239 replies to this topic

[Ngamok]

Roland, on 13 February 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I always laugh when folks say they actually paid money to drive Clan mechs, given how we essentially have zero idea how they are going to be incorporated into the game at this point.

You midaswell have paid for magic beans.

Which is why I have been holding off. Unless I had a clear cut idea, I would purchase the Thor package at $90 and just wait to buy the Stormcrows for C-Bills because I don't want to go $180 in for them.

[Belorion]

Roland, on 13 February 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I always laugh when folks say they actually paid money to drive Clan mechs, given how we essentially have zero idea how they are going to be incorporated into the game at this point.

You midaswell have paid for magic beans.

Due to some key issue like the crit slots, and the XL changes they can't help but have advantages. The only balancing they could do on the other things to make them balanced would be to make them worse than the normal weapon variants. Why us a UAC-20 when the AC-20 does more damage and more DPS, but at that point why make it at all?

[wanderer]

Craig Steele, on 13 February 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

Its got NOTHING to do with loyalties, you are confusing factions with lore. PGI are not restricting mechs to factions.

So the IS Marik guy will select his (insert Clan Mech here) to fight his Marik campaign.

If they don't, they've pretty much shot the whole concept of factions or multiple tech trees in the head and failed community warfare before it even began. Clan 'Mechs don't belong in IS groups, IS 'Mechs don't belong in Clan ones. They do that, we have people cherrypicking the most efficient variety of pudding for the job at hand and we can watch the Clan Invasion play out with as many of the "Clan" pilots in IS 'Mechs as they are Clan ones, since that'll require nerfing Clantech into the ground and making them possess massive flaws to balance out whatever advantages they can't nerf otherwise to bring them into line.

The two should never be intergrated to begin with. Clan tech can't be put on IS 'Mechs, Clan 'Mechs should never show up in IS ranks (historically at this point, you could count on one hand the number of IS pilots in Clantech 'Mechs and have fingers left over- and they were named "Kurita" and "Steiner-Davion" - and salvaged Clan 'Mechs/war material were both impossibly rare to come by and being yoinked back to research facilities to be used to produce the 3060 advances in IS weapon tech and the first IS Omnimechs.

Clan tech needs to be balanced against itself, and numerically/tonnage balanced vs. IS forces rather than attempting to make a Clan 'Mech "equal" to a IS one. They simply can't be fielded in the same numbers, and numerical advantage is huge in MWO.

[Mystere]

Craig Steele, on 12 February 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

Absolute rubbish.

That means Clan tech will have to be superior to IS tech.

Players will gravitate to Clan mechs, player population is mostly Clan, we fight over Pentagon and Clan space, IS warfare dies.

The only players who will be (initially) gravitating to Clan mechs are the ones who will be buying the Clan packs. And most of you people are not planning to buy right?










<maniacal >

[NRP]

This is great news! At this point, I would rather have Clan mechs face superior IS numbers than have Clan tech nerfed to hell such that Clan mechs = reskinned IS mechs.

This should allow for battles to "feel" like an invasion and will definitely allow each tech to retain it's uniqueness.

[Roland]

Belorion, on 13 February 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

Due to some key issue like the crit slots, and the XL changes they can't help but have advantages. The only balancing they could do on the other things to make them balanced would be to make them worse than the normal weapon variants. Why us a UAC-20 when the AC-20 does more damage and more DPS, but at that point why make it at all?

The thing is though, you have no idea how clan mechs will work, within the context of actually playing with other people.

For instance, the comments in this thread from the developers suggest that each team will only have either clan our inner sphere mechs. So how is that going to impact your ability to play with other people? If you buy clan mechs, but your friends don't, then what will happen?

Who knows? We have no information.

We don't even know how community warfare will work with only one sphere units, much less with the addition of clan mechs.

The idea that folks would pay money for clan mechs, given a complete lack of information of how they will fit into the game is crazy town.

[Varent]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

from Bryan Ekman's twitter:
@EineNeueWelt @Paul_Inouye it will most likely end up at 10 v 12 Stars vs Lances. The guys were being cautious for now.

thoughts?

With the changes to clan technology so far this could end up decent. Before clan tech was way to powered. Allowing 2 less mechs now with the lowered tech COULD put it in balance. That said alot of playtesting would still be needed to determine how it would work.

[Iskareot]

Craig Steele, on 12 February 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

Except it won't be 10 vs 12, it will be 10 vs 10.

Who is going to WANT to go into a battle with a mech / tech disadvantage? Especially PUG's or small teams who know that they will rely on team mates to cover the technology gap.

None if they do not offer a pug choice to play and avoid this I will quit and so will numerous pug solo players.

It's been long enough being forced into team play drops that I have no part in, so with this it will be worse.

[Belorion]

Roland, on 13 February 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

The thing is though, you have no idea how clan mechs will work, within the context of actually playing with other people.

For instance, the comments in this thread from the developers suggest that each team will only have either clan our inner sphere mechs. So how is that going to impact your ability to play with other people? If you buy clan mechs, but your friends don't, then what will happen?

Who knows? We have no information.

We don't even know how community warfare will work with only one sphere units, much less with the addition of clan mechs.

The idea that folks would pay money for clan mechs, given a complete lack of information of how they will fit into the game is crazy town.

I think you have hit upon a key point here, and one which I have been stating for weeks is the reason I won't buy a Clan package.

They need to make this explicitly clear. Will we or will we not be able to drop in mixed units with clan and IS mechs?

If the answer is no, then that kind of sucks and I won't buy a clan package since I have no desire to play Clan at all. If the answer is yes, then I may buy a package, but then what is to keep everyone from playing IS with Clan mechs, since they will be superior. Then at that point the 12 v 10 no longer makes sense.

Questions that need answers.

[Cimarb]

Based off of the newest update by Thomas D. (http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3150569), I am starting to think that PGI is skipping the actual invasion part and keeping with the timeline.

That would mean that, by the time of whatever Thomas is saying about Tukayyid happens, IS will technically have already started scavenging Clan tech and implementing it on IS mechs. If so, the mechs will be "balanced", but in the favor of the IS being buffed, not the Clans being nerfed.

Think of a scale: if you want to balance the two sides, you can either add weight to one side or take weight from the other, but either way the amount on each side doesn't matter as long as the end result - balance - is achieved.

(Edit for link)

Edited by Cimarb, 13 February 2014 - 01:56 PM.

[Kaeseblock]

I'm actually hoping for the following way of implementation:

• Clan Mechs arrive and get balanced for 12vs12 (so they are as strong as IS Mechs but use a different way of altering the loadout - interchangeable Mech-parts etc.)
  
• 10vs12 gets implemented for CW-fights between Clanners and IS Loyalists / Mercs, Clanners get higher tonnage limits and/or some other buffs (just for this game-mode, example: their weapons deal 1.2 times the normal damage)

As long as Clan-tech is balanced with IS-tech I'm fine since this will allow drops of mixed IS-Clan mech groups in PUGs (aka: dropping with friends, playing for fun )

But thats just my two cents on the topic.

[Cimarb]

Kaeseblock, on 13 February 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'm actually hoping for the following way of implementation:

• Clan Mechs arrive and get balanced for 12vs12 (so they are as strong as IS Mechs but use a different way of altering the loadout - interchangeable Mech-parts etc.)
  
• 10vs12 gets implemented for CW-fights between Clanners and IS Loyalists / Mercs, Clanners get higher tonnage limits and/or some other buffs (just for this game-mode, example: their weapons deal 1.2 times the normal damage)

As long as Clan-tech is balanced with IS-tech I'm fine since this will allow drops of mixed IS-Clan mech groups in PUGs (aka: dropping with friends, playing for fun )

But thats just my two cents on the topic.

I think that's a good way to do it. I don't agree about the x1.2 damage and think it should be something more along the lines of more advantageous positioning, less resources/points needed to win, or something else that is not damage-related, but it was just an example like mine are - having varied "bonuses" would make matches more interesting anyways.

[anubis969]

wanderer, on 13 February 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Spoiler

If they don't, they've pretty much shot the whole concept of factions or multiple tech trees in the head and failed community warfare before it even began. Clan 'Mechs don't belong in IS groups, IS 'Mechs don't belong in Clan ones. They do that, we have people cherrypicking the most efficient variety of pudding for the job at hand and we can watch the Clan Invasion play out with as many of the "Clan" pilots in IS 'Mechs as they are Clan ones, since that'll require nerfing Clantech into the ground and making them possess massive flaws to balance out whatever advantages they can't nerf otherwise to bring them into line.

The two should never be intergrated to begin with. Clan tech can't be put on IS 'Mechs, Clan 'Mechs should never show up in IS ranks (historically at this point, you could count on one hand the number of IS pilots in Clantech 'Mechs and have fingers left over- and they were named "Kurita" and "Steiner-Davion" - and salvaged Clan 'Mechs/war material were both impossibly rare to come by and being yoinked back to research facilities to be used to produce the 3060 advances in IS weapon tech and the first IS Omnimechs.

Clan tech needs to be balanced against itself, and numerically/tonnage balanced vs. IS forces rather than attempting to make a Clan 'Mech "equal" to a IS one. They simply can't be fielded in the same numbers, and numerical advantage is huge in MWO.

While I agree with you for the most part, the trouble is that Bryan stated on twitter back in December that IS players will be able to use clan 'mechs:

Quote

Ed Steele ‏@EdSteeleMWO Dec 19
@bryanekman I have a Christmas bonus on the way, so give me some info that would make an IS player want a clan pack.

Bryan Ekman ‏@bryanekman Dec 19
@EdSteeleMWO lore - battlefield salvaged mechs put into service under your command. Still a valiant IS MechWarrior ready to kill clanners.

Ed Steele ‏@EdSteeleMWO Dec 19
@bryanekman Good answer, I will "salvage" some clan mechs with my credit card shortly!

And as you can see there are players that choose to buy the clan 'mechs because of that information. If PGI now decide to restrict clan 'mechs to clan players only, they are going to have some very unhappy customers.

Basically whatever PGI does with this whole clan debacle they are going to end up shooting themselves in the foot. It just remains to be seen which one.

Cimarb, on 13 February 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

That would mean that, by the time of whatever Thomas is saying about Tukayyid happens, IS will technically have already started scavenging Clan tech and implementing it on IS mechs. If so, the mechs will be "balanced", but in the favor of the IS being buffed, not the Clans being nerfed.

According to the Omnimech Rules and Construction post from last week mix tech will not be allowed. Nice thinking but there will be no clan tech on IS 'mechs I'm afraid. "Salvaged" clan 'mechs piloted by IS pilots however is another matter (see above).

Source:
http://mwomercs.com/...d-construction/

Edited by anubis969, 13 February 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[Kaeseblock]

Cimarb, on 13 February 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

I think that's a good way to do it. I don't agree about the x1.2 damage and think it should be something more along the lines of more advantageous positioning, less resources/points needed to win, or something else that is not damage-related, but it was just an example like mine are - having varied "bonuses" would make matches more interesting anyways.

The 1.2 times damage was just a random example I made up, so let your imaginations run wild about possible balancing-adaptions to the gameplay

Edit: typo...

Edited by Kaeseblock, 13 February 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[Belorion]

anubis969, on 13 February 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

While I agree with you for the most part, the trouble is that Bryan stated on twitter back in December that IS players will be able to use clan 'mechs:

He never said we could use them in CW... and the 12 v 10 conversation certainly lends itself to the fact IS pilots will not be able to use Clan mechs in the CW drops.

[anubis969]

Belorion, on 13 February 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

He never said we could use them in CW... and the 12 v 10 conversation certainly lends itself to the fact IS pilots will not be able to use Clan mechs in the CW drops.

Your assuming that CW matches will be separate from standard public matches. PGI's latest communications regarding CW that I have seen do not support such an assumption. For example:
http://mwomercs.com/...-launch-module/

Note that it states that standard public matches will be the "default gameplay path" in the CW launch module.

Edited by anubis969, 13 February 2014 - 02:41 PM.

[Belorion]

anubis969, on 13 February 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Your assuming that CW matches will be separate from standard public matches. PGI's latest communications regarding CW that I have seen do not support such an assumption. For example:
http://mwomercs.com/...-launch-module/

Note that it states that standard public matches will be the "default gameplay path" in the CW launch module.

There is nothing in that post or the subsequent posts that suggest that CW matches will not be separate from pug matches, and in the past they have very clearly talked about CW matches being different than PUG matches.

Basically what are 12 mans now will be CW of the future, and the PUG matches will continue being PUG matches.

[anubis969]

Belorion, on 13 February 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

There is nothing in that post or the subsequent posts that suggest that CW matches will not be separate from pug matches, and in the past they have very clearly talked about CW matches being different than PUG matches.

Basically what are 12 mans now will be CW of the future, and the PUG matches will continue being PUG matches.

Actually there is information in those posts that more than suggests that CW matches will not be separate but nevermind .

Here is another example where PGI not only states that PUGs will be part of CW but explicitly stated in regards to public matches that they will be allowing "every single match to affect the universe":

http://www.twitch.tv...16210?t=308m05s

Edited by anubis969, 14 February 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[Roland]

Belorion, on 13 February 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

They need to make this explicitly clear. Will we or will we not be able to drop in mixed units with clan and IS mechs?

Based on what Bryan said most recently, the answer is no.. because, if you could, then having 12v10 makes no sense.

But previously, while trying to get IS players to buy clan tech, they suggested IS players would be able to salvage clan tech from a roleplaying perspective, and use clan tech while being an IS player.

The real answer is this:
PGI Has absolutely no idea how any of this crap will work, and they just want you to give them money.

[Cimarb]

anubis969, on 13 February 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

According to the Omnimech Rules and Construction post from last week mix tech will not be allowed. Nice thinking but there will be no clan tech on IS 'mechs I'm afraid. "Salvaged" clan 'mechs piloted by IS pilots however is another matter (see above).

Source:
http://mwomercs.com/...d-construction/

I didn't mean mix tech, and obviously completely missed the point I was trying to make.

You have a certain "level" of technology. When you implement a different "level" of technology and balance them, you can do so by effectively nerfing the better tech, or buffing the lesser tech. In this case, they have IS tech (lesser) and Clan tech (better). You can either nerf Clan tech, or buff IS tech, but the net result is the same: equal tech.

When the Clans were implemented in TT, the IS tech had to be buffed over time to become balanced. What PGI may be doing is the same thing, where they are moving us forward in the timeline to when IS tech has caught up and become equal through salvage. The tech doesn't have to actually "improve" over what we currently have to achieve that. They have simply raised the bar and there is no net change to IS weapons as they are the new standard.

I'm probably still not describing it well...

Regardless, I think that Thomas' comments about Tukayyid lend itself to this theory.