44 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Heh, that rhymes.

On topic, I had some debate in another thread about the overwhelming effectiveness of Artillery Strike (on lesser account the Air Strike as well) as a module, at the expense of others.

http://mwomercs.com/...e-to-nerf-arty/

It was always my stance that Strikes do too much damage in a very short amount of time. I wish to change it somehow to bring it in line with other modules.

That opinion of mine had been met with applause, as well as opposition. The basic argument on why Artillery Strike should stay as is, boils down to this:

Quote

Artillery Strike is supposed to hurt--because its artillery.

That makes it very simple. If artillery is supposed to hurt, just by the virtue of being artillery strike, then lets bring the delivery time more artillery like.

Taking account of MWO autocannon velocity as somewhere between 600-2000 meters per second (mps), and real life artillery shell having 700-1500 mps velocity, let's say MWO artillery shell has 1000 mps.

Any commander worth his salt would not risk his artillery train to be over run by enemy mechs, so he should station his artillery about 10 kilometers or more, away from the battlefield. Since modern artillery mostly has minimum range of 5 kilometers (cause the shell arches) and max range of 30+ kilometers, that sounds about right. So an artillery shell with 1000 mps velocity will take more than 10 seconds to reach the target--due to the arching nature of the delivery.

If we include the time to relay orders and coordinates, acknowledge orders and coordinates, realign the barrel, and load the shell to fire, plus the distance, it will probably take around 25-30 seconds for a strike to land once the smoke signal has been given. So, 30 seconds it is then.

But that's too long!

Well honey, it is artillery, it is supposed to take some time to arrive.

Ok, that was not cool. For the sake of balance (unlike those who argue for the sake of semantics), let's halve the projected time, and make it 12-15 seconds the time it takes for the shells to land after the smoke signal has been given. That's plenty of time for people to notice the smoke/warn others on chat to get away, and only the most tunnel visioned or brain dead pilots will be caught in the full blast.

But I can't get sweet kills and damage scores if the delivery time is changed to 12-15 seconds!

Actually, by forcing the enemy to move out of their hiding spots and scattering their dense formation, the module has already done enough to ensure many advantages to be taken. Just gotta know when and how to take advantage of it.

Such change will ensure that Artillery Module will become a situational module, in line with all the other ones, as opposed to a must have module on any and all type of mechs. Module is not supposed to be game changer, after all.

Naturally airstrike should also get the same treatment--12-15 seconds, even though it will take much longer for the air force to scramble their jets and lift off to deliver the payload.

Type away!

Edited by El Bandito, 29 April 2014 - 11:04 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Taken from that thread....

lockwoodx, on 28 April 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

I'd be ok if it was devastating, provided the time between smoke and actual strike are widened greatly.
Red Smoke: You have 10 seconds to move or else....

I'm glad you support my idea, because I support this thread.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nice to see ideas that tweak the peripherals and not the meat. Arty could be a Random distance from the battle and thus not have a set splash time.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 April 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Nice to see ideas that tweak the peripherals and not the meat. Arty could be a Random distance from the battle and thus not have a set splash time.

That was exactly my line of thought. Smoke appears then dissapates within 4-5 seconds. Those other 5 seconds catch some players off guard requiring those who saw the smoke while it was still there to actually report it or hinder their own team.

Now the numbers don't have to be absolute, just expressing which direction the train of thought was heading.

[Lyoto Machida]

lockwoodx, on 29 April 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

That was exactly my line of thought. Smoke appears then dissapates within 4-5 seconds. Those other 5 seconds catch some players off guard requiring those who saw the smoke while it was still there to actually report it or hinder their own team.

Now the numbers don't have to be absolute, just expressing which direction the train of thought was heading.

This would actually be great if there was a module for fake smoke that didn't actually call in arty. Maybe you get 3 fake smoke shots for a module slot.

[Almond Brown]

12-15 seconds after the smoke eh!

Ok what other modules do I need to load in now to replace these new, and totally useless, the Air and Arty at those times. That cluster you want to disband, will disband and re-band before you can take advantage of the Strike. Unless you rush them during the drop timer, and that likely won't go very well...

[Joseph Mallan]

Lyoto Machida, on 29 April 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

This would actually be great if there was a module for fake smoke that didn't actually call in arty. Maybe you get 3 fake smoke shots for a module slot.

Sneaky!

[Mystere]

I'll take the bait ( ) ...

Since you are essentially converting the module into an area denial weapon (12-15 seconds is a long time, significantly reducing the chance of hitting anything short of a traffic jam of legged mechs), the following change should also be made:

• replace the smoke with TAG designation for 5 seconds

Or if you insist on smoke:

• smoke duration is only 5 seconds
  
• create a 3/5-shot smoke module for non-existent artillery

[Hans Von Lohman]

Good ideas, but we're not trying to simulate real life. This is BattleTech with giant robots with lasers in their frikken heads. <kisses his pinky>

So far I am happy with artillery as it is.

The only improvement that I think would be good is actually audio. It needs to have the whine of the shells hitting, and for those that don't know the shell lands, explodes, and THEN you hear the whistle of the shell. They're faster than the speed of sound, so it works like that.

[Mystere]

Hans Von Lohman, on 29 April 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Good ideas, but we're not trying to simulate real life. This is BattleTech with giant robots with lasers in their frikken heads. <kisses his pinky>

So far I am happy with artillery as it is.

The only improvement that I think would be good is actually audio. It needs to have the whine of the shells hitting, and for those that don't know the shell lands, explodes, and THEN you hear the whistle of the shell. They're faster than the speed of sound, so it works like that.

Apparently, there are those who are quite (to put it ever so mildly) unhappy. So I am making it my business to make sure artillery remains viable and not practically useless.

[Mechteric]

I'd only accept a 10+ second timer if they got rid of the smoke that alerts all enemies to where its going to strike at. It would likely be better if instead it were a TAG-like laser that you had to keep within X meters of the point of origin for a few seconds or so.


But that all is probably a bit complicated to add in, so I'd just be happy with a 20-30 second team timer (shared between arty and air strike) to help balance them as they are now.

[Trauglodyte]

My only issue is that there is only the most minute level of skill involved in application. You put your cross hairs on a spot and hit the button all while you either run away from (Light mechs) or you stay in your spot while continuing to fire your weapons. One could argue that the cost inherent in the module is that it is a one time use module which makes its value dependent upon it getting used and used wisely all while costing cbills (laughable) or MC (damned expensive). The point is, though, that it can be devestating if used correctly and you lose nothing by carrying it. Furthermore, looking at the passive modules available, there isn't really anything else that is as powerful as Artillery/Air Strikes.

So, yes, apply a TAG like system requirement while doing away with the smoke and add in an actual Smoke module that would create an area of effect of the same width (Artillery) and length (Air) to obscure the vision of your opponents.

[nimdabew]

Personally, I think arty should be FOE, or you designate a spot, it shoots 20 seconds after it has been designated, but the bombardment area is MUCH bigger, each shell does less dmg, but there are a total of about 20 shells in a 100M radius, over the course of 10 seconds. What we have now are precision air strikes from close air support in the form of cluster bombs.

Also, no smoke. It should be call in coordinates, shells come in 20 seconds later, and thats it.

[Rofl]

nimdabew, on 29 April 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

Personally, I think arty should be FOE, or you designate a spot, it shoots 20 seconds after it has been designated, but the bombardment area is MUCH bigger, each shell does less dmg, but there are a total of about 20 shells in a 100M radius, over the course of 10 seconds.

FOE?

http://www.acronymattic.com/FOE.html

Quote

What we have now are precision air strikes from close air support in the form of cluster bombs.

Maybe arty can be the new air strike?

Quote

Also, no smoke. It should be call in coordinates, shells come in 20 seconds later, and thats it.

Because we really need more effects without warning. ECM caused a shit storm because of its stealth nature. Imagine what stealth arty blasts will do.

[nimdabew]

It would get people to stop camping wouldn't it? I meant FFE, not FOE. Fire for effect is just blast away with a set number of shells as fast as they can at a set of coordinates. Inbstead of smoke, maybe an audible warning similar to missiles incoming, like Artiliary Detected. It would get people moving when they heard it AND still give some kind of warning.

As for ECM, i still think mechs should pay for sensors like in MCG. Basic sensors (free), 350M range. Intermediate (tonnage), 450M range. Advanced (tonnage), 670M range. ECM halves those ranges. BAP increases ranges by 25-50%.

[El Bandito]

Trauglodyte, on 29 April 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

My only issue is that there is only the most minute level of skill involved in application. You put your cross hairs on a spot and hit the button all while you either run away from (Light mechs) or you stay in your spot while continuing to fire your weapons. One could argue that the cost inherent in the module is that it is a one time use module which makes its value dependent upon it getting used and used wisely all while costing cbills (laughable) or MC (damned expensive). The point is, though, that it can be devestating if used correctly and you lose nothing by carrying it. Furthermore, looking at the passive modules available, there isn't really anything else that is as powerful as Artillery/Air Strikes. So, yes, apply a TAG like system requirement while doing away with the smoke and add in an actual Smoke module that would create an area of effect of the same width (Artillery) and length (Air) to obscure the vision of your opponents.

Yeah, the skill level to plant Artillery strike is very low. Lights can do it blindfolded. Hell, my A1 can jump in, plant a good one, and jump out alive.

[Screech]

Arty/Air still is the easiest damage to avoid in game. You have to be oblivious to your surroundings in order for it to be dangerous. Sure Arty/Air strikes are the second easiest weapon to use in the game but at least you need LoS to pull it off.

[Livewyr]

Your idea would be better. (Trust me, I'm ex-mortar... small arty)

Two things:
1: It should hit really hard, perhaps a larger saturation area (maybe significantly more shells with less damage) as well.
2: Replace the silly smoke signal. (Really? Smoke signals? Not like your firebase is going to see it.)
---Instead: Both sides are given an audio/visual warning about indirect fire. (Based in even current tech)
---Friendly mechs see a special artillery marker on the battlemap/radar.

[Joseph Mallan]

Livewyr, on 30 April 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

Your idea would be better. (Trust me, I'm ex-mortar... small arty)

Two things:
1: It should hit really hard, perhaps a larger saturation area (maybe significantly more shells with less damage) as well.
2: Replace the silly smoke signal. (Really? Smoke signals? Not like your firebase is going to see it.)
---Instead: Both sides are given an audio/visual warning about indirect fire. (Based in even current tech)
---Friendly mechs see a special artillery marker on the battlemap/radar.

This has my attention! Its goo to hear from someone in the field chime in sir!

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Livewyr, on 30 April 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

Your idea would be better. (Trust me, I'm ex-mortar... small arty)

Two things:
1: It should hit really hard, perhaps a larger saturation area (maybe significantly more shells with less damage) as well.
2: Replace the silly smoke signal. (Really? Smoke signals? Not like your firebase is going to see it.)
---Instead: Both sides are given an audio/visual warning about indirect fire. (Based in even current tech)
---Friendly mechs see a special artillery marker on the battlemap/radar.

I love this. The audio warning should be linked to the grid the arty is dropping in. With only 1 drop at a time allowed per side there wouldn't be any confusion or crosstalk. Simply "WARNING: Atmospheric breach detected in grid B4. Estimated impact in ten seconds. Vacate the area immediately."

edit: To expand on this, PGI could kill two birds with one stone and also balance modules strikes by confining the target distance to the grid you're in. That way the pilot would have to physically be in the grid they want to use the module in before launching it. Then then command module comes into play allowing the pilot to simply open their battlegrid and pick which grid they wish to drop it.

Edited by lockwoodx, 30 April 2014 - 06:45 AM.