31 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Long ago, was stated in Ask the Devs 17 that alternate ammo types are planned for eventual implementation.

Quote

Q: Will alternate ammunition like Inferno missiles be available for missile systems and autocannons? [Solis Obscuri]

A: I believe this is the third time I'll have answered this, but yes, there will be alternate ammunition sources at some point, though they'll be later in development. [Garth]

With the recent announcement that the Clan LB-X ACs are intended to receive the ability to switch munition types (source: Paul Inouye on NGNG's "'Mechs, Devs, & Beer #15"; see here and here), there is hope that a similar ability trickle back to the standard (non-Streak) missile launchers of both tech bases, such that LRM & SRM launchers might eventually get access to alternate guidance systems like Heat-Seeking Warheads (implemented as locking onto the hottest target near the aim point if fired without a missile lock), Listen-Kill Missiles (implemented as an anti-radiation missile that locks onto Beagle & ECM carriers near the aim point if fired without a missile lock), and Follow-the-Leader Warheads (implemented as having weaker tracking strength but tighter spread than normal LRMs)... along with alternate damage effects, like AX Warheads (implemented as bonus damage vs FF Armor), Inferno missiles (implemented as adding heat to the target on impact), and Magnetic-Pulse Warheads (implemented as disrupting a target's sensors on impact, producing an ECM-like effect).

Here is a list of alternate missile types, from Sarna.net:

• LRM-only (+MML):
  
  • Follow-the-Leader Warhead (IS: 3049, production stops in 3054)
    
  • Semi-Guided LRM (IS: 3057)
    
  • Standard Long-Range Missiles (IS and Clan: retained from Star League)
    
  • Swarm LRM (Clan: retained from Star League; IS: 3053)
    
  • Swarm-I LRM (IS: 3057)
    
  • Thunder LRM (Clans: retained from Star League; IS: 3052)
• LRM and SRM (+MML):
  
  • Anti-Radiation Missiles (Clan: 3057, IS: 3066)
    
  • Dead-Fire Missiles (IS: year unknown)
    
  • Fragmentation Missiles (IS: 3050)
    
  • Heat-Seeking Warhead (IS and Clan: retained from Star League)
    
  • Listen-Kill Missiles (IS: 3042)
    
  • Magnetic Pulse Warhead (IS: 3057, production stops in 3065)
    
  • Mine-Clearance Missiles (IS: 3069)
    
  • Smoke Warhead (IS and Clan: retained from Star League)
• SRM-only (+MML):
  
  • Acid (AX) Warhead (IS: 3053)
    
  • Inferno Missiles (IS and Clan: retained from Star League)
    
  • Retro-Streak Warhead (IS: "late 3050s")
    
  • Standard Short-Range Missiles (IS and Clan: Retained from Star League)
    
  • Tandem-Charge Warhead (IS: "early 3050s")
    
  • Tear Gas (IS: retained from Star League)
• Arrow IV only:
  
  • Air-Defense Arrow Missiles (IS: 3068)
    
  • Arrow IV Homing Missiles (IS: 3044)
    
  • Cluster Arrow Missiles (IS: 3047)
    
  • Illumination Arrow Missiles (IS: 3047)
    
  • Inferno-IV Missiles (IS: 3055)
    
  • Laser-Inhibiting Warhead (IS: 3053)
    
  • Thunder Arrow Missiles (Clans: retained from Star League; IS: 3051)
• Narc-only:
  
  • Bola Pod (IS: 3057)
    
  • Explosive Pod (IS: 3058)
    
  • Homing Pod (Clan: Retained from Star League; IS: 3035)
    
  • Shoot-and-Sit Pod (IS: 3053)
• iNarc-only:
  
  • ECM Pod (IS: 3062+)
    
  • Haywire Pod (IS: 3062+)
    
  • Homing Pod (IS: 3062)
    
  • Nemesis Pod (IS: 3062+)

Missile types that are known to be canonically available to either the IS or the Clans as of 3050 are in bold.

Missile types for which no specific year of (re)introduction to the IS could be found and could conceivably be canonically available to the IS and/or Clans in/around 3050 are in italics.

Additional munition types include Flare LRMs (available to the IS in 3054; see page 230 of TechManual), Incendiary LRMs (available to the IS in 3053; see page 230 of TechManual).

Note that some of the specialized launchers (such as ATM launchers, Extended LRM launchers, Streak SRM & Streak LRM launchers) cannot (in BattleTech) make use of some or any of the alternate munition types, and that some munition types are (in BattleTech) specific to one type of missile system (LRM or SRM) and may not be used by the other.
Additionally, some of the alternate munition types are not (canonically) compatible with certain missile-related technologies (such as the Artemis FCS and Narc beacons).

Additionally, here is a list of special munitions available to Standard ACs (and the Light ACs), from Sarna.net:

• Armor-piercing (AP) munitions (as distinct from the "standard" (HEAP) munitions) were prototyped by the FedSuns in 3053, and went into production in 3059.
  
• Caseless munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3055.
  
• Flak munitions were produced in 2310 for anti-air duty and have been available since, but were only occasionally popular (due to the superior anti-'Mech capabilities of the cluster rounds used by the LB-X series... when they were in production and available).
  
• Flechette munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3055.
  
• Precision munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3062.
  
• Tracer munitions were produced in 2300 and have been available since.

The older Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised) also mentions (on page 133) Incendiary munitions as being available for autocannons & having twice the cost as Standard (HEAP) shells, but does not mention a year-of-availability.

What would be canonically available for Standard ACs as of 3050/3051 is: Standard (HEAP) shells, Flak shells, Tracer shells, and possibly Incendiary shells (which could be implemented as adding heat to a target but dealing less direct damage, similar to a Plasma Rifle round in dealing both damage and heat to a target).

Note that, in BattleTech, neither the LB-X nor the Ultra autocannons can use special munitions (nor can the Rotary ACs or Hyper-Velocity ACs).

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I believe that it would add substantial amounts of additional depth and excitement to the game to see some or all of these alternate munition types made available for their respective weapon systems.

Thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 12 May 2014 - 05:09 PM.

[Davers]

We will not see these items in game for a very long time, if ever.

[Prezimonto]

Strum Wealh, on 26 April 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Thoughts?

Yes, please?

I want?

Gimmie, Gimmie, Gimmie!

and other variations on the theme.

Are there mine laying variations?

[Ashaira]

Would love for multiple ammunition types and be able to switch between what i bring with me in the mech. Might actually bring variety back.

[Strum Wealh]

Prezimonto, on 26 April 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

Yes, please?

I want?

Gimmie, Gimmie, Gimmie!

and other variations on the theme.

Are there mine laying variations?

The Thunder/FASCAM Arrow IV missiles are reintroduced to the IS in 3051, and the Thunder/FASCAM LRMs are reintroduced to the IS in 3052.

Both are retained by the Clans from the days of the Star League.

There are even several different types of mines (though, most of those are not recovered/invented until the late 3050s).
Also, one of Beagle's additional abilities in BattleTech (under the advanced gameplay rules found in Tactical Operations) is being able to detect hidden minefields.

[mithril coyote]

Strum Wealh, on 26 April 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

The Thunder/FASCAM Arrow IV missiles are reintroduced to the IS in 3051, and the Thunder/FASCAM LRMs are reintroduced to the IS in 3052.

Both are retained by the Clans from the days of the Star League.

There are even several different types of mines (though, most of those are not recovered/invented until the late 3050s).
Also, one of Beagle's additional abilities in BattleTech (under the advanced gameplay rules found in Tactical Operations) is being able to detect hidden minefields.

Thunder LRM ammo only drops standard mines. the other types require placement by ground troops the traditional way.

[Strum Wealh]

mithril coyote, on 26 April 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

Thunder LRM ammo only drops standard mines. the other types require placement by ground troops the traditional way.

"Originally developed by the Terran Hegemony to scatter conventional minefields, Thunder LRMs were lost for most of the Succession Wars, only to be recovered soon after the Clan invasion. The 3050s then saw an explosion of alternative minefield types deployed in this method - all introduced by the Capellan Confederation." (TacOps, pg. 372)

"Thunder LRMs (and their variants: Thunder-Active LRMs, Thunder-Augmented LRMs, Thunder-Inferno LRMs, and Thunder-Vibrabomb LRMs) use the same rules as standard LRM missiles..." (TacOps, pg. 372)

Thunder LRMs (and Thunder Arrows) can deliver a variety of different mine types.

[Strum Wealh]

So... it seems like the idea of mines & mine-laying is quite popular.

How do people feel about the other munition types?

[Mystere]

Strum Wealh, on 26 April 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Thoughts?

[Strum Wealh]

Mystere, on 27 April 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

And to that I say...

[Strum Wealh]

Bump, for great justice & the promotion of further discussion of alternate munition types...

[Captain Stiffy]

There are literally hundreds of weapons in BT if you count all the variants. I really want to see more of the wild stuff in the game.

I wish they didn't care about period or timeline at all. They threw so much other cannon out the window so why not just give us cool stuff now?

Strum Wealh, on 26 April 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

• 
  
  • Follow-the-Leader Warhead (IS: 3049, production stops in 3054)

The QQ would be so enormous.

[FupDup]

Some of these ammo types wouldn't translate very well into in a game where the only objective is for mechs to kill other mechs, but there are certainly a few that could work.

Edited by FupDup, 12 May 2014 - 04:59 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Captain Stiffy, on 12 May 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

The QQ would be so enormous.

Depends on how its done, IMO.

I could imagine that launchers loaded with FTL (not superluminal! ) missiles would be implemented as firing one "leader" missile, then firing the other "n" missiles after a short delay; the other missiles home in on wherever/whatever the leader hits, be it the intended target or the terrain.

FupDup, on 12 May 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

Some of these ammo types wouldn't translate very well into in a game where the only objective is for mechs to kill other mechs, but there are certainly a few that could work.

IMO, the vast majority of the listed munitions (that is, everything other than Fragmentation Missiles, Tear Gas Missiles, Air Defense Arrow IV Missiles, and Tracer AC shells... and maybe Flare LRMs) could (eventually) be useful in 'Mech-based combat.
Though, I will concede that some would be clearly better - or clearly inferior to - others in that regard.

Which stand out to you, in each case?

[Psydotek]

If anything, the LB10X should at least be able to switch between solid slug/flak munitions.

[Captain Stiffy]

Strum Wealh, on 12 May 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Depends on how its done, IMO.

I could imagine that launchers loaded with FTL (not superluminal! ) missiles would be implemented as firing one "leader" missile, then firing the other "n" missiles after a short delay; the other missiles home in on wherever/whatever the leader hits, be it the intended target or the terrain.


IMO, the vast majority of the listed munitions (that is, everything other than Fragmentation Missiles, Tear Gas Missiles, Air Defense Arrow IV Missiles, and Tracer AC shells... and maybe Flare LRMs) could (eventually) be useful in 'Mech-based combat.
Though, I will concede that some would be clearly better - or clearly inferior to - others in that regard.

Which stand out to you, in each case?

The point of the FTL missiles is that they are all supposed to hit a single critical location on the target. In MWO that would be crazy OP at worst and if balanced right the QQ would be enormous anyway.

I would LOVE to see more of the stuff in the BT universe being used. I just think missiles aren't a great place to start or even talk about right now.

But definitely the counter-ECM missiles could work in the game if done right.

Also THUNDER LRMS!! woooo that would be fun and not OP.

And where are the MRM's anyway?

[Strum Wealh]

Psydotek, on 12 May 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

If anything, the LB10X should at least be able to switch between solid slug/flak munitions.

This is true - and we know from MDB #15 (linked in the opening post) that PGI's initial/current plan is to allow the Clan LB-X ACs to be able to switch between Cluster & Slug munitions, but not allow the IS LB 10-X AC to do the same for concern of rendering the Standard AC/10 "obsolete".

Though, if the Standard AC/10 had access to a wider variety of alternate munitions (Standard (HEAP) shells, Flak shells, and Incendiary shells... with more becoming available as the game develops and the in-game timeline progresses/jumps) than the LB 10-X (which would only ever have access to Cluster rounds and Slug rounds), perhaps they might reconsider?

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Captain Stiffy, on 12 May 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

The point of the FTL missiles is that they are all supposed to hit a single critical location on the target. In MWO that would be crazy OP at worst and if balanced right the QQ would be enormous anyway.

I would LOVE to see more of the stuff in the BT universe being used. I just think missiles aren't a great place to start or even talk about right now.

But definitely the counter-ECM missiles could work in the game if done right.

Also THUNDER LRMS!! woooo that would be fun and not OP.

And where are the MRM's anyway?

The actual point of FTL (Follow the Leader) Missiles is that they, as the name suggests, "followed the leader" - wherever the "leader" goes, the rest follow.
If the "leader" hits a given 'Mech hitbox, the rest all focus on - and strike - that hitbox.
If the "leader" runs into a piece of terrain, the rest all mindlessly dive into the same patch of terrain.
One gets focused damage in one place, or a complete miss - much like the current implementation of non-MG ballistics.

MRM launchers are introduced in-universe by the Draconis Combine in 3058, and are unable to make use of special munitions in BattleTech.

[Mister Blastman]

They can't code proper balance... and you want them to try to code alternate munitions?

MWO kitty says:

[Captain Stiffy]

Strum Wealh, on 12 May 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

This is true - and we know from MDB #15 (linked in the opening post) that PGI's initial/current plan is to allow the Clan LB-X ACs to be able to switch between Cluster & Slug munitions, but not allow the IS LB 10-X AC to do the same for concern of rendering the Standard AC/10 "obsolete".

Though, if the Standard AC/10 had access to a wider variety of alternate munitions (Standard (HEAP) shells, Flak shells, and Incendiary shells... with more becoming available as the game develops and the in-game timeline progresses/jumps) than the LB 10-X (which would only ever have access to Cluster rounds and Slug rounds), perhaps they might reconsider?

----------


The actual point of FTL (Follow the Leader) Missiles is that they, as the name suggests, "followed the leader" - wherever the "leader" goes, the rest follow.
If the "leader" hits a given 'Mech hitbox, the rest all focus on - and strike - that hitbox.
If the "leader" runs into a piece of terrain, the rest all mindlessly dive into the same patch of terrain.
One gets focused damage in one place, or a complete miss - much like the current implementation of non-MG ballistics.

MRM launchers are introduced in-universe by the Draconis Combine in 3058, and are unable to make use of special munitions in BattleTech.

Right, the only difference between LRM's now and FTL LRM's would be that FTL LRM's either miss entirely (as LRM's currently function anyway) or hit and do ALL the salvo damage to a single crit location. Insanely OP. I'm imagining the FTL LRM 60-75 that I'd immediately build. Instant cores with any hit.

[FupDup]

Strum Wealh, on 12 May 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

IMO, the vast majority of the listed munitions (that is, everything other than Fragmentation Missiles, Tear Gas Missiles, Air Defense Arrow IV Missiles, and Tracer AC shells... and maybe Flare LRMs) could (eventually) be useful in 'Mech-based combat.
Though, I will concede that some would be clearly better - or clearly inferior to - others in that regard.

Which stand out to you, in each case?

The ones that are outwardly apparent to me:


Follow-The-Leader LRMs: Current LRMs don't use the random targeting hits table from TT, so these might be basically useless or at best not offer any real benefit over normal ammo. Current LRMs tend to clump around center mass, or hit the legs of fast targets.

Fragmentation Missiles: No infantry to attack, and even if we did have infantry it would be more efficient (tonnage wise) to just sweep over infantry with a Medium Laser (beam duration FTW) than dedicate tonnage to specialized ammo.

Acid SRMs: Crap against non-Ferro armor, which means the vast majority of targets in MWO.

Tear Gas: Incapable of killing any kind of target, not even infantry (which MWO doesn't even have).

Flak AC ammo: No aircraft, and I would rather use LBX cluster rounds or hitscan lasers to shoot down planes anyways.

Flechette AC ammo: Same problems as Fragmentation LRMs (MWO's beam-duration lasers would be murderous against infantry for way less tonnage and more anti-mech damage, and we don't even have infantry in the first place).

Heat Seeking Missiles: Don't seem to have any real benefit over normal ammo (which hit hot and cold targets with equal prejudice).

Air-Defense Arrow: The closest thing to airborne targets we have are JJ'ing mechs, which can be killed with any weapon type. Also, they can just let go of space bar to become immune to this ammo type.

Cluster Arrow: Sarna doesn't describe it very well, but I'm getting the impression that they're another ammo type focused on anti-infantry.

Illumination Arrow: Everybody has alternate vision modes that work at medium-short range to "illuminate" targets, and at long range it's probably kind of silly to be using such a heavy and bulky missile system (the Arrow IV) for making things more visible. Increasing our own gamma/brightness via the in-game options menu can bypass any lack of visibility at night, or at least could if it wasn't broken right now (has no effect). Also, we only have 1 night map.

Tracer AC ammo: See Illumination Arrow issues.

Edited by FupDup, 12 May 2014 - 06:17 PM.