then for all the restrictions for customizing armor, engines, and components, omnimechs can heavily modify what available weapons can be equipped.

These hardpoint sizes would be the available critical slots allowed to be equipped on the mech. Basically, hardpoints should have three limiters, type, size per hardpoint, and number. The size value is a maximum number of critical slots available in a given location.

Take an AWS-8Q for example, each of it's locations would have 2x Energy (4) hardpoints. This means each location can equip up to 2 energy weapons, totaling up to 4 critical slots in each location. This would limit the Awesome to being one of the few mechs that can equip multiple PPCs.

Another example is the HBK-4G, it's hunch containing 3x Ballistic (12). The HBK-4H would have 1x Ballistic (7) / 2x Energy (2). This limits the HBK-4G to being one of the few mediums to be allowed to equip an AC/20.

Omnimechs, on the other hand, have no critical slot limits, just a number and type. This would allow any omnimech with a ballistic hardpoint to equip anything from a UAC/2 to LBX/20, on any type of mech. Omnimechs also should be allowed to swap pods out in the pre-drop lobby. This is easily done by knowing how much tonnage the mech has available, thus the player can develop multiple pods and equip them after seeing the drop environment.

This is a two fold solving fix. The first problem it fixes is the customization issues between what is expected of omnimechs and what is already known for battlemechs. The second problem it fixes is giving back the uniqueness of certain battlemechs that are completely overlooked due to the open ended customization of weapon hardpoints.

One drawback to this change, though, is that all the champion mechs would have to be refunded and removed because they are built on the old system (unless they already fit with the design of the mech). But this is a small price to pay to fix a huge problem between omnimechs, battlemechs, and poor chassis/variants.

Edited by Zyllos, 11 January 2014 - 09:35 AM.

[DocBach]

Yep, standard Battlemechs were too easily customized - some limit should have been in place to make changes like machine guns for AC/20's impossible so the OmniMech concept wasn't obsoleted before it launched.

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 11 January 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Yep, standard Battlemechs were too easily customized - some limit should have been in place to make changes like machine guns for AC/20's impossible so the OmniMech concept wasn't obsoleted before it launched.

The problem with that is we ave had the ability to customize our Mechs long before Clans and Video games. OmniMechs are the ideal all the "Competitive" Players are looking for. You cannot change this, add that or modify the other. You get to change the weapons... a little. The Top tier players should be waving their hands in the air in triumph.

[Sybreed]

Sounds like we need hardpoint sizes

[Joseph Mallan]

Sybreed, on 11 January 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

Sounds like we need hardpoint sizes

NOT for Omnis... and I just won't get used to s many people trying to make the game more restrictive!

[DocBach]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 January 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

NOT for Omnis... and I just won't get used to s many people trying to make the game more restrictive!

That should be the difference that makes OmniMechs more attractive.

On a standard Battlemech I might be able to upgrade a large laser to a PPC or an AC/10 to a 20, but I shouldn't be able to take out a two critical AC/2 for a 10 critical AC/20. There are tons of campaign rules in Battletech that say modifying 'Mechs is suppose to be difficult, expensive and that unless its a factory refit you can end up with quirks and problems.

Omnimechs are suppose to be the solution to that.

[Green Mamba]

Can WARHORNS go on OMNI Hardpoints ?

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 11 January 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

That should be the difference that makes OmniMechs more attractive.

On a standard Battlemech I might be able to upgrade a large laser to a PPC or an AC/10 to a 20, but I shouldn't be able to take out a two critical AC/2 for a 10 critical AC/20. There are tons of campaign rules in Battletech that say modifying 'Mechs is suppose to be difficult, expensive and that unless its a factory refit you can end up with quirks and problems.

Omnimechs are suppose to be the solution to that.

And bunches of tables that you roll on to see if your (Wisely hired) Master Technician can do in his sleep! We do not have actual time in game so how long did it take o get my Standard structure changed to Endo before I hit launch? Was it Months or minutes?

CBT writers put those restrictions on the Clans. I personally thought it was stupid and at my table an Omni had a set engine but Set Heat Sinks were only those that had to be in the Mech if a 245 or smaller Engine was in the Omni. Jump Jets, External sinks, and "Hard wired" Weapons were all Pod space.

[Bagheera]

DocBach, on 11 January 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

That should be the difference that makes OmniMechs more attractive.

While some people might find that sort of storytelling interesting, making one series of options blatantly better than the other makes for pretty ****** gaming.

Personally, I am amused at all the clanner tears over the unknown. Don't you worry, PGI will cave and you guys will get your munchkin mechs intact, I'm sure.

Edited by Bagheera, 11 January 2014 - 10:16 AM.

[DocBach]

Who's a Clanner crying?

I like the fact that they are keeping the Omnimech rules where Clanners will be stuck with whatever armor, engine, and structure the chassis has.

What I don't like is the amount of freedom we have with standard Battlemechs that allows you to pull off a machine gun and replace it with a 15 ton death cannon. It make 'Mechs that traditionally are known for carrying the death cannon obsoleted. 'Mechs no longer have a specific role (unless they can carry ECM), they just become skins for weapons.

[Sybreed]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 January 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

NOT for Omnis... and I just won't get used to s many people trying to make the game more restrictive!

I'll post a suggestion tonight that could please both parties. And, the reason so many people want to put some restrictions in the game is because they think it's for the best and will increase the fun factor.

[Bagheera]

DocBach, on 11 January 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Who's a Clanner crying?

I like the fact that they are keeping the Omnimech rules where Clanners will be stuck with whatever armor, engine, and structure the chassis has.

What I don't like is the amount of freedom we have with standard Battlemechs that allows you to pull off a machine gun and replace it with a 15 ton death cannon. It make 'Mechs that traditionally are known for carrying the death cannon obsoleted. 'Mechs no longer have a specific role (unless they can carry ECM), they just become skins for weapons.

And yet what you want is this:

DocBach, on 11 January 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

That should be the difference that makes OmniMechs more attractive.

Sounds to me like you are at least a little worried that you won't be getting the full munchkin when clan mechs are released. There is no other way to parse that sentence save for: "I think Omnis should be inherently better because that is what I expect out of the clans."

Sarna is chock full of "Field Upgrades" and "Field Retrofits" when describing variants of mechs. Why is it so hard for people to accept this? Sure, I could concede that the MG -> Heavy ballistic is a little silly (because it is), but the idea that IS mechs were never, ever tinkered with in the field is false.

Further, no matter what happens to customization - even if you took it away completely - mech variety in matches would not increase, it would just change slightly. There would be handful of "viable" stock mechs, and the rest would never be seen again. Also, the idea of mech "roles" in the current match structure is a little bit ... generous. We'd get more mileage by changing up the game-play to make variety more viable than we would making customization more strict or removing it completely.

Edited by Bagheera, 11 January 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[Zyllos]

Bagheera, on 11 January 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Sounds to me like you are at least a little worried that you won't be getting the full munchkin when clan mechs are released. There is no other way to parse that sentence save for: "I think Omnis should be inherently better because that is what I expect out of the clans."

Sarna is chock full of "Field Upgrades" and "Field Retrofits" when describing variants of mechs. Why is it so hard for people to accept this? Sure, I could concede that the MG -> Heavy ballistic is a little silly (because it is), but the idea that IS mechs were never, ever tinkered with in the field is false.

Further, no matter what happens to customization - even if you took it away completely - mech variety in matches would not increase, it would just change slightly. There would be handful of "viable" stock mechs, and the rest would never be seen again. Also, the idea of mech "roles" in the current match structure is a little bit ... generous. We'd get more mileage by changing up the game-play to make variety more viable than we would making customization more strict or removing it completely.

He was never trying to make "clans" just plan better. His statement is clearly to make Omnimechs more inline with Battlemechs, because PGI's current ideas make them complete garbage. And I don't want my opponents complete garbage.

Of course, PGI's current idea makes Clan Omnimechs and Inner Sphere Battlemechs available to both sides immediately and with no draw back...so basically there is no "Clan" or "Inner Sphere". There are just random groups of individuals fighting for whatever they want.

And why was my thread moved? This is a balancing discussion, even if the topic is about future content...

This thread is going to get zero exposure here...

Edited by Zyllos, 11 January 2014 - 01:55 PM.

[DocBach]

Bagheera, on 11 January 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Sarna is chock full of "Field Upgrades" and "Field Retrofits" when describing variants of mechs. Why is it so hard for people to accept this? Sure, I could concede that the MG -> Heavy ballistic is a little silly (because it is), but the idea that IS mechs were never, ever tinkered with in the field is false.

Further, no matter what happens to customization - even if you took it away completely - mech variety in matches would not increase, it would just change slightly. There would be handful of "viable" stock mechs, and the rest would never be seen again. Also, the idea of mech "roles" in the current match structure is a little bit ... generous. We'd get more mileage by changing up the game-play to make variety more viable than we would making customization more strict or removing it completely.

The field retrofits were limited upgrades in technical readout 3050 were were something like "well, this machine gun sucks so lets replace it with an AMS" or "wow, these Clanners have these crazy Toad infantry suits, I'm going to pull a medium laser out of the front and put two smalls in the rear so they can't sneak up on me."

There were also factory refits that did much more extensive upgrades to the 'Mechs such as changing internal structure/XL engines etc. Someone taking a stock Jagermech, adding endo, an XL and pulling its light caliber AC's out for two AC/20s would not be along the lines of a field retrofit.

Certain metas would be wiped out completely if they limited customization. You couldn't make a jump sniping Highlander, for example, if you made it impossible for a medium laser to become a PPC.

[Gyrok]

Bagheera, on 11 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

While some people might find that sort of storytelling interesting, making one series of options blatantly better than the other makes for pretty ****** gaming.

Personally, I am amused at all the clanner tears over the unknown. Don't you worry, PGI will cave and you guys will get your munchkin mechs intact, I'm sure.

He's not even a clansman, he's a merc...where's your theory now?

[Zyllos]

DocBach, on 12 January 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

The field retrofits were limited upgrades in technical readout 3050 were were something like "well, this machine gun sucks so lets replace it with an AMS" or "wow, these Clanners have these crazy Toad infantry suits, I'm going to pull a medium laser out of the front and put two smalls in the rear so they can't sneak up on me."

There were also factory refits that did much more extensive upgrades to the 'Mechs such as changing internal structure/XL engines etc. Someone taking a stock Jagermech, adding endo, an XL and pulling its light caliber AC's out for two AC/20s would not be along the lines of a field retrofit.

Certain metas would be wiped out completely if they limited customization. You couldn't make a jump sniping Highlander, for example, if you made it impossible for a medium laser to become a PPC.

While that would be a "unfortunate" effect of changing how customization is utilized, it gives mechs that have uniqueness back to them.

The changes are not wholly meant to diminish or dissolve a certain meta or build, and while I do not say that I think certain metas and builds need to be squished, there needs to be changes that reign in some of these builds while bringing back the Battletech style of the game.