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Conquest + Tanks


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#1 Naduk

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 09:33 PM

CONQUEST + TANKS

Any numbers or stats mentioned are purely speculative and would not likely resemble final balance of any system developed but instead intend to convey the core of my ideas.
As we now have working turrets in game i would go out on a limb and say
Battle tanks are just turrets that can move.

I am sure its a lot more complicated than that however the base work is there to build upon and the turrets track, lock and fire on enemy mechs.
Thus i propose some upgrades to Conquest in the same vein that Assault got turrets.
But instead of Turrets we use TANKS!

Having tanks roll around the battle zone would make Conquest feel a lot more like a struggle for control over terrain instead of skirmish with optional objectives.

Fielding Tanks
The starting node in conquest would act as the primary base.
Every 3mins a new wave of tanks would spawn from the primary base.
(a dropship or hanger nearby would act as the spawner)
Each wave would consist of
1 tank per player.
2 tanks per owned node.
2 tanks per player dead on spawning team.
At spawn tanks would advance towards the highest priority target within detection range.

If the primary base is lost, tanks will not spawn, the spawn timer will count to zero and pause.
When the primary node is re-captured the timer will resume and tanks spawn again.
A player cannot spawn a Tank that is in a bigger weight class than their own mech.

Tank Life
contrary to BT Lore, tanks should be fairly soft, not quite as fragile as MW4 ground units but close.
making tanks easy to kill but dangerous if ignored would create a more powerful “mechs are powerful” experience for players

Light.........HP15 (death from 3x Medium laser hits)
Medium....HP25 (death from 5x Medium laser hits)
Heavy.......HP35 (death from 7x Medium laser hits)
Assault.....HP45 (death from 9x Medium laser hits)

Keep in mind these units will often be encountered in groups and while it will not take much to bring them down, they will carry the same grade weapons that mechs carry making the damage add up to very significant values over short periods of time.

Tank Behavior
Tanks would operate fairly independently for the most part with players able to herd them in certain situations
Tanks will detect objects within a set radius of their current position and are always lured towards the highest value object in detection range.
Hostile node......900m.....(Priority 1)
Enemy units......800m.....(Priority 2)
Neutral node.....650m.....(Priority 3)
Allied units........840m.....(Priority 4)
Allied node.......1200m....(Priority 5)

Enemy nodes would be prioritized over allies so a tank or tank group would follow allies until they found a node.
This would allow player to lead groups of tanks to unusual parts of the map for special tactics.
A Hostile node would be prioritized over a neutral or friendly node.
when a tank is within in range of multiple objects of equal priority it will choose one at random to follow

If a tank gets separated from the mech it was following it would travel towards the primary node, searching for new allies or enemy nodes along the way.
Separation includes death of the mech, loss of sensors(ecm), powering down and similar situations.

Combat
killing tanks would provide XP/CB just like turrets.
Tanks can neutralize and capture nodes.
Tanks target the closest enemy unit.
If the tank is equipped with LRM then they would prioritize targets that are narc'd or tagged first followed by closest enemy (in case of multi tagged units)
Tanks would receive targeting data from all allied units but not provide it unless they are have advanced sensors.

There are many tank units within the BT universe.
So the default tank unit should be something simple like the Scorpion.
This allows for a whole new set of modules and consumables that can revolve around tank upgrades.

Tank modules

Blitz
Upgrade tank spawn to 2 instead of 1 per wave when counting this player. Dead player counter is also increased by 1

Invaders
Tanks spawned by player will prioritize allied players over nodes, specifically the owner, allied player detection range increased to 1300m.

Guardians
Tanks spawned by player will patrol between all owned nodes and not follow players at all. If a node is being captured by enemy forces guardian tanks will set the under attack node as their next waypoint(after the one they are currently on route to).

Skirmishers
Tanks spawned by player will roam towards an enemy node, after firing 2 or 3 times it will retreat to the nearest friendly node and wait for 20-30 seconds before roaming again.
Skirmishers will follow players for the duration of their wait period unless they are within 500m of the retreat from node.

Scout
Tanks spawned by player will be from the scout variants of allowed weight class.
Scout units relay enemy target data just like players. example(light), example(heavy)
Scout units will attempt to avoid combat by not advancing closer than 700m towards enemy units.

Medium tank
Tanks spawned by player are selected from the medium weight class.
Changes weapon load out and armor stats. example

Heavy tank
Tanks spawned by player are selected from the heavy weight class.
Changes weapon load out and armor stats. example

Assault tank
Tanks spawned by player are selected from the Assault weight class.
Changes weapon load out and armor stats. example

Wheels
Tanks spawned by player are selected from the wheel variants of allowed weight class.
Changes movement type, weapon load out and armor stats. example

Hover
Tanks spawned by player are selected from the hover variants of allowed weight class.
Changes movement type, weapon load out and armor stats. example

LRM carriers
Changes weapon load out and armor stats. Does NOT change weight class or movement type.example
can be combined with movement type mods

PPC carriers
Changes weapon load out and armor stats. Does NOT change weight class or movement type. example
can be combined with movement type mods

Deep Strike
spawns 2 tanks with the player on any game mode, these tanks will exclusively follow their owner.

*EDIT*
i had originally designed this with purely conquest in mind
however it would work very well on all game modes
even skirmish would benefit as players who take modules for tank units would be given a once off spawn of units that follow them
this way should you be decked out with support modules for your tanks you would not be completely screwed when something other than conq rolled around or you take that mech into Community Warfare

Edited by Naduk, 30 November 2014 - 04:27 PM.


#2 GunnyKintaro 01

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 09:50 PM

Great idea!!! :angry:

#3 Naduk

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 03:46 PM

had another thought
perhaps there should be a limit on the tank class module so that all 12 players cannot take Assault tanks
the easiest way would be to set the limit to match your chassis weight class
that way when 4x3 comes back into effect tank weights will be balanced by mech weights

#4 Ningyo

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 04:32 PM

fine idea but the number of tanks you suggest is crazy. Lets look at the most common situation in conquest.

Each team starts having one node. Each team rushes an grabs nearest node taking about 1-2 mins to capture it.

So at this point each team has 24 tanks spawn, then 1-2 mins later another 14 tanks spawn. THATS 36 tanks per team heading out there.

Now normally one team has more lights an rushes the extra spawn so they would have another 24 tanks in that first 3 mins for a total of 50!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Plus having it be based on number of living players makes games become rolls even easier once a team loses a couple players.

___________________________________________________________

Maybe something like 1 tank every 3 mins, and the size of tank is determined by how many you control.

so 1 node = 15-25 ton tank, 3 nodes 55-65 ton tank, 5 nodes 95-100 ton tank.

#5 Naduk

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 06:05 AM

i should of prefaced that any numbers i mentioned were purely for example
they were after all just pulled out of the blue, any system developed would need tight balancing

that said even with 50 tanks per team i dont see it being an issue as majority of the time they would be shooting each other
(a bit like a moba and their minions/creeps)

i would imagine tanks are pretty easy for a mech to kill, my thinking was an Assault tank would be almost as tough as a current base turret, otherwise tanks would still be the dominant weapon of the age.
tanks only have 1 hit location making them very fragile, as far as i know they cannot field the advanced armour that mechs use either, something about mech construction techniques i think it was....(i kinda imagine them as fragile as they were in MW4 for balance sake)
their accuracy would need to be way lower than the current base turrets also, their squishyness would not matter if you rounded a corner to face 50x AC5's, so yeah there would need to be a lot of missing on their behalf

that is a very valid point about the team rollings, what if it was the other way around
that would make a fair bit of sense,in an RTS if your team is losing you send in more backup to a battle
so if tank spawns were based on players dead, that might act as a counter weight to game stomps

linking tank size to number of nodes owned would have the same roll over effect as the number of alive players idea
i think it would still be best to tie tank size to modules/mech size
this would allow players to field units to assist with their play style or battle plan (amazing competitive opportunities there)
it would also give players more options than just seismic and air/arty

thanks for the ideas Ningyo

Edited by Naduk, 05 June 2014 - 06:07 AM.


#6 Ningyo

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:56 AM

I was assuming based on your post that you meant for them to be a lot like the tanks from BT lore. These have I believe 4-5 armor hit locations (front,back,right,left,turret) and a single internal pool.

I am not certain on the internals though. They also tend to have armaments similar to stock mechs of the same weight. You can check Sarna.net for a lot of info on all the different ones.

As an Example though the 60 ton Tokugawa tank has an LB-10x (3t ammo), ASRM 6 (2t ammo), an 2 med pulse lasers. Also has I think 9 tons of armor (198 points an average of 40 per location probably 60 front 20 rear type thing), and goes 65 Kph.

Its not going to beat your upgraded mechs, but it could do serious damage.

#7 Naduk

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 04:21 PM

you could have them be that strong (mw2 had ground units that tough)
but they were very slow with their reaction speeds, you could easily run rings around a ground unit even with the large mechs
their turret turn rates were so low they could not keep pace with the mechs maneuverability, yet if you just stood there and faced off with them, they would do some serious damage and could even take you out
this made the lighter faster units like savanna masters a huge deadly annoyance when they ran in big enough packs

if they do tanks as strong as BT lore then we would need to be very careful with their placement and numbers
while less tanks that were tougher would be fine, but i believe more tanks that were easier to kill would make mechs feel more powerful and back up the justification for why the player is in one at all

my thinking for tank units is they should play a major role in immersion allowing the player to believe they are taking place in a battle that has relevance to an ongoing and larger conflict
where currently it feels like Solaris matches with artillery support

i imagine it would pretty amazing to run a scout mech, collect a few tanks and take them around to flank a position that kicks off a larger battle or run a brawler with a few LRM carriers in tow or take an LRM boat with a few guardian brawler tanks or run a pack of hover lights to counter tank brawlers while you take out enemy LRM boats
there is just so much you could do with a good system,

#8 Lad

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 04:18 PM

I was thinking that one module could be to have a few tanks start with you as support. The better the module, the better the tank. Also I really miss blowing up tanks and helicopters. How are you supposed to feel as if you're in a giant machine if everything else is the same size as you????

#9 Naduk

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:41 PM

i agree Lad,

using the modules concepts from above
if you take Deep strike (for 2 personal tanks) then take Blitz (for +1 tank), then take a 3rd module to change the type
you could be a brawler atlas with 3 personal brawler assault tanks as well as spawning 2 of them per wave

you could create some pretty epic combinations

take a brawler heavy with the same setup and 3x LRM carriers to follow you around, always have LRM support, hot damn that would be cool, then some pesky scout finds your LRM carriers and toasts them.... JIMMY NNNNNOOOOOOOOO!!!!
or you could take a fast mech like a locust and take some fast hover tanks and really do some evil harass techniques

Air/Arty would play an even more important role as a strike could take out a whole platoon of tanks

#10 Koniving

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:48 PM

Doubt this will ever happen...
But it has tanks. I love BT's tanks and would love to see tank models in MWO (in any form).

The megamek battles posted here... after the Urban versus Tarantula, through the inspiration of the game mode idea... will have tanks versus mechs. ;)

Edited by Koniving, 06 June 2014 - 07:50 PM.


#11 Kalimaster

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 06:59 AM

First of all, I love tanks.

Now, I can see tanks replacing the turrets on Assault, but having tanks on conquest I don't think will work. A few special maps or solo or team missions would be great if tanks were used, but the current layout of the maps just does not seem practical for tanks. Take for example River City, they would simply pile up in the water.

Tanks need open ground to work effectively, and some of the urban combat maps we have are ill suited for these beasts of war. Sorry to put a bummer on this idea of yours, but otherwise I like the idea. ^_^

#12 Naduk

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:37 AM

why would water be an issue
normal tanks and wheeled units cannot cross it sure, but there is bridges to each of the main land sections on river city
so the normal tanks could just go the long way (for them would be the shortest possible route)
hover tanks could engage on theta or any other water flag with ease

where what tank can and cannot go would be covered by their movement archetype

i cannot think of any map where they would not function
even HPG would be fine, the multi level aspect can easily confuse a human, but to an AI its very clear where it can and cannot go, all it does is choose where it is going and the current easiest path to get there, if that changes for what ever reason (ie a mech standing in the way) it will choose the newest easiest path

as for urban battle
there are many many close range configured tanks, they would be just as happy as anything else in a urban environment

AI has not really suffered clumping into terrain barriers since 1995 RTS games
its 2014 guys, this is very very possible

#13 BlackDeathLegion

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:50 AM

OP* I love to hear folks share their Ideas for New Gamemodes or things to add to the 3 boring ones we currently have, but...
I seriously DOUBT PGI would be able to create/add things like this to MWO. LOL

#14 LiGhtningFF13

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:10 AM

Great idea, Bulldog tanks! But step by step, hey it's PGI! Just have to wait.

#15 Naduk

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:36 PM

if they could pull this off it would not be a big leap to get infantry support or VTOL's either
and of course more modules to go with them

#16 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:48 PM

Nice.

#17 Morglor

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:07 PM

WOW what great idea, looks solid hope pgi notice this post and comment with what they think even if its just a bit of input.

#18 Stardancer01

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:16 AM

I didn't read the main post past the word 'TANK', which is all I needed to know to press like.

#19 Naduk

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 08:02 AM

Kodiak made a great post regarding a similar idea for Infantry
i think they would be super cross compatible
might just have to do a full write up for ground and air support

i had not even considered consumables

#20 SneakyMasakari

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:22 PM

This sounds like a great idea. When can we have it up?





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