67 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

But thats better than never.

[Void Angel]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 April 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

It never was. You always had to put a big XL engine in it to feel the difference. Now a big XL just helps you run fast, but you still torso twist like a pig. With identical weapons loadouts, my CTF-3D, runs faster, jumps faster, and feels WAY more maneuverable.

Modo44, on 07 April 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Thus making the dev's point. The Victor was never supposed to be a heavy with assault armor. Now it is not anymore. Problem solved.

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

? No I'm talking about pre-Victor nerf. Are you being thick intentionally?

Reading comprehension for the win!

Gas Guzzler, on 07 April 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

Now a big XL just helps you run fast, but you still torso twist like a pig. With identical weapons loadouts, my CTF-3D, runs faster, jumps faster, and feels WAY more maneuverable. [emphasis added; note the present tense]

Modo44, on 07 April 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

The Victor was never supposed to be a heavy with assault armor. Now it is not anymore. [again, note the present tense]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

? No I'm talking about pre-Victor nerf. Are you being thick intentionally?[irony not mine]

Blind disagreement for the loss.

But you're not alone - I see people claiming that the changes were somehow aimed at jump sniping, and then going on to "prove" how this makes the changes nonsensical and wrong. The problem with this argument is that it's a total fantasy based on a lie: PGI didn't nerf the Victor's agility because it was too good a jump sniper, they did it because it was too agile - and they said so! Is the nerf too much? Maybe - others have put forth arguments to that effect, and frankly... going to a negative 20% from what I think was a positive modifier seemed extreme to me as soon as it hit the patch notes. So I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with the general position - but let's try to make our arguments rationally sound.

Edited by Void Angel, 09 April 2014 - 12:34 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Yes we listened to him in the video. Problems are jump sniping AND agility of Victor. So the Victor was hit twice because of the nurf to jump jets also. I think his biggest problem is seeing mechs by class and not by weight. A Victor is much closer to a heavy than it is an Atlas.

[A Man In A Can]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

The problem is that its an 80 ton mech that torso twists like an Atlas. If you can't recognize that then there's no point in discussing it further.

I still see no issue and don't support your cause. Even with the twist speed of an Atlas, the Victor can do things the Atlas can't and is still a mobile assault compared to the Highlander. Plus, the fact that the change gave the Awesome a big indirect buff is a huge boon for the chassis. It's now actually significantly good at something compared to the other assaults. That's pretty impressive coming from targeted nerfs to two chassis. It just shows how far out of line those chassis really were compared to the rest of the assaults.

So no the Victor doesn't need a rollback of the changes. It just needs to be played differently now.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Can we just agree it would be fair to bring the Victor up to -10% instead of -20%? Isn't that enough? Just so it twists faster than an HGN?

Making Assaults more sluggish makes lights way too hard to track. Let's avoid that. And yeah they could at least give the Awesome better hitboxes, I don't know why they haven't addressed that if its such a problem. I am now on a vendetta to prove that the 9M is viable with a big XL and 3 PPCs.

In any case, Russ tweeted that they would not be assessing Victor balance until after the 3/3/3/3 Launch Module patch of April 29th so we won't be seeing any changes.

I don't really agree with this. (Not really aimed at you Gas, just the concept in general )

The way that pitch/yaw/turn/etc are based on engine and tonnage, its a poor design to single out 2 mechs to be singled out and be nerfed. With the Victor losing agility as one of the lightest assaults in the game, and with typically much fewer hardpoints.



You give up something for that speed and agility, you are running an XL on a high priority target.


I'll wait til the 29th then, and hope the devs re-evaluate this.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 08 April 2014 - 07:27 PM.

[Modo44]

Void Angel, on 08 April 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

Reading comprehension for the win!

I read the data. The data looks bad on paper. However, the Victor remains solid in actual matches, having the best speed and weapons situation of all assaults. I will not argue with people who do not play it, but prefer to call the numbers bad based on a spreadsheet. Yes, I do own other assaults, and they are still absolute barns compared to the Victor. Quit whining, learn to play.

Edited by Modo44, 09 April 2014 - 01:49 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

I have oh 3000 matches of so in Victors. And they did go over board on the nurfing.

[Shiro Matsumoto]

Modo44, on 08 April 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

I read the data. The data looks bad on paper. However, the Victor reminds solid in actual matches, having the best speed and weapons situation of all assaults. I will not argue with people who do not play it, but prefer to call the numbers bad based on a spreadsheet. Yes, I do own other assaults, and they are still absolute barns compared to the Victor. Quit whining, learn to play.

This totally helped the discussion.

Is "they feel fine still" the only thing you can offer to this? You seem to not have piloted lot of Victors prior to the nerf, didnt you? Its a bit wrong if a Mech MADE for agility, and eshewing a heavier weapon load for agility torsotwists the same as a Mech 20 tons heavier, eh?

XX Sulla XX, on 08 April 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

I have oh 3000 matches of so in Victors. And they did go over board on the nurfing.

Yeah im stil debating with myself to scrap all Victors but the Dragonslayer (as it was expensive) and leave the chassis picked clean, named "Nerfed to death", in a Hangar bay i case they ever un-nerf it.

Edited by John McFianna, 08 April 2014 - 11:30 PM.

[Void Angel]

XX Sulla XX, on 08 April 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

Yes we listened to him in the video. Problems are jump sniping AND agility of Victor. So the Victor was hit twice because of the nurf to jump jets also. I think his biggest problem is seeing mechs by class and not by weight. A Victor is much closer to a heavy than it is an Atlas.

The jump jet nerf primarily hit people who were not using the full amount of jets - though my Highlander feels a little too slow on the jump now. This thread, however, is about the twist and turn rates of the Victor, not it's jump agility. Now, I'm not disputing that jump agility is a valid point for discussion - but I saw, for example, some goombah actually rant on about how the changes were "about poptarts" and complaining that the twist/turn nerf was silly because it didn't address jump sniping at all. That was flat-out crazy: of course the nerf aimed at a separate aspect of gameplay didn't affect jump sniping! That doesn't mean that the nerf wasn't needed to address that separate aspect. That's like saying, "putting healthier food in my lunch is silly, because my lunch still weighs the same!" It's to that kind of logic that I am objecting.

I don't have a dog in this fight, not owning a Victor yet. But if there's a real issue here, I'd like PGI to get useful, reasonable feedback. If you inadvertently misrepresent their statements, it's less likely that they'll listen to you as closely.

As far as viewing 'mechs by weight, that only works if we get weight tonnage matching - as long as 'mechs are matched and sorted by weight class, as planned by the matchmaker, a Victor is taking up an Assault slot and must be evaluated as an Assault. Of course, that's also another thread.

[BoldricKent]

To add my 2 cents of thought.
Because of this thread i started to experiment with my Victors and found out that below 320 mech becomes
moving barn, on 300 its dead dodo, i even try out 275std, wont comment that.Chassis have all elite/master perk.
Since agility comes with engine size, most of them uses XL engine, with recent twist nerf, durability of such design
is a bit of kamikaze style.
Case in point, i droped 3 Victors, two nights ago with SHD 2D2 4SSRM,2MPL. ! was pristine, 1 had side torso damaged,last one had damage spread all over, what is more important, i got hit just 4 times during those fights, only with lasers, no
ac srms ever touched me.And this is SHD made for light hunting, not assault brawling.. i was glad as much as i was sad. I aint great pilot, but those guys didnt have a chance, even in fairly solo duals.
I own only ShadowHawks and Victors... and whatever chassis might be next, it will have JJ mounted.

[Modo44]

BoldricKent, on 09 April 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

Case in point, i droped 3 Victors, two nights ago with SHD 2D2 4SSRM,2MPL. ! was pristine, 1 had side torso damaged,last one had damage spread all over, what is more important, i got hit just 4 times during those fights, only with lasers, no
ac srms ever touched me.

Yes, you met new players in their trial mechs, or bad PUGgers who have no idea what to do with the meta. Congrats. Now, go see Wispsy or Jager in a Gauss+2xPPC setup.

[BoldricKent]

Nope, none was trail 9S, they had gauss,ultra5, ac20...non was DS,since only SRM run out of torso and i
do play just PUG. But thats hardly a point, on close range they could track me, even with arms, and there are
plenty faster mech then my around.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Of course it didn't phase the top end of the bracket, Builds like these are still just as powerful as ever.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...911790f1fec40db
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8323a2d89860e58
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...515b1f40bbad7b9

But if or when PPC/AC ever gets the balance that the community is seeking, you guys that only play these mechs to poptart will just end up dropping them and moving on to something like the CTF-3D which can still poptart.. maybe.

And farther down that road, all the brawlers or users with balls enough to build a VTR with a standard engine will be left with a 80 ton piece of garbage that can't turn, and which has less armor to stand with other assaults.

Why don't you guys pull up your skirts, and drop a VTR with AC-10/20 and 2 ERLL, see how far that gets you, I dare you.
No? didn't think so, because you know it sucked as a brawler before the change, and now.. even worse.

This is beating a dead horse, the change will be felt down the road.

Edited by Mister D, 10 April 2014 - 05:14 AM.

[Void Angel]

Modo44, on 08 April 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

I read the data. The data looks bad on paper. However, the Victor remains solid in actual matches, having the best speed and weapons situation of all assaults. I will not argue with people who do not play it, but prefer to call the numbers bad based on a spreadsheet. Yes, I do own other assaults, and they are still absolute barns compared to the Victor. Quit whining, learn to play.

I weep for the future of America. Go back and re-read that post.

[Gas Guzzler]

Modo44, on 08 April 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

I read the data. The data looks bad on paper. However, the Victor remains solid in actual matches, having the best speed and weapons situation of all assaults. I will not argue with people who do not play it, but prefer to call the numbers bad based on a spreadsheet. Yes, I do own other assaults, and they are still absolute barns compared to the Victor. Quit whining, learn to play.

Victor is great at jump sniping. I just had an amazing game in my Dragon Slayer last night. I know how to play and am confident I can crap on your face any day of the week (sober). That doesn't make arbitrary chassis nerfs like this justified. All you have here is subjectivity. Other Assaults feel like absolute barns? My Highlanders and Atlases FEEL just about as twisty, the 733C is more so. But we can argue how things feel all day, it won't go anywhere.

Void angel, yeah I think a screwed up my tense there. I meant that pre-nerf, the 3D was more agile then the Victor. Now there is no comparison. Sorry for the confusion.

But hey if you want to jump snipe in a Victor all day long its great at that. I just think it needs to feel a little more twisty when you have such a big engine in there, so the Victor can have a role other than jump sniping. I only have one of mine setup for it, and would like the other two to be viable again (one of them has an AC20 and 2 ERLLs like someone mentioned earlier). It struggles.

[Ultimax]

Void Angel, on 09 April 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

The jump jet nerf primarily hit people who were not using the full amount of jets - though my Highlander feels a little too slow on the jump now. This thread, however, is about the twist and turn rates of the Victor, not it's jump agility. Now, I'm not disputing that jump agility is a valid point for discussion - but I saw, for example, some goombah actually rant on about how the changes were "about poptarts" and complaining that the twist/turn nerf was silly because it didn't address jump sniping at all. That was flat-out crazy: of course the nerf aimed at a separate aspect of gameplay didn't affect jump sniping!

Actually, part of the torso twisting and how it affects jump sniping was specifically mentioned by Paul in the video.

The problem was jump > fire > twist.


That's why the Highlander also had its twisting speed nerfed, and most likely also affected the Victor.

Other than that, Paul simply said the Victor felt "really agile" with zero other specific details and in games like this the balance is in the details.

What engine? Compared to what other mechs? For sniping or in a brawl trying to get a bead on a light or even some fast mediums?

Void Angel, on 09 April 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

Victor is taking up an Assault slot and must be evaluated as an Assault. Of course, that's also another thread.

When we can only have 3 assaults on a team in the PUG queue, do you want one that is basically an oversized heavy with less armor, less firepower than other assaults if the only thing it brings to the table is "it can run fast if it takes a huge XL engine"?


XL Engine
Less Armor
Less Twisting
Lower firepower (compared to other Assaults)





Unfortunately I think they just caved in to the forums - while not actually addressing what the forums were actually upset about, Paul even mentions as much in the video.

They should have implemented 3/3/3/3 first, and then took a long hard look at what might need to be tweaked. Not nerf-hammer something and then maybe or maybe not look at it again.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 April 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

The jump jet nerf primarily hit people who were not using the full amount of jets

Nope it was a massive nerf to full jump jet mechs as well. THere are to main parts to this. Number 1 is much reduced turn speed while in the air. I believe they nurfed it by 30%. So now with the same engine as before when you are turning and jump your turn rate drasticly slows and you hang in the air like a giant pinata. Number 2 is the much slower recharge time. Before this I could jump for each shot at me to spread damage and make them miss. Now for a lot of the time the jump jet will not be charged so you will be on the ground or can only barely hop. These two changes alone made a huge difference to the mech. And I know this as they came out before the turn rate.

Quote

This thread, however, is about the twist and turn rates of the Victor, not it's jump agility. Now, I'm not disputing that jump agility is a valid point for discussion - but I saw, for example, some goombah actually rant on about how the changes were "about poptarts" and complaining that the twist/turn nerf was silly because it didn't address jump sniping at all. That was flat-out crazy: of course the nerf aimed at a separate aspect of gameplay didn't affect jump sniping! That doesn't mean that the nerf wasn't needed to address that separate aspect. That's like saying, "putting healthier food in my lunch is silly, because my lunch still weighs the same!" It's to that kind of logic that I am objecting.

I have to disagree. They did not say the maneuverability problem was about brawling alone or even the main reason. Remember one problem with jump snipers is they were still very good at brawling in close because of the maneuverability. So you had Victors that were great at jump sniping and great at brawling. Also the turn rate helps you while in the air jump sniping as you can take your shot and then turn your torso to spread damage. Something he exactly mentioned but did not say if it was in regard to brawling or while in the air or both. Any way best I can tell they were looking at brawling and jump sniping on victors together not as two seperate issues.

Quote

As far as viewing 'mechs by weight, that only works if we get weight tonnage matching - as long as 'mechs are matched and sorted by weight class, as planned by the matchmaker, a Victor is taking up an Assault slot and must be evaluated as an Assault. Of course, that's also another thread.

From their statements we are getting weight matching it jsut a question of exactly when. But even then a Victor is already giving up 20 tons to an Atlas and runs an XL. I think it would be a fair tradeoff

Also Void you need to log on have not seen you in game for a while. Drop by we will play some matches

[Void Angel]

=) I've been busy trying to fix my sewer line - I'm actually just taking a break now before going back to it. I need to cut back some brush and break open concrete to save some money on the plumber. If any of you are ever building a house, and someone tries to talk you into having lots of trees and bushes, especially fruit and/or nut trees - especially right next to your sewer line... You slap that person, right in the face, and then ask them why they hate you so much.

As for jump snipers, I do see what you guys mean: the video specifically mentions the Highlander, not the Victor, so I missed that point. However, since they're trying to make Assaults' overall agility more distinct from that of the Heavies, it's not reasonable to characterize the twist/turn nerf as being only about jump sniping, then harp on it as being incomprehensible and ineffective.

[Gas Guzzler]

Void Angel, on 09 April 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

=) I've been busy trying to fix my sewer line - I'm actually just taking a break now before going back to it. I need to cut back some brush and break open concrete to save some money on the plumber. If any of you are ever building a house, and someone tries to talk you into having lots of trees and bushes, especially fruit and/or nut trees - especially right next to your sewer line... You slap that person, right in the face, and then ask them why they hate you so much.

As for jump snipers, I do see what you guys mean: the video specifically mentions the Highlander, not the Victor, so I missed that point. However, since they're trying to make Assaults' overall agility more distinct from that of the Heavies, it's not reasonable to characterize the twist/turn nerf as being only about jump sniping, then harp on it as being incomprehensible and ineffective.

Bring it up to -10% and I'll be happy. Puts it inline with with the only other assault with JJs (Highlander) and gives the Awesome a distinct twist speed advantage (per given engine size). Honestly Assaults are most certainly not as agile as heavies. If you put a small engine in the heavy, sure it will be sluggish. An 80 ton mech with an XL380 should be more agile then a 75 ton mech with a XL 280, in my opinion.

[Void Angel]

Sure; but their position was that the Victor was too maneuverable for its tonnage/weight class - and having fought them, I find that reasonable. Going from a positive modifier to a large negative modifier seems extreme, but they may be thinking that it'll be preferable from a PR standpoint to err on the side of nerf-dom and re-buff the 'mech than to need to nerf it twice if they're too conservative.