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Logical Plead To Devs: Don't Kill Clan Tech; Incentivize


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#1 longwang

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 11:04 PM

As a prologue, please realize that what is written below is not a comprehensive plan/proposal. What it is is a collection of many possibilities, out of which an alternative to the current proposal for clan tech can be drawn. I strongly believe that clan tech and IS tech were designed around different styles of play. The current PGI proposal is to take clan tech and put it into the IS system, and nerfing it so that it is fair. Ultimately, this will not succeed.

Rather, I believe it to be better to incentivize/deincentivize the use of one tech over another based around pros and cons. For example, a pro of clan tech is that it is better. What pro on the IS balances this out? How can this pro be utlized in game? Is there a con to using the clan tech that makes chosing it affording other negative consequences? These are the better questions to ask when balancing game play.

I do want to state that I, whole heartedly agree with what the Devs are saying about game play and clantech. It shouldn't be a race to clan tech, with IS tech hanging in the background. However, the plan for incorporating clan tech into the game sucks. It eats away at the very nature of what makes this game interesting for so many people. Which is the ability to customize, experiment, and create something that is wholely your own, and omni mechs are the only things that offer this. The proposed balancing solutions will end up killing these good parts of the game, which is the highest levels of customization.

While not perfect, there has already been several systems in place which can be incorporated to account for this balancing need. What the right balance within these systems for MWO is I don't know, and that will take some play testing. However, these options, or a selectino of them, would be far better solution than the proposed dumbing downn of clan tech: CV, Weight.

The most common system for keeping battle tech games fair is with Combat Value. I believe that this is better than the proposed nerfing of clan tech for several reasons. First of all, the match maker system, suposedly, has been opperating on a similar idea but based on player's skill. The more skill you display (higher match score) the better the players you drop with, and vice versa.

For technology, this works by assigning points for certain items, mech stats, and I propose match score. It would work like this: Each item has so many points. As you install the item on the mech, the Combat Value (CV, or points) goes up. Then the final CV is adjusted based on the overall mech specs and match score. So, for example, if the fire power attribute is very high, but the heat efficiency is very low, then that would adjust the CV down. Also, if you are a better pilot, that would adjust the final CV up.

Then, it is a simple matter of matching one sides total CV to another side's total CV.

Do keep in mind though, that when Clan Tech is used, it's CV would be significantly higher. Meaning that, in most cases, a team of all Clan Tech will drop with fewer mechs than a team with all IS. If you would like read more about CV in the Battletech universe, you can follow this link, which includes problems and issues with the CV system.

Why this is preferable:
- Falls in line with Lore.
The clans have always been vastly outnumbered, and for them, this is a sport. To see how much they can conquer, with as little expenditure as possible on their side. While 12 vs 12 games is cool, I don't think that is worth the nerfing of clan tech. As long as 12/12 is an option, that is the most important thing.

- Maintains the feel of the game.
The current proposals feel like it is destroying the game. It severely limits the customization of mechs, and waters down the value of the technology. Lets keep the value of the technology and find other ways to maintain balance. I really want to see how fast I can get the Timber Wolf up to. I am not good at aiming, so I need more armor and more speed to stay alive long enough to some good.

- Changing between technologies
I assume that one of the intentions is to have plays go back and forth between technologies. If the operation of the technology varies too widely, it makes it difficult to switch from one to the other.

- Many warriors need it
Let's be honest here, I am not that good. My average match score is probably around 30-40. If the technology was nerfed so that it could compete, then there wouldn't be any benefit to using it.

Other ways to balance:
- Weight
This was kind of stated already, but just to clarify. It would be far more fun and more challenging to go up against a larger enemy force. So the more clan tech on a team, the lower the overall tonnage/mechs on that team.

- Penalties for clanners
Another way to discourage the use of Clan Tech is by adding penalties for it's use. While the greater technology may yield better performance, it comes with a cost that maybe worth it depending on how well you do in battle. Some possible examples:
  • Targeting:
    It is well known that in lore, the clans can only target one mech at a time as part of their honor system. So this can be forced in play by doing things like once a mech is fired upon, you can not swtch targets until that mech is destroyed. For many, this would be a deal breaker on clan tech. That is good as it will encourage the use of IS tech.
  • Honor system as part of loyalty
    Loyalty points that phoenix mechs are supposed to give is so unclear and useless (currently) it is not even funny. But, the clanners could use this to their advantage. If they fire on another mech that they are not currently targeting, it will hurt their honor (loyalty) score.
  • Repairs
    I don't know if repairs will ever be reintroduced and I am kind of torn about whether or not I think that is a good idea. However, due to the nature of the technology, clans should definetely have repairs, and the costs should be high. That way, you will need to kick significant ass if you want the use of the technology to remain worth while.
  • Fewer/no modules
    Let's be honest, the clanners focus mostly on skill. Lets use this as a way to claim fewer benefits. Besides, the benefit of using clan tech is better tech! Let modules be a perk for IS mechs that helps give them an advantage.
  • Lower rewards for destroying IS tech
    Clanners VS IS is not a fair fight. So why should warriors choosing clan tech be given the same rewards as those chosing IS? You see this in any game. Take traditional FPSs. If I kill a boss/bigger enemy, I get more rewards.
  • Traditional Economics
    Supply vs Demand. Make this something that is adjustable. So that the more Clan tech is being used, the greater the demand, so the more expensive it becomes. Then, IS tech is much cheaper. It would be cool if this value floats with actual demand, but I could see how that would be difficult. At least fixed prices that are much much higher for clanners.
  • No hero mechs
    This probably eats into the over all financial model of the game. But seriously, the clanners only have one hero and that's Kerensky. In fact, there are probably more heros in the clanners given the way the fight for glory. Maybe there can be some other benefit like 'blood name' and whatever that would do, but leave the heros to the IS.
- Buffs for IS
If penealties discourage the use of one technology, then buffs would encourage the use of another. This is where benefits can be given to the IS. The IS has vast amount of space, and all of its facilities are close at hand. The clanners are far from their home and don't have production and resources readily available. As such, the IS would have the following advantages:
  • Targeting:
    Honor doesn't mean anything to them. So they shoot whoever the hell they want! Let's be honest, this is the biggest advantage that the IS has over the clans. It will ultimately fail if you try to make different technologies fight in the same way. This is essentially what your current plan is. Make clan tech comparable to IS so you can play clan tech like an IS warrior. They are not the same, they can't be played the same if the match will be even.
  • Far cheaper repairs, if any
    IS mechs are every where, and they are cheaper/free. Let this be a reason to use them over clan tech. This means that you can advance through the ranks quicker, or change chasis more easily, upgrade, etc.
  • More and greater variety of modules
    This would be a really cool thing that would give IS mechs a much greater flexibility. It would also level the playing field. Not all the modules need to be available to the clanners. Especially things like Artillery and Airstrikes.
  • Greater rewards for destroying clan tech
    This is the best way. If you destroy an incredibly expensive component and get a 30% boost with your hero mech, that means major cash money. Especially when the cost to repair your mech is cheap/free. It means fast way to earn $$.
  • Heros, Champions, and economics
    See these points above. Save these things for the IS. Gives a strong reason to use IS tech.
- IS Omni mechs
The biggest reason that the current proposals for clan tech don't work is that when translated into IS omni mechs, they get a significant disadvantage. Why switch out one armfor another on a IS mech? Keep omni omni... any sized engine (with in reason, like currently done), any weapon any where there is a mount. This doesn't mean that you can stuff a bazillion lasers into one arm. Maybe just 2-3. Maybe if using ballistics, you can use fewer weapons in an area (bulkier) than using energy. Either way, the current proposals = poor IS omnis later.

The over all goal is to point out that there are other options. Nerfing the tech doesn't have to be. While I don't know for certain, it is my belief that players would agree.

Further more, in its current state, MWO is not a game. It is a simulator that allows us to shoot mechs. There is nothing to strive for, nothing to achieve, just walk and shoot. It would be far better to put effort into developing a meaningful game, like the one that has been promised since the beginning, but not delivered. This way, the purpose of a hero mech with 30% boost, or loyalty points actually mean something.

While I do gripe, I am over all satysfied with what has been done. I really hope that you were being honest in the dev Q&A video when you said you read these things, and take it to heart. The fans really care about these things, and do agree with the intentions. Let's work together on designing the implementation.

#2 Levi Porphyrogenitus

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 11:09 PM

Clan tech can be left in a superior position without it being utterly dominant. This is especially true given PGI's proposed handling of Omnimechs, which imposes some key limits on mech customization.

That said, unless they are willing to do things like asymetric drop sizes or disparate weight limits, they are pretty much going to have to do something with Clan tech to prevent it from rendering IS players utterly helpless. Reducing the advantages offered by Clan tech will go a very long way, especially considering that a given Clan weapon is going to be lighter and more compact, meaning they can cram in more weapons for a given payload size and weight. Their 2-critical DHS are going to be a key part of this.

What that means is, PGI can get away with some pretty significant stat reductions to Clan equipment (or mechanics balancing in some cases) and still leave them with an edge over IS mechs, though a far less insurmountable one.

#3 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 11:30 PM

I'd still love to see Clan Tech being able to be equipped on IS mechs, but with downsides to them such as...

Clan Energy Weapons are slightly hotter or longer recycle on IS mechs
Clan Ballistics have much slower velocities / range, or longer recycle rates on IS mechs

At least give us frigging Alt. Ammo types for our AC's if they plan on stagnating IS tech for the next 10 years. Or even better, give is ALL the IS tech and equipment we're supposed to have!

:(

#4 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 12:04 AM

View Postmwhighlander, on 03 February 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

I'd still love to see Clan Tech being able to be equipped on IS mechs, but with downsides to them such as...


they'd have to be pretty heavy downsides so that people don't just buy up higlanders and clanguass erppcs. leaving clan chassis {too inflexible} and IS tech {too weak} to the scrape heap. that's the exact arms race previous mech games have so much on both sides made redundant it wasn't funny.

IS + floating crits means uber access to stack equipment, boats are more possible with
+ many designs will be twice as fast as clanners

IS - stuff weigh more and aren't as powerfull

CLAN + less slots and tonnage on gear means more ability to stack weapons
+ hardpoints are configurable

CLAN - weapons run hotter cancling out extra DHS fitted
- hardwired gear means speed is fixed, and free critslots available are vastly reduced {no way to free up mech building limits} so big guns and ammo will be vastly reduced as well as additional heatsinks


all boats suffer Ghost heat

that last negative clearly puts clans at a disvantage, GH kills alpha spamming and there's little way to bulk up on big meta guns without running low on ammo or shutting down so many times. in fact it wouldn't surprise me if the UAc20's and gauss boats won't happen because an odd critslot stops it be fitted and if it could 2 tons ammo tops! and erppcs will run way too hot and we know lasers are having their hit scan drawn out that an atlas will run away from half the afflicted damage. yep i think the IS will have greater means to handle themselves on the battlefield, and we haven't even seen the deployment numbers or 3d scaling etc etc. no mixed tech makes it a lot easier to balance sides {i presume they won't be mix drops or that plan is blown out the water} but really the main thing to remember is IS and CLanners will always have dead mechs and meta mechs. be sad that pop sniping will most likely continue...

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 04 February 2014 - 12:07 AM.


#5 and zero

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 12:26 AM

PGI and logical in the same sentence??

LOL. Yea, ok.

#6 Craig Steele

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 12:49 AM

The challenge is that the more attractive you make Clan Tech for a player, the more players will use it.

Resulting in less IS players.

Resulting in the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

You could argue that Clan v Clan is canon, no argument from me, but that moves the game away from the IS and into the Pentagon.

#7 ReXspec

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 12:49 AM

Incorporating Combat Value or Battle Value into matchmaking it pretty much what a lot of people are pushing for...

It would not only reduce the amount of lob-sided matches, but it would eliminate the need to nerf clan tech, make it a shadow of it's former self, and over-complicating the already borked and complicated balance mechanics that are present in MWO right now.

You have to remember that in canon, when the Clans invaded, there was a MASSIVE economic and military incentive for Clan tech, or researching tech that could compete with clan tech.

Both PGI and the players need to get off the notion that this is somehow WRONG. It isn't. It's simply asymmetrical warfare. Not every piece of weaponry or tech can be made useful all the time. Some weapons in the innersphere were simply rendered obsolete at the advent of newer technologies such as X-pulse lasers, MRMs, new gauss variants, and various other pieces of I.S./Clan hybrid tech that was either produced by the I.S., traded from the Clans, or hijacked from Clan 'mechs.

Edited by ReXspec, 04 February 2014 - 12:57 AM.


#8 Wolfways

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 01:01 AM

View Postlongwang, on 03 February 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

a pro of clan tech is that it is better.

No it isn't...a least not in MWO. I really don't understand how people don't see this.

#9 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 01:11 AM

View PostWolfways, on 04 February 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

No it isn't...a least not in MWO. I really don't understand how people don't see this.


If you actually read his post he means REAL clan tech and not an excuse that PGI is calling clan tech.

View PostReXspec, on 04 February 2014 - 12:49 AM, said:

Incorporating Combat Value or Battle Value into matchmaking it pretty much what a lot of people are pushing for...

It would not only reduce the amount of lob-sided matches, but it would eliminate the need to nerf clan tech, make it a shadow of it's former self, and over-complicating the already borked and complicated balance mechanics that are present in MWO right now.

You have to remember that in canon, when the Clans invaded, there was a MASSIVE economic and military incentive for Clan tech, or researching tech that could compete with clan tech.

Both PGI and the players need to get off the notion that this is somehow WRONG. It isn't. It's simply asymmetrical warfare. Not every piece of weaponry or tech can be made useful all the time. Some weapons in the innersphere were simply rendered obsolete at the advent of newer technologies such as X-pulse lasers, MRMs, new gauss variants, and various other pieces of I.S./Clan hybrid tech that was either produced by the I.S., traded from the Clans, or hijacked from Clan 'mechs.


QFT.
1 star of clanners vs 2 lances of IS always did sound about right.

#10 longwang

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 01:41 AM

I am actually really glad to see people engaging in some interesting discussion around this. I'm kind of curious which, if any, of the alternatives would people prefer? CV/BV is decent, but that means that asymetrical matches are a possibility. That was the only way to compete with clans in cannon.

However, is it reasonable to say that you get punished for attacking more than one target if you use clan tech? Surely people wouldn't argue that greater costs of use + lower rewords (more difficult to maintain) would be acceptable, right? No hero clan mechs? More modules for IS?

What combination of those would work best?

Thank you for keeping this topic in the forefront. The more often it comes up, the more important the devs will realize this issue is. I know I would be much more inclined to purchase a collection if I knew how it was going to opperate, and that it would be a worth while investment.

#11 Vidarok

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 01:52 AM

That was a good read. And I think any sane person would like to maintain an incentive to use IS mechs and tech. It's a fair notion that you have, but I fear PGI will not listen. We already have IS 'mechs that are being phased out slowly but surely. I will use them anyway, because it's not something typical. In reality, I am just gimping myself.

#12 Craig Steele

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 02:06 AM

The Clan vs IS debate focussed on tech alone to try and maintain a "semblance" of canon is flawed.

Clan were better pilots, vastly better pilots on average. Unless PGI are going to limit Clan mechs to only those players in the top 10% of ELO (I bet they don't) then to capture the feel of Clan canon means BUFFING Clan Tech, to account for the general population lower average skill set.

The Clans had the surprise factor, both strategically and tactically. There was no reason to activily evade fire at 750+ until the clans came along and the flow of tactical information up and back down the line from obliterated units routing to the interior was tedious to say the least. Players know this already, how to stop an IS pilot from using "unknown" knowledge about capabilities or weapons.

Lastly, Star League Tech was only just starting to filter through to IS units in 3049, in patches and as refits mostly. So the 5 vs 12 holds good for all the low tech mechs, but MWO everyone has Star League techs, and better flexibility than Clan Omni mechs in a lot of ways.

If you want a canon experience, you need solutions to these challenges to.

In 3067, IS Tech and Clan tech were broadly comparable and tactics had caught up, as had casuality rates / pilot experience. I think a balanced MWO Clan vs IS tech is simply reflecting a later timeline and PGI have been generous in timeline movement before.

No biggy.

#13 longwang

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 02:39 AM

View PostCraig Steele, on 04 February 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

The Clan vs IS debate focussed on tech alone to try and maintain a "semblance" of canon is flawed.


I actually agree with, which is why I made the original post. So far, the only solution seems to have been to dumb down clan tech. That is no good. All games with different factions always have strengths and weaknesses for different factions. Why should this be any different?

Let's not focus on killing the clan tech, and add some quirks for clans/IS.

#14 Reza Malin

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 02:54 AM

First of all, for supposed fans, looking at most of the signatures of people commenting here, I'm surprised any of you bother playing at all. Talk about negativity. If i was a developer, and i was prowling these forums, i would just think anyone with a whiny signature was a {Richard Cameron}. Im not saying you are, but that's the impression it gives. Just saying.

Anyway, i thought i would offer a unique perspective on this conversation, try and ground it in the real world. I know very little of battletech, or the MechWarrior lore. However i have loved the idea of it for a long, long time and really enjoy playing this game. As someone who knows nothing much of the lore here is my take on introducing clan tech, in the context of some of the OP's points for keeping clan tech overpowered. Because after looking at the stats for some canon clan tech weapons, thats exactly what it is.

I have been playing since October, so while i know nothing of the lore, i know how to play the game well enough. My experience is, a lot of MechWarrior veterans are the people who drop in premades, and get right into the whole thing. A lot of people who don't care that much for the lore, i think drop in pugs. I don't know for sure but its what it seems to me.

I know the people who follow the lore, want everything as canon as possible. I have a friend who is really into it all, and he said if they can't do it canon, they shouldn't do it at all. I personally think this is bullshit. This is a good game, even as it stands now, without some of the forthcoming content such as UI2.0 and CW, its still a good game. Don't kill it because of 'canon'

At the end of the day, all people want clan tech for is new goodies. Don't chuck around all this crap about lore, this isn't an RPG. Half of you veteran MechWarrior players just want all the clan tech because its simply better, and you rub your hands together in anticipation of even more damage you could do in your premade drops. Well thats all well and good, but the learning curve for this game is already high enough for new players as it is. You can whine about how others should just drop in premades too but it isn't that simple. People find it hard to get into this game, and i have to say, i almost didn't bother myself after getting totally kerbstomped a few times when i started out. However i persevered. Some simply wont bother, there are plenty of other games to play out there.

Clan tech needs to be balanced. As PGI are proposing. The OP, no offence, but clearly has dreams of dropping in with a couple of friends and laying waste to hordes of IS mechs with his OP clan gear, then arrogantly typing 'GG' at the end, knowing very well he doesn't mean it. Just like is happening right now anyway to a lesser extent. I can see the appeal, but you need to think about what you are saying.

All you old school MW fans need to weigh up how much having OP canon clan tech means to you over how much you want to play a good, balanced MW game for years to come. Because i can tell you this, if clan tech opens a gap away from IS mechs, within a few months of it launching, you will find yourself walking an empty battlefield and the game will start to die.

Think of it this way, from another perspective. New player. Logs in first time, launches game in his trial mech, already steaming before he has even fired a shot. Goes up against a team of clan mechs. In fact, lets expand the idea, 12 new/inexperienced players, against 6 clan mechs. Do you really think, the numbers will make any difference over good, well built clan mechs with OP gear? There are already faceroll matches going on more frequently than i would like, where teams lose no mechs or maybe 1 or 2. You think this would be any better with clan tech? You think that new player would be back?

Just wake up and smell the coffee. You cant put canon clan tech into the game, and if you do, then you clearly don't want this game to succeed. Because no one wants to be that dude, sat in his IS mech, red lights flashing, wondering why he died so fast. Now, whether that dude happens to be you or not, somewhere that dude still exists regardless...Just balance it and get over it in your head.

"In 3067, IS Tech and Clan tech were broadly comparable and tactics had caught up, as had casuality rates / pilot experience. I think a balanced MWO Clan vs IS tech is simply reflecting a later timeline and PGI have been generous in timeline movement before.

No biggy. "

This is what a guy above me posted. I think he is on to a winner.

Edited by Fade Akira, 04 February 2014 - 02:55 AM.


#15 Craig Steele

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 03:01 AM

View Postlongwang, on 04 February 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:


I actually agree with, which is why I made the original post. So far, the only solution seems to have been to dumb down clan tech. That is no good. All games with different factions always have strengths and weaknesses for different factions. Why should this be any different?

Let's not focus on killing the clan tech, and add some quirks for clans/IS.


I get where you're coming from, but fundamentally what you seem to be saying is lets make Clan tech OP (comparably) and incentivize / dis incentivize with other options.

Thats a hard route if your goal is a canon experience. All you will get is bucket loads of average players in Clan mechs (cause they're OP) and trashing it up.

#16 longwang

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 03:48 AM

Good points, glad to hear that people are pointing out that MWO is not battletech, though it is based on the same content. There needs to be other factors that balance the game. If everything was going by lore, every weapon would have the same cool down time. By having different cool down times, the AC/2 & 5 viable weapons. Otherwise, if they fired as often as the AC/20, what's the point?

It should be clarified, I think, that I do not want clan tech to be over powered. The point is to make the game balanced in other ways. I drop every game as a pug. Honestly, I am not so naive as to think that running around doing as much damage as possible is the best option. It is not a good option for a free online game that relies on a large base of players/users to stay alive.

But what are the other options? Don't you think that it would be kind of boring if Clan tech had all the same advantages as IS tech? That is essentially what the current proposal is saying. Make the clan like the inner sphere so that the IS can compete. That's dumb. Make the clans unique. Let clan tech have unique abilities. Let clan tech have more power. But make us PAY for that power. Make us pay with XP, make us pay with C-bills, make us pay with fewer modules, make us pay by being vastly outnumbered. The clan tech must introduce a different challenge. Don't make clan tech dumb so that it competes with the same challanges as the IS tech.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't mind SOME dumbing down. But this is too extreme. I will not be able to use clan mechs. I need speed, and I need armor to survive. While comparabley, clan mechs have more speed on average, they generally tend to focus on fire power. If my play style is guerilla, most clan mechs aren't fast enough for that. The average clan mech will do ~ 80 kph if it's heavy. That is as fast as my assaults! Most of my heavies do 90+. So if I can't shoot, what good does a clan mech do for my play style?

Ultimately, what the devs are proposing is to make the stomping games more likely. Why? Because clan mechs are about fire power. If you can't change the engine, then you have to keep the fire power. So the players who already are good at aiming, and prefer to play killing people as fast as possible gain an advantage.

Why should I not be able to adapt an omni mech to my play style? Use other handicaps on clan tech. Again, price, XP, one target at a time, fewer team mates, etc. That way clan mechs can be an option for players with various styles.

#17 Craig Steele

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 03:56 AM

View Postlongwang, on 04 February 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:


But what are the other options? Don't you think that it would be kind of boring if Clan tech had all the same advantages as IS tech? That is essentially what the current proposal is saying. Make the clan like the inner sphere so that the IS can compete. That's dumb. Make the clans unique. Let clan tech have unique abilities. Let clan tech have more power. But make us PAY for that power. Make us pay with XP, make us pay with C-bills, make us pay with fewer modules, make us pay by being vastly outnumbered. The clan tech must introduce a different challenge. Don't make clan tech dumb so that it competes with the same challanges as the IS tech.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't mind SOME dumbing down. But this is too extreme. I will not be able to use clan mechs. I need speed, and I need armor to survive. While comparabley, clan mechs have more speed on average, they generally tend to focus on fire power. If my play style is guerilla, most clan mechs aren't fast enough for that. The average clan mech will do ~ 80 kph if it's heavy. That is as fast as my assaults! Most of my heavies do 90+. So if I can't shoot, what good does a clan mech do for my play style?



I get your sentiment, but the other way of looking at this is that it is the IS that has been brought up to Clan standards.

Know any canon where EVERY mech had engine options? Or you could slip in Endo Steel and DHS at will. Know any Canon where a chassis comes in different variants that could be field converted. LRM in, SRM out type of stuff? There are lots of canon examples where just adding one weapon to the manufactured model "taxed the targeting computer" so as to make it unworkable.

I think in a lot of ways PGI rolled out the Clans first, with IS badges.

The number of IS Assualts that do 90kph I can count on one hand, except in MWO. Sounds like you're already living the Clan experience :(

#18 longwang

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:02 AM

View PostFade Akira, on 04 February 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

Clan tech needs to be balanced. As PGI are proposing. The OP, no offence, but clearly has dreams of dropping in with a couple of friends and laying waste to hordes of IS mechs with his OP clan gear, then arrogantly typing 'GG' at the end, knowing very well he doesn't mean it. Just like is happening right now anyway to a lesser extent. I can see the appeal, but you need to think about what you are saying.


For some reason, my original point did not come across. What you wrote above is a bad idea. While I do find it insulting as you point out some that is 'clear' only shows that there were problems being able to read. Why does your response show that you weren't reading

We want the same thing!!

Maybe big bold letters makes the point more understandable. No clan mechs, with premades, destroying everything. That is bad. That is very very bad. I am a very bad player. If this were to happen, I wouldn't play MWO because I would get my ass kicked and the game would lose all meaning.

Now that it is clear, let's discuss: What are the options available to keep this from happening?

- Option 1: Make clanners exactly the same as IS by weakening the technology.
This is PGI's proposal. There will need to be some of this to keep the game balanced.

- Option 2: Make the use of Clan tech have so many consequences, that you think twice about using
This is what I am saying.

Would you really want to pilot a clan mech if you could ONLY TARGET 1 mech? And if you did fire on a mech your not targeting, you get hit with a punishment, similar to, though maybe not as severe as a Team Kill? Most people wouldn't. Because they like to have 10 mechs shoot one, so it goes down as fast as possible and and it is a clean sweep.

Please, don't assume things about other people and their intentions. It is rather insulting, it makes you look like an ******* if you turn out to be wrong, and diverts the conversation away from something productive.

#19 ssm

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:04 AM

View PostCraig Steele, on 04 February 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:


I get where you're coming from, but fundamentally what you seem to be saying is lets make Clan tech OP (comparably) and incentivize / dis incentivize with other options.

Thats a hard route if your goal is a canon experience. All you will get is bucket loads of average players in Clan mechs (cause they're OP) and trashing it up.

And that's here is the main problem.

Lore-adherent OP Clan mechs, regardless if drops would be balanced by CV/BV/numbers/weight would offer, at least for majority of players, better game experience.

It's simply more fun to be individually superior, less-reliant on teammates, and be able to fight and win against 2 IS opponents not on the merit od skill, but simply access to better tech.

And then, what will happen to CW when there won't be enough players to reasonably populate no less than six IS factions?
It would be dead - and shortly after - so would be MWO.

View Postlongwang, on 04 February 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

(...)
Would you really want to pilot a clan mech if you could ONLY TARGET 1 mech? And if you did fire on a mech your not targeting, you get hit with a punishment, similar to, though maybe not as severe as a Team Kill? Most people wouldn't. Because they like to have 10 mechs shoot one, so it goes down as fast as possible and and it is a clean sweep.
(...)

Well, here is another. There is enough people here that wouldn't care about penalties at all. They either buy Clan pack for real money, or have enough C-bill stashed to buy all Clan mechs twice over.

And why would they care if even they got even negative awards for winning the match, if that match was incredibly cool cannon-fodder-blasting rolfstomp?

Edited by ssm, 04 February 2014 - 04:09 AM.


#20 Craig Steele

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:08 AM

View Postssm, on 04 February 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

And that's here is the main problem.

Lore-adherent OP Clan mechs, regardless if drops would be balanced by CV/BV/numbers/weight would offer, at least for majority of players, better game experience.

It's simply more fun to be individually superior, less-reliant on teammates, and be able to fight and win against 2 IS opponents not on the merit od skill, but simply access to better tech.

And then, what will happen to CW when there won't be enough players to reasonably populate no less than six IS factions?
It would be dead - and shortly after - so would be MWO.


I disagree it would be a better experieince. For the minority in Clan tech perhaps, but we would have is sub par pilots (like me :() flogging around in Madcats trying to take on 2 to 1, 3 to 1 odds. The tech won't compensate unless its buffed to all heck which I have to assume it is. Other wise the IS pilots will go, ho um, not enough KS again.

Or, (and more likely) we have so much population in Clan mechs that the CW ends up in the pentagon worlds and IS is a "oh what, well if they won't fight I can't make em" proposition for Clan pilots.





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