23 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

For anything like Ghost Heat to be fair, which still IMO needs to be removed, but if the devs are looking for sane alternatives it would need to apply across all weapons, not just tied to individual weapons and static amounts of those weapons. It also needs to allow certain chassis to do more based on their quirks. It should also be feasible as an in-universe system.


My proposal would be that each weapon has an "energy value", and you have an "energy limiter" of an amount appropriate to that chassis. Its only when you go over that limit that you incur a linear % penalty of heat. This represents the amount of "overdrive" your fusion engine requires to fire additional weapons over a period of time and as a result extra heat is generated when going into overdrive. That limit has a linear energy dissipation over time also. This energy limiter could be represented as a bar graph of a slightly different color (purple?) directly next to the red heat bar.


Examples:

1. An Awesome has an "energy limiter" capacity of 30. This value linearly decreases (from 30) to 0 in 5(?) seconds.
- PPCs require 10 energy (this value may not necessarily be 1:1 with heat, for instance Gauss rifle maybe should be possibly 20 energy)
- Therefore, an Awesome can alpha strike 3xPPCs every 5 seconds without incurring heat penalty.
- But, if the Awesome fires its 3xPPCs at 4 seconds again after firing its first alpha (its "energy limiter" would have only decreased down to 6) which would hit the limiter of 30 with 6 extra leftover. That extra 6 energy would incur a penalty of 6 heat for that alpha.
- The "energy limiter" itself never actually goes above the chassis limiter value of 30, its just that when it hits 30 any extra energy over that gets applied as extra heat in that overage amount.
- If the Awesome starts at 0 energy and alpha strikes 3xMedium Lasers (for example, requires 3 energy) at the same time as 3xPPC, this would result in an extra 9 heat since it was 3x3 over the 30 limiter.

2. A Hunchback has an "energy limiter" capacity of 25. This value also linearly decreases (from 25) to 0 in 5 seconds.
- A Gauss rifle requires 20 energy.
- The Hunchback can alpha a Gauss and one Medium Laser with no penalty (20 + 3)
- If the Hunchback alpha strikes a Gauss and 3xMedium Lasers (20 + 9), then its limiter hits its max value of 25 and incurs 4 penalty heat.
- After 5 seconds its energy limiter is back to 0.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 23 April 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[Mechteric]

Alternatively as someone pointed out in another thread, the limiter could be based on the engine size. The most clearly obvious way to do this would be to set the "energy limiter" capacity to the engine rating number (and adjust the weapon energy usage appropriately).

So in the above example #1, an Awesome with a STD (or XL) 300 rated engine would have a 300 capacity, PPCs could use 100 energy (instead of 10), and Medium Lasers at 30 (instead of 3). This would yield the same results as the above examples, just based on engine instead of chassis.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 23 April 2014 - 06:18 AM.

[McValium]

The only way to get rid of Boating and Ghost Heat is removing customization, all other options just lead back to a waste of time for reprogramming or the return of boating.

Ghost Heat is working fine, and it does not need to be changed because people cant read a damn Spreadsheet/ Info page for Stacking Weapons

6ppc Stalkers never forgive - never forget.

[-Halcyon-]

Why don't they just increase the armor to counter rapid alpha strike damage?

[Mechteric]

Halcyon201, on 23 April 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Why don't they just increase the armor to counter rapid alpha strike damage?

That would solve nothing, if anything it would make high alpha mechs even more required because anything less would be a peashooter.

McValium, on 23 April 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

The only way to get rid of Boating and Ghost Heat is removing customization, all other options just lead back to a waste of time for reprogramming or the return of boating.

Ghost Heat is working fine, and it does not need to be changed because people cant read a damn Spreadsheet/ Info page for Stacking Weapons

6ppc Stalkers never forgive - never forget.

Its not working fine, its confusing to new players, it limits our imagination, causes stale meta configs, and kills kittens. The 6 ppc stalker wouldn't work even without Ghost Heat because 60 heat would send a Stalker immediately over 100% and it would be half dead before coming out of shutdown due to internal damage.

If you read what I wrote, a 6 PPC stalker would still generate extra heat on alpha since its max engine rating is 310.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 23 April 2014 - 06:33 AM.

[McValium]

Because two seperate heat/energy bars will not be confusing at all^^, sorry but Devs will not invest a lot of programming time into a System that is basicly the Same fix, They have better stuff to do ^^

If new players are overwhelmed by the current Ghostheatsystem , read the manual, aka new player forums/anouncments

Stale meta configurations are caused by Player min maxing, no programming investment on the Dev Part will change that, 10+years of eve online have shown that more than enough, the majority of Players always switches to the Next overpowered thing.

Edited by McValium, 23 April 2014 - 06:41 AM.

[CMetz]

For all the complaining that happens about ghost heat I don't think we'll ever see a change. The reason is that it accomplished exactly what it set out to do. It doesn't put a cap on anyone's imagination. It forces creative thinking and the usage of different weapons systems. Some people still run 4 LL builds but it requires more skill to use them now because they can't pinpoint alpha all of them at once. It has a decent amount of tabletop flavor to it, because boats in tabletop required staggered fire. No one walked around with an Awesome firing 3 PPC's each turn. It was an idiotic tactic if you did. Not even everyone's vaunted Marauders and Warhammers could fire like that. MAD's fired 2 PPC and then 1 PPC, 1 AC5 on alternating turns (if the player is intelligent) and WHM's had to fire 2PPC, 1 PPC on alternating turns to keep from movement penalties. We do not have movement penalties here because it would lead to a MUCH shorter TTK and it would be a much less perfect solution in a sim-shooter. Do you really want to fire 3 PPC's on a Stalker or Awesome just to have your movement reduced to 30 kph? You're dead if that happens. Is ghost heat a perfect mechanic? Not at all, but its a LOT better than many of the alternatives. I mean in this topic we're talking about mechanics that require paragraph on top of paragraph to explain... is this really better than a simple chart that shows heat penalties? Not at all. Its more convoluted and even more difficult for new players. Personally, none of my builds have ghost heat triggering loadouts. I clearly can't speak for my ELO since that is hidden and no one knows what theirs is, but my KDR is well above average, so you can definitely have success in this game with balanced builds.

[Mechteric]

From another thread:

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 22 April 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

I'm curious as to whether players feel the warnings in the MechLab regarding simultaneous fire has helped at all in belaying some of the concerns regarding newer players not understanding it?

Otherwise, what other ways do you think we can better help players understand this system within the game context?

My idea is a change in how the heat system works to a way that makes it easier for players to understand within the game context while keeping some of the spirit of what it is trying to achieve. It is my logical belief that the current ghost heat system cannot be easily understood other than looking at a spreadsheet which is not a good gaming system (unless you just really like spreadsheets), and does not really have an appropriate means to relay this in game when you're sitting in the cockpit of your mech.

[McValium]

If people run into problems reading a manual (In this case a Spreadsheet) no amount of work can help them solve their lives.
Fixing one problem by introducing another problem is no longer a viable fix, PGI/IGP did a Quick and Dirty fix that is doing its job.

The next Fix needs to be perfect and doable in a short amount of dev Programming time, otherwise its not a financial feasable option. Devs have said over the Last couple of weeks/month that their main focus is on the fly improvment of Ui2.0, and working towards Community Warfare, nothing will change that.

[El Bandito]

I personally believe energy limiter is better option than GH, so there definitely could be room for rework. However, the devs are mostly focused on churning out Clan mechs for cash grab, so they are not really interested in killing Paul's baby.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 April 2014 - 07:19 AM.

[Davers]

Has PGI done such an excellent job balancing heat that we are confident they can invent a whole new layer of complexity?

[CDLord HHGD]

As an alternative, this has merit. I see possibilities of this working as well. One thing to be mindful of though, we cannot negate stock builds. The HBK with a STD200 has to be able to fire it's AC20 without penalty. Simple enough, but this is just an example. And I would say, to fire the AC20, but not also fire the Medium lasers without penalty as this constitutes an alpha strike.

[DONTOR]

Oh good so your proposing yet another nerf to Gauss... great.

[Tezcatli]

Ghost Heat works. It's not going away. Least of all if you're alternative is to create a new system to replace a system that is functioning well enough.

[CDLord HHGD]

Tezcatli, on 23 April 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

Ghost Heat works. It's not going away. Least of all if you're alternative is to create a new system to replace a system that is functioning well enough.

I think you're the first person I have seen on here that has this opinion.... Not saying it's a bad opinion, I too like GH, but wish it was a tad bit different.

[MeiSooHaityu]

McValium, on 23 April 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Because two seperate heat/energy bars will not be confusing at all...

I agree with this statement.

I think the system needs to stay as simple as possible by not adding any additional limiters and stats that dictate how and when a weapon can fire.

Now I do appreciate the OP for his idea and brainstorming, but I just don't feel it would be a good solution. Nice try though.

[Demuder]

Let me get this straight... the OP is suggesting we replace Ghost Heat with one more unintuitive layer and more... Heat ? I know it sounds better on paper, but that's what it boils down to unfortunately.

No matter what we come up with, from Homeless Bill's Targeting Computer to the band-aid Ghost Heat is, nothing will seal the can of worms total customization and instant convergence have opened.

As far as I am concerned, since total customization is very unlikely to be revoked, the only viable solution for a balanced system is removing the ability to link-fire groups and then tampering with the armor and damage values.

Edited by dimstog, 23 April 2014 - 07:53 AM.

[McValium]

cdlord, on 23 April 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

I think you're the first person I have seen on here that has this opinion.... Not saying it's a bad opinion, I too like GH, but wish it was a tad bit different.

Thats because most people who think the current System works dont create Whine threads all day long^^ Forums are for the most part Helpful guys working with new players, and crying of bitter vets that want their overpowered oldschool stuff back.

[CDLord HHGD]

I think we need to have some perspective here over the complexity of MWO. Compared to other MMO/online games and especially Star Citizen, even adding in all these ideas, MWO would come nowhere near the level of complexity I've seen in others....

[McValium]

somehow mwo atleast achieved a playable game^^, and thats without swallowing up 30+millions of fanatic fanboys^^ Star citizen has been the biggest hype/ vaporware since duke forever^^