38 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Feature Suggestion: Ghost Cone of Fire

Function: Reduce the occurrence/intensity of long-range pinpoint damage derived from Boating large numbers of identical weapons.


Suggested Execution:

• Firing too many of a weapon within a window of time causes the player to experience an exponentially-scaling cone of fire [using the "Jump Jet reticule shake" mechanic]
  
• Firing X PPCs within a 0.5 second window results in pinpoint-accuracy
  
• Firing X+1 PPCs within a 0.5 second window causes the +1th PPC to fire quite inaccurately.
  
• Firing X+2 PPCs within 0.5 seconds causes the +1th PPC to veer significantly off target, and the +2nd PPC would veer waaaaaay off target.
  
• Firing too many Lasers within the 0.5 second window would cause laser beams to start poking out in every which-way, resulting in diffused damage-application.
  
• Firing too many SRMs within 0.5 seconds would send successive volleys off-course.
  
• Firing too many LRMs within 0.5 Seconds would... um... I don't know if there is an in-game Mechanic for PGI to utilize in order to make missile flight patterns more spread out on-the-fly because this isn't covered by the JJ reticule shake mechanic... Same with Streak SRMs...

So, yeah, other than LRMs and StreakSRMs, I suggest that we try a Ghost Cone-of-Fire Mechanism to replace Ghost Heat since PGI has already programmed a reticule inaccuracy function that can be utilized.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 February 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

As long as this isn't going to COMPLETELY up-end the pecking order and have all kinds of unanticipated effects on weapons that weren't intended to be affected, I'm fine with this.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Rebas Kradd, on 19 February 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

As long as this isn't going to COMPLETELY up-end the pecking order and have all kinds of unanticipated effects on weapons that weren't intended to be affected, I'm fine with this.

People will always try to stack weapons with similar projectile velocities, so PGI would have to make sure that there are no significant overlaps that would be exploited (like the current PPC + AC/5 situation)

[Roadbeer]

Not sure if trolling or serious.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Roadbeer, on 19 February 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Not sure if trolling or serious.

Why not?

The problem is pinpoint accuracy and convergence, right? Or, do you think that the accuracy of weapons are right where they should be?

My idea is basically like synthetic recoil.

[Roadbeer]

I don't actually see it as a problem. Technologically, we have that licked in the real world now.

I'm of the school that 80% of the balance issues could be resolved with a return of rearming mechs. You wouldn't see the recockulous amounts of ammo being carried, if their holding down the fire button had financial repercussions after the match.

The remainder I think could be resolved by going back to the convergence that we had back in CB, and making heat sinks a bit more fragile.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Quote

I don't actually see it as a problem. Technologically, we have that licked in the real world now.

Please allow me to quote you on that:

"Roadbeer thinks that weapons accuracy is fine now."

Quote

I'm of the school that 80% of the balance issues could be resolved with a return of rearming mechs. You wouldn't see the recockulous amounts of ammo being carried, if their holding down the fire button had financial repercussions after the match.

So, you think that people who use Cash to buy Premium Time should have more ready access to ballistics and high-tech equipment? That's what some people would call Pay-to-Win.

Quote

The remainder I think could be resolved by going back to the convergence that we had back in CB...

The developers informed us that Weapon Convergence would require use of the Host-State-Rewind system to determine if you were actually aiming at the enemy or not. Back in CB there was no HSR, but now weapons convergence would be CONSTANTLY engaging the HSR system to perform network checks (to see if your weapons should really be converging or not), and that would generate huge quantities of network traffic. It's networkly unfeasible.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 February 2014 - 06:16 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Prosperity Park, on 19 February 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

please allow me to quote you on that:

"Roadbeer thinks that weapons accuracy is fine now."

Sure, if you quote me correctly, "Roadbeer doesn't have a problem with pinpoint accuracy, and believes that if an M1A1 Abrams traveling at 40MPH can hit a moving target in 2000, then it stands to reason that 1050 years in the future, weapon systems would be even more accurate"

Prosperity Park, on 19 February 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

So, you think that people who use Cash to buy Premium Time should have more ready access to ballistics and high-tech equipment? That's what some people would call Pay-to-Win.

Some people consider the Arty/Air strike P2W already, you're not going to change their minds. Some people thought that the Founders having premium time at the beginning and were able to buy Atali were P2W. it's not like you're buying golden ammo, you're penalized for expending ammo. have that deducted prior to premium bonuses being applied.

Prosperity Park, on 19 February 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

The developers informed us that Weapon Convergence would require use of the Host-State-Rewind system to determine if you were actually aiming at the enemy or not. Back in CB there was no HSR, but now weapons convergence would be CONSTANTLY engaging the HSR system to perform network checks (to see if your weapons should really be converging or not), and that would generate huge quantities of network traffic. It networkly unfeasible.

Fair enough, didn't think that through.

As bad as Ghost Heat is, I feel that Ghost CoF would be worse.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Quote

Sure, if you quote me correctly, "Roadbeer doesn't have a problem with pinpoint accuracy, and believes that if an M1A1 Abrams traveling at 40MPH can hit a moving target in 2000, then it stands to reason that 1050 years in the future, weapon systems would be even more accurate"

We're talking about firing 3 or more 120mm slugs within 0.5 seconds... modern tanks only do it once every 3 or 4 seconds. Of course they can stabalize that quickly nowadays... but this thread is for firing 3 or more within half-a-second.

Quote

As bad as Ghost Heat is, I feel that Ghost CoF would be worse.

Ghost Heat causes Mech shutdown and reduced over-all rates of fire in the face of boating massed identical weapons, whereas Ghost Cone of Fire would only cause damage spread in the face of boating.

Current situation - Press the "\" button to pinpoint alpha strike your foe, dealing ## points of damage to a single point-of-aim resulting in you shutting down and them suffering massive, grievous injury.

My Suggestion - Press the "/" button to alpha strike, and only a few of your shots are pinpoint accurate, thus spreading the ## damage across the target (like a burst-of-fire naturally does).

[Roland]

I'm going to suggest something really crazy here:

Don't do ghost anything. Making stupidly opaque game mechanics is bad design. It leads to bad gameplay. It makes new players hate it.

If you want to limit the number of weapons a player can simultaneously fire, THEN JUST DO IT.

You don't want to let someone fire more than 2 PPC's? Then don't let them fire more than two PPC's. Limit weapon grouping, and limit the ability to simultaneously fire multiple weapon groups.

Stop making a bunch of stupid junk that dances around what you are trying to do, and just do it straight up. Then the rules are clear to players, which is better... It'll also make it less likely that folks will just work around your indirect nonsense, which is exactly what the playerbase has continually done in response to ghost heat and various weapon nerfs.

[cSand]

You know, people have made jokes in the past about nerfing skill, but I've never actually seen it presented seriously. And here it is, in writing You should get a medal or something

Edited by cSand, 19 February 2014 - 09:42 PM.

[Coralld]

Interesting idea but here is my take on the whole pinpoint issue.

The problem, as pointed out by the OP, is front loaded high Alpha meta. Lasers and missiles are fine the way they work now (Other then missiles which most of their problems are linked to hit detection). So I say make ACs burst fire weapons as they are described in lore. Now I am not talking like a stream of shells that do 1 damage per shell but rather 2 shot burst where the full damage is split between 2 shells. So when a AC10 fires, one shell does 5 damage while the second shell does the other 5. We have a similar mechanic already in game with the UAC5. This would help Lights and Mediums and indirectly buff Gauss as then it would be the only ballistic weapon that's fully front loaded, where as ACs would be semi-front loaded.
Now for PPCs. Make it so that PPCs can only be alpha fired with them selves and you must wait .5 sec before you can fire other weapons, and inversely, PPCs must wait .5 sec before they can be fired after other weapons. This would break up the high alpha meta and prevent people from simply rolling their fingers over their mouse to simulate an alpha.

Not saying my idea is the best or perfect, just my 2 c-bills.

Edited by Coralld, 19 February 2014 - 10:22 PM.

[Moromillas]

Hey, I have a better idea.

How about, if they fire lots of weapons, their Mech instantly explodes in a massive fiery inferno, dealing splash damage to friendly Mechs within 200m. That'll teach the ********.

Edited by Moromillas, 20 February 2014 - 03:38 AM.

[Coralld]

Gryphorim, on 19 February 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

If something like reticule shake were implimented to those weapons with high recoil, by making weapon groups with high recoil weapons off-set fire by 0.1 of a second max, and aforementioned shake for a split second, (limiting to really bad offenders), then this is an idea I can get behind. It's somewhat lore-friendly (as it spreads damage just enough, and fits with battlemechs using crappier electronics than today's modern fighting equipment.) Would not need to be applied to lasers, as those already have a mechanic to spread damage. As for missiles, could we maybe see LRM's accelerate as they fly (so they work better at the outer edge of their range) and have a very slight variance in their acceleration, so they are a little spread out when they arrive at target. Ditto SRMs but I wanna see these get lock-on and a REALLY wide turning arc, so even if locked on, your target would need to be moving right at you or away from you, or you'd need to lead.

My biggest concern is about laser weapons with the OPs idea, but if they remain like they are now as they are hit scan weapons and thus already spread damage all over the place then its something I may consider. As for SRMs being homing, no, SRMs are direct fire weapons.

[Gryphorim]

Coralld, on 19 February 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

As for SRMs being homing, no, SRMs are direct fire weapons.

Direct fire doesn't mean unguided, it just means they are not capable of striking a target that they have no LOS to.
Given that SRMs do not suffer a penalty for their "to-hit" rolls in TT, but weapons specifically stated to be unguided missiles (MRMs and Rocket Launchers) do, I'd wager that SRMs were intended to use some form of basic guidance. Streaks are merely stated to have superior guidance hardware.

Edit: Deleted my post, made it into it's own thread.

Edited by Gryphorim, 19 February 2014 - 10:52 PM.

[Coralld]

Gryphorim, on 19 February 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

Direct fire doesn't mean unguided, it just means they are not capable of striking a target that they have no LOS to.
Given that SRMs do not suffer a penalty for their "to-hit" rolls in TT, but weapons specifically stated to be unguided missiles (MRMs and Rocket Launchers) do, I'd wager that SRMs were intended to use some form of basic guidance. Streaks are merely stated to have superior guidance hardware.

The whole thing with missiles is strange, because even though SRMs and LRMs are mentioned to being "Guided" but in LRMs case they need TAG, NARC, or Artemis in order to change direction in mid flight to increase their effectiveness and get missile lock. SRMs don't get any perks from TAG or NARC, only Artemis, but when ECM comes into play it counters Artemis sense ECM counters guidance systems but you are still able to roll for hit locations.
SRMs, you roll a separate hit location for each missile that hit (2 damage each). For LRMs, you group the damage into 5-point clusters and roll a hit location for each cluster. Also, ALL missile damage is grouped, just the size of the group differs!
SRM = Group size 1
MRM = Group size 5
LRM = Group size 5
ATM = Group size ?(i think its 5 too...)
ELRM= Group size 5

Edited by Coralld, 19 February 2014 - 11:33 PM.

[Gryphorim]

In the rulebook I've got, SRMs definitely DO get a bonus from NARC, and TAG only worked for Semi-Active LRMs, which I envisioned as being dumb-fired over the target area, and self-guiding to a TAGGED target. Both did indeed get the +2 from Artemis. WRT ECM, LRMs and SRMs just revert to their own internal guidance, they don't suffer the -1 to hit that the unguided systems do, they just lose the enhanced guidance assistance. Of course, they may have retconned that info, I have no idea how up to date my copy is, (I'm borrowing a mate's copy.)

[Coralld]

Gryphorim, on 19 February 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

In the rulebook I've got, SRMs definitely DO get a bonus from NARC, and TAG only worked for Semi-Active LRMs, which I envisioned as being dumb-fired over the target area, and self-guiding to a TAGGED target. Both did indeed get the +2 from Artemis. WRT ECM, LRMs and SRMs just revert to their own internal guidance, they don't suffer the -1 to hit that the unguided systems do, they just lose the enhanced guidance assistance. Of course, they may have retconned that info, I have no idea how up to date my copy is, (I'm borrowing a mate's copy.)

Hmmm, good point. Forgot SRMs do get bonus from TAG and NARC. That's what I get for going off the top of my head.

So the best way for them to mimic this is if they go by your description of your suggestion but their tracking would have to suck though, sure TAG, NARC and Artemis would help but no where near to the degree of Streaks. And while we are on the topic of missiles, make it so that when under ECM, Streaks behave like regular SRMs as that's what happens.

[Bagheera]

Not a fan of it being a ghost based setup, but that is probably preferable to random and definitely preferable to something based on speed. Because mediums do not need yet another nerf: no speed based cone of fire plz.

[Moromillas]

Ghost heat is not the problem. The problem is WHEN a penalty is applied. Swapping out one mechanic for another won't help. If you swapped out ghost heat for another mechanic, you'd just have the same problem with another mechanic.

Perhaps a more stringent set of rules for when a penalty is applied.